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Old January 20, 2010, 12:40 AM   #26
Pathfinder45
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Cheap, reliable shotgun.

Pump shotgun, $265.00, made in America, by Americans, and for Americans. The stocks are American Black Walnut; the metal is all steel. Except for the recoil-pad it's nothing but steel and Walnut. It's a Winchester, of course, model of 1912. This particular specimen is as reliable as the day it was built in spite of the fact it is 96 years old. Imagine how many times it may have changed hands and consider that every time it's been sold, those dollars are still in this country. Cheap imports are bleeding our hard earned dollars out of the country, weakening America, devastating American jobs, compromising American sovereignty and will ultimately destroy not only the Second Amendment but also the rest of the Constitution as the, "Land of the Free", is reduced to servitude to the nations that have lent those U.S. Dollars back to us. Imported goods are supposed to have sufficient tariffs on them so that they can't compete with American made products so that only the wealthiest people can afford imports. And that's how the government is supposed to EARN it's keep, supporting domestic production rather than taxing YOUR earnings. Free trade is not fair trade. Buy American while you still can. If you are not an American you are excused. All countries ought to protect their laboring classes the same way. "So, let's see; should I get the Winchester, or the Norinco? Duhhhhh......"

Last edited by Pathfinder45; January 20, 2010 at 01:17 PM. Reason: Corrected, "By", to, "Buy".
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Old January 20, 2010, 12:53 AM   #27
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Eloquently put, Pathfinder.
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Old January 20, 2010, 01:25 AM   #28
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The Norinco is a good shotgun and if I could find a Model twelve for 265.00, I'd buy it in a minute, but that's besides the point!

I don't know what you are putting in you pipe and smoking but Model 12's in ANY form command a hefty price in these parts.

Being since you are so well versed in economics, tell us all why the model 12 is not being made any more.

And why are all the gun makers going overseas to import what we should be making ourselves with our own people?

You folks seem to take delight in making yourselves look like the very folks who would deprive us from our right to own firearms.

Continuing to bring division in this forum serves no one and the guns questioned are made and imported by American companies.

To conclude, no one who likes and uses the imports have attacked you who seem to have America's best interest in mind with such uninformed remarks.

If you don't like the gun, don't buy it! And show some respect to folks who come here to ask, with good intentions, about guns that are in their financial reach.

The smug remarks smack of elitism and I, for one , resent that someone would try to tell me what I should buy or not buy regarding my choice in firearms.

This is America, Isn't it?!?!

Last edited by jlv08; January 20, 2010 at 01:42 AM. Reason: Bleep in out the bleeps!!!!!
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Old January 20, 2010, 02:25 AM   #29
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"The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory.” - Aldo Gucci "

You Sig line is real cute, oneounceload.

I, in my working career, have been involved in building, maintaining and now overseeing the quality of this nations propulsion systems on Naval vessels for better than 33 years.

I know metals, how to check tolerances, understand fatigue rates, M.T.F.R. and am capable of judging, objectively, the quality of items I buy from time to time.

I am also able to discern when a person makes a fool out of himself with uninformed remarks about a product they no absolutely nothing about.

You have done a real good job of that and should be commended for you lack of objectivity.

Any more cute sayings to impress us with?:barf:
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Old January 20, 2010, 03:23 AM   #30
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Winchester model 12

