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Old November 28, 2008, 10:03 PM   #51
Shawn Dodson
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Nnobby45 writes:
Quote:
Is that how you really train to reload with your life on the line?

You tap, then attempt to rack as you roll the pistol to lose the smoke stack, but can't because the magazine is already racked (in lock back). Then, after it won't release, you realize the mag's empty, and that you need to reload the pistol. So you release the magazine and do a normal reload.

Interesting-- where'd you learn such a doctrine? What advantage does it have over the normal reload that would have your pistol recharged in half the time?
Yes. Anytime I press the trigger and the pistol doesn't fire I immediately perform Tap, Roll & Rack. I don't examine the pistol in attempt to diagnose the problem.

The problem can be more than a simple failure to eject (smoke stake). I can have a defective cartridge, an unseated magazine in which the slide cycles but no round is chambered, a depleted magazine, a failure to extract (doublefeed), etc. For any of these problems the immediate action is the same: Tap, Roll & Rack

If the pistol doesn't fire when I press the trigger again, I Reload.

I've trained until these are conditioned immediate actions. I can perform them very quickly. I can perform them in total darkness because I don't need to look at my pistol to diagnose the problem. I can progress through my immediate actions, clear a doublefeed and have the pistol running in less than 8 seconds - blindfolded.

Also I don't make any effort to detect that the slide is out of battery when I Rack. If Tap, Roll & Rack doesn't get the gun running I immediately progress to Reload. The slide can be out of battery due to a failure to extract (double feed), a depleted magazine, an improper grip that inadvertantly engaged the slide lock (possibly as a result of an injury or a wet pistol), or a failure to eject (stovepipe). If I suffer a stovepipe, and detect that the slide is out of battery, I don't want to assume that my magazine is depleted and perform an unecessary Reload.

Likewise if I train to detect that the slide is out of battery, and then perform such and such technique, I don't want to take it for granted that I'll detect that the slide is out of battery during a gunfight. Unexpected things happen during a gunfight - I know of a couple of dash cam videos of cops who drew their pistol, fired one round and were unable to get the pistol to fire again because they didn't relax their trigger finger to allow the trigger to reset. They stood there pressing and pressing the trigger. Stuff like this doesn't just happen to other people - it could happen to me, therefore I don't want to train for failure.

With combative techniques, reliable, positive manipulation is more important than pure speed. A competitive technique may be faster than a combative technique but its only faster if conditions allow it to be faster. The idea is to use a technique that works everytime - even in worst case conditions.

Simplicity of technique is important too, to minimize your mental load and allow you to focus outward on the danger to keep from being shot/cut/beaten instead of focusing inward on your equipment, which increases your risk.

I learned my combative techniques from Jeff Gonzales, a former Navy SEAL who operates TridentConcepts (www.tridentconcepts.com).

Cheers!
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Old November 28, 2008, 10:12 PM   #52
GetYerShells
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In reference to the OP. When I took my CCW course I was taught to rack the slide back after reloading to place another round into battery. My instructor stressed that we do not use the slide release to chamber a new round. I am not sure of his logic behind that but that's what I was taught and that's what I go by. Not saying either way is better, but that's what I learned.
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Old January 30, 2009, 10:31 PM   #53
Contrarian12
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Got a Sig. I never have the previously referred to problem of hitting the slide release inadvertently.

LEO Glock armorer told me the Glock factory recommends slingshot. This is due to the fact that polymers have more flexibility than aluminum, titanium, or steel and dampen the effect of the slide moving forwards. So you need to get every little bit of oomph you can from the slide.

This tidbit also correlates with the fact that the greater flexiblity of polymer slides dampens the recoil energy of a fired Glock, so that the Glock is more senstive than most pistols to firmness of grip - in other words, you need a firmer grip with a Glock.

Or any other polymer framed pistol.

And that all makes sense to my mechanical engineer brain. Plus I slept at a holiday inn express a few weeks ago.