I got my model 1912 Winchester at the Portland gun show. I used to think I'd never find one for less than 400 bucks. But lately I've seen several between 300 and 400 dollars with a few under 300, all at the Portland Expo. I'm looking at my receipt now. The folks from GUNTRADERS in Redmond, OR had come and I saw this shotgun on their rack. They were asking $265.00 for it but I tested the waters and found that they weren't firm on the price. They actually sold it to me for $225 plus $10 NICS fee. That was on 12/19/2008, slightly over a year ago. I've seen at least two for under $300 at the last show before Christmas '09.
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Being since you are so well versed in economics, tell us all why the model 12 is not being made any more.
I don't know much, but I believe that the model 12 would cost so much more than the Remington 870 which is a darn good shotgun at a ridiculously low price.
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And why are all the gun makers going overseas to import what we should be making ourselves with our own people?
Alright, YOU asked, so I'll try to keep it brief: In this country we have wage laws, child labor laws, environmental protection laws, and labor unions. And our Constitution recognizes that we have rights as citizens. But free-trade agreements allow our industrialists open factories in countries that have no such protections and then import those goods without tariffs. Thus an otherwise identical product can be offered to the consumer at a fraction of the cost it would have been if manufactuered here while at the same time generating greater profits to the manufucturer as they continue with massive lay-offs and plant closures at home. That, "better price", that allows the consumer's daughter to have a shoe collection resembling Emelda Marco's does not come without consequences. This is unfair competition that is strengthening another country while damaging our own so that SOME of us can get rich. I was under the impression that the Constitution authorized the government to place tariffs on imports to protect America and Americans from this very thing.
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The smug remarks smack of elitism and I, for one , resent that someone would try to tell me what I should buy or not buy regarding my choice in firearms.
You can buy whatever you want, just don't kid yourself that there aren't any consequences. Some people post questions here because they WANT others to tell them why or why not to buy this or that. If you like an import, I say buy a used one as the damage is already done.
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This is America, Isn't it?!?!
Yes, but it's ideals have been badly eroded on some fronts. But back to shotguns......There are lots of really good used shotguns at great prices. Now if only I could find a nice 1886 Winchester RIFLE that I could afford.....
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Old January 20, 2010, 07:02 AM   #31
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Okay, we are getting a little hostile here.


My question was legitimate. In a few years I am certain mossberg and remington will both be made outside of the united states. It is inevitable!

So eventually we will all be forced to buy guns made in sweat shops.
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Old January 20, 2010, 10:44 AM   #32
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Superdave,
You are correct, it always gets stupid in this forum with guys who hijack threads that try to steal a persons joy or rank them because of their choice of firearm.

The NEF Pump gun is a very good shotgun and gives up nothing in quality and folks are catching on and buying them up.

I'm not advocating "buy Chinese or Turkish", I'm advocating buy "quality".

It is imported by an American company that has been building firearms for many years that was almost sued out of bussines by some idiot trial lawyers representing some guy who was trying to win a Darwinian award by altering a single shot to shoot high pressure rifle loads.

The enemy, in that situation, was an idiot who did not need to handle firearms and a trial lawyer who smelled blood and cashed in on someones stupidity. The enemy at this juncture was within.

The argument posed by these individuals is moot because just about eveything is made overseas and when they hijack a thread, that don't back up their comment with facts.

They spew derision and it serves no one and frankly, I will call them out any time they pull this childish ploy.

The only consequence in my decision to buy an imported firearm is having to deal with the flamethrowers on this forum who haven't got a clue about what they are talking about or the decency to respect others on this board with their uninformed remarks.

Last edited by jlv08; January 20, 2010 at 10:49 AM. Reason: additional remarks
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Old January 20, 2010, 01:09 PM   #33
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Brand new Remington 870

Here in Oregon you can get a brand new Remington 870 for under $270.00. Try BiMart, they frequently have sales on them. Only problem is that it's not made in China or Turkey, so I guess that disqualifies it. I believe my comments have been civil. I have never accused someone of smoking weird substances or that they haven't got a clue....
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what we should be making ourselves with our own people
You said it. Now if you really think that a foreign made shotgun is going to make you happier than an American gun then have at and be happy. It's your money. I doubt that any of us are without some level of guilt in this free-trade thing. I'm not condemning; I'm just saying........
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Old January 20, 2010, 05:11 PM   #34
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I believe the Chinese are way ahead of the Turkish shotguns on durability but the Turkish shotguns have a nicer finish than most Chinese shotguns.

The problem with some of the Turkish made semi autos & pump shotguns is the durability of the internal parts. There has been problems with locking blocks, firing pins and shell latches breaking. I don't know if it's the steel they are using or how they are heat treated.


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Last edited by MAX100; January 20, 2010 at 05:21 PM.
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Old January 20, 2010, 05:52 PM   #35
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i have both a original win 97 from the fifties, and a chinese copy from ahlmans. the chinese copy is not near as smooth on the INSIDES where it counts. screw threads etc are more of a blacksmith nature than a refined firearm. bobn
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Old January 20, 2010, 07:02 PM   #36
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Quote:
the chinese copy is not near as smooth on the INSIDES where it counts. screw threads etc are more of a blacksmith nature than a refined firearm. bobn
The 97 copies made in China where built under a set budget by the importer IAC and others. If they wanted a higher quality 97 copy they could have paid more to make it happen. That would have also increased the retail price.