Contrarian...
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Old January 30, 2009, 10:32 PM   #54
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Anybody know what the US GI .45 Colt semi-automatic pistol manual says?
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Old January 30, 2009, 11:00 PM   #55
Nnobby45
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Quote:
Sorry to dissagree with your instructor but I also am an instructor. The weapons were designed to be released by the slide release. I have not seen the slide released on any police range unless the officer was doing a weak hand reload simulating an injured strong hand.
Mr. Gaston Glock did not intend for his slide to be released with the slide stop. He'd have designed one easy to operate.

Slide stops aren't in the same place on all guns. The manual release works well for anything, especially under stress.

On the other hand, there are good instructors who teach using the slide stop, but I suspect their students are armed with the same pistol, maybe in a LE environment. Some students may have been taught to use the stop no matter what pistol they're using.

There's no faster way, to load a 1911 than to "speed" load using the slide stop. It seems built for it and it's natural. (though, you're less likley to get a 6 o'clock malfunction {nost dive} with manual release).

Sig's slides can be dropped one handed with strong thumb, since the stop is in the rear, but you compromise your grip doing it.

Try finding the Glock's slide stop under stress. Note that it doesn't release as easily as other slide stops.

As a John Farnum student, I learned the over hand manual release (tactical reload). John doesn't teach gun specific techniques since his students show up with all varieties of pistols and John is a believer in students learning how to operate all manners of different arms.

Last edited by Nnobby45; January 30, 2009 at 11:06 PM.
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Old February 2, 2009, 10:16 PM   #56
Striker1
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Interesting conversation (though not a new one). Everytime I hear this I wonder , for those who like the idea that only gross motor skills should be used, if that is so, how can anyone be expected to find the itty bitty magazine release or as someone mentioned earlier, place the fully loaded magazine between the pinky and ring finger while ripping the offending magazine out and manipulating the slide?

I agree Glocks and other pistols with small slide stops may be better operated by the overhand/slingshot method and others (1911) with the slide stop, however, what about weapons like the Beretta M92? Anyone ever seen those placed on safe when "overhanding" the slide? I agree learning "a way" that works with "most" pistols might be a good choice, but it might not work with all.

In the end I think it is wise to know your weapon and become proficient in it's operation.

Shoot safe!
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Old February 2, 2009, 10:58 PM   #57
orionengnr
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Good points, all.

Quote:
Having said that, When I was a LE Firearms instructor I stressed learning to count. Don't let the pistol go dry.
In multi stages of qualification training, I taught, dump the mag and load a fresh one prior too or moving to the next stage.
Yeah I know, here it comes, you're gonna tell me in a stress situation people wont count. Guess what, people react under stress as they train. Habits are hard to break.
You're gonna practice and train with thousands more rounds then you are gonna shoot in a real situation. Develop good habits, you instill good habits for years, practice them for years, then when and if the SHTF, you're gonna go use the habits you developed over the years whether you realize it or not.
You're gonna shoot thousands of rounds, (hopefully), spend hundreds of hours (hopefully) training, LEARN TO COUNT. Its better to dump a mag with a round or two then get caught fumbling to get your slide forward on a fresh mag.
I am not an instructor; I am not an operator, I am not a low drag, high speed guy.

That said, I do believe that as you train, so shall ye fight. Makes perfect sense, although I could be wrong; it's happened before.

When I am at the range, I count every round, whether it's a six-round revolver, a ten round Ruger MkII or a 17 round Glock. Will I do the same under stress? I honestly don't know, but I do believe that the more I practice this habit, the stronger the chance that it will be ingrained.

Likewise, I use the slide release on every semiautomatic pistol I own. Consistent habit patterns will (hopefully) lead to consistent performance under stress, without stopping to wonder which platform is in use or which procedures are required to make it work.

I appreciate the thoughtful exchange of ideas here, and will endeavour to keep an open mind.
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