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Old January 20, 2010, 07:17 PM   #37
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wow jlv08 - now THOSE were some very immature comments from someone who seems to have no knowledge about the subject at hand, but then your attacks are typical from someone who neither the knowledge nor the skill necessary....and your use of the sarcastic eye rolling is SO mature....not
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Old January 20, 2010, 07:30 PM   #38
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Generally the importer sets the standard. Not with respect to how the gun is made but rather how much he wants to spend. It depends on the market he hopes to capitalize on and make a buck.

Turkey has made some really nice guns for years. Although Kimber had some problem with their Turkish side lock over/unders they were well made and retailed here in the states for around $4,500.00. I doubt you could find the same quality of craftsmanship in a gun for twice the price from Germany, Italy, Austria, etc.
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Old January 20, 2010, 07:58 PM   #39
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Win71 - excellent points - it is not only in the gun realm....wally world does it all the time. Many folks look only at the initial price and not at the long term cost - that might work for a toothbrush, but not necessarily for a gun. Kimber had issues with theirs, as did DeHann, some were QA/QC, some were just contractual.

Super Dave - I find it ironic that you didn't want to go to an American store nearby because you want to support local mom and pop store, yet you'll buy something made overseas, not supporting any US workers.......
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Old January 20, 2010, 08:11 PM   #40
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Jlv08 ....if you think the NEF pump gun represents quality ...boy have you got to learn about shotguns - especially pump guns, in my opinion.

The NEF, in my opinion, has a fit and finish that isn't even suitable in the dark .....

My definition of "quality" - is a gun that should reliably be able to fire 5,000 shells a year / for at least 10 yrs / hopefully 20 yrs. If you think the NEF pump gun will do that / contact us in 10 yrs and let us know. I don't think the NEF will hold up to 15,000 shells without a major problem in 3 years or 10 years for that matter.

There is very little to come out of Turkey or China, in terms of shoguns, machine tools, woodworking tools, hand tools, etc. that is worthy of a high quality comment, in my opinion. The quality of the metallurgy alone coming out of china - is suspect at best and in my opinion, most of it is disposable at best after only a few uses ......castings, steel, etc ..

You're free to buy whatever you want / and so is super-dave ....if you want to discuss quality in a pump gun look at the Browning BPS ( imported from Japan ) or one of the Rem 870's in the upper end of their lineup like the Wingmaster / where $ 500 - $ 750 will get you a quality pump gun / that will run for 100,000 shells without a problem, in my opinion. They have set the standard for quality / come back in 10 yrs with your NEF and let us know how many you had to buy - to fire 10,000 shells let alone 100,000 shells.
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Old January 20, 2010, 08:38 PM   #41
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I would not cast a broad stereotype on Turkey (or China). Our company buys metal fabrications from all over and some of our best suppliers are in Turkey. However, overall, neither country has the level of quality of America. It is to bad we don't manufacture more, but this is our choice.

Regarding the question

And why are all the gun makers going overseas
to import what we should be making ourselves
with our own people?

My opinion is our politicians and business leaders do not invest in manufacturing. Compare us to many Western European countries and you can see how they invest in manufacturing. And yes, they do have labor laws, and environmental laws, same as we do.

My last gun purchase and the one I am trying to make now are based on quality, and both choices, CZ and Browning models of interest, are Western European sourced. Go figure.
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Old January 21, 2010, 12:13 AM   #42
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This forum used to be a place where people could come in and be objective and enjoy discussing firearms. It's turned into a sandlot with all of the "experts" trying to undermine and hijack posts to belittle others over what they buy.

Say what you want, you're singing in a Hurricane. I have and have had and repaired many different firearms for friends and only give my objective opinion, which by the way, for those who payed attention, was regarding a FIELD GRADE shotgun at a price point.

It's a shame this topic has had to be reduced to a sandlot quarrel by folks who clearly choose to be non objective and just plain old redneck with their comments.

Last edited by jlv08; January 21, 2010 at 12:14 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old January 21, 2010, 10:07 AM   #43
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JLV, it appears you are the one coming across as a self proclaimed expert. Posters gave their opinion and you say they don't know what they are talking about just because they don't agree with your opinion.
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Old January 21, 2010, 10:42 AM   #44
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Oletymer. with all due respect, read the posts. I did not make anything other than objective remarks and called folks on their stuff ,as always happens here when the imports are talked about, who claim they are junk ,just because of where they come from, with out even using or handling the guns.

What clearly has been done here is that when the OP asked about a truck gun ,it turned into a free flow urine stream contest and shouting match, of which, I am guilty, regarding sweat shops, inferior steels, 100,000 round, longevity and it began merely with an inquiry over a truck gun purchase.

It went from me stating that the Chinese offering being imported by NEF and other concerns, which by the way is part of the same consortium that owns Remington, are of good quality in a filed gradegun and then the flames started and the rants howled.

It's hard for a person to remain objective, after with my own experience and the experiences being shared by others who are buying some of the imports, when people hijack a thread ,and then accuse me of being, childish, a socalled expert, and whatever you may to try to kill a discussion of these decent guns.

You can say what you will, but it is shameful to think that you who have acted with such a nasty regard to folks here when they make an inquiry about these gun, that I'm the bad guy because I call you out due to the fact that it is so easy to dismiss a product because it comes from what ever country that YOU don't like.

I will, in the future not engage in a debate with any of you who that have clearly shown the inability to even show any decency towards a poster who asks about the guns being offered today by Amerian manufacturers

It's not worth the hassle. And I am no means and expert, if I was I wouldn't come in this forum to try to learn as much as I can about ALL make of firearms and try to share with others my objective opinion, which is just that , an opinion, without being rude, as those who have done so in this thread.

It appears that there is a group of you who pile in on folks who discuss imported gun and it's all too obvious.

Hey, it's your forum, do what you want with it. This is my last post on the Firing Line and there are other forums that do show some decency to folks and back up their remarks with experience rather than prejudice.

Keep up the good work, soon it will be just Oneounceload, oltymer, Bigjimp, Laz, Lawyerdaggit, Pathfinder45, sharing their great knowledge and political rants among themselves as people will get disgusted with you remarks and move on to other forums.
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Old January 21, 2010, 10:53 AM   #45
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Your wealth of great knowledge will be missed? Bye!
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Old January 21, 2010, 10:59 AM   #46
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I don't pile on nobody! I say what I feel! If I could by a computer of American parts for near the same price as this Chinese one, I would buy it!

And I feel left out that I wasn't included in the short list of folks who will be left when we run off all the chinese shotgun lovers

Toodles, big fella!
Brent
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Old January 21, 2010, 11:04 AM   #47
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All I can add to this is my review of a recent Turkish shotgun the Tristar Cobra.

Make of it what you will.
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Old January 21, 2010, 11:29 AM   #48
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THERE IT IS!!!! It didn't take a whole lot to smoke you out with your true intentions! You stated it and admitted it by your remark!! The Truth comes out. I hope the moderator takes notice because YOU admmitted that you want no comments regarding imported shotguns, What a bunch of swell guys you are! Thanks for revealling to all the extent of your bias and I hope you are proud of showing your true intent towards others who don't fall in lockstep with your views!! I love it when a fool steps on his crank!!!!
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Old January 21, 2010, 11:36 AM   #49
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not really there cowboy......

The OP asked for opinions on those particular guns - opinions were offered; obviously there did not agree with YOUR view, so YOU go on the attack against posters. Oh well, sorry if that gets your undies in a bunch.

As for them being decent guns, that is YOUR opinion, and one not shared by many folks who shoot lots of rounds.

You seem to be the one who has a problem with folks disparaging something you seem to think is well made and reliable.

Oh well, the OP got to see both sides of the coin - and if he has half a brain, he'll digest this stuff, go to other places and follow up to see what even more folks think. Then he can make a better-informed decision for himself
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Old January 21, 2010, 12:23 PM   #50
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JLV I see you are back. What kept you away for so long?
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