Old 45-70 ammo question

[snowman748]

I wasn't sure where to post this so if it's in the wrong place I'm sorry...

today at lunch I picked up some 45-70 government ammo from a local gun shop that only had two boxes on their shelves...it was labeled as P.C.I. but came in what looks like a J&J ammo box. the ammo was only $30 a box for 20 405 grain loads (compared to $50 a box of Remington at the local Academy) so I picked up both boxes. When I got to the car and untaped the boxes to see the ammo I noticed it was all Starline brass. The bullet itself looks like copper washed lead to me but I could be wrong. No telling how long it's been on the shelf because it was sandwiched between some 45-90 and I think 44-90?

anyways I looked up the brass and it's about $20 alone, and the J&J boxes run about $4 a piece...

my question is did I get a good deal on some old ammo or should I be worried and not shoot the stuff? If I shoot it, it will go through a brand new Marlin 1895 GBL lever gun...

to be 100% honest the boxes are what sold me...the ability to shoot the ammo and have nice boxes to store the spent cases in till I get around to reload seemed cool...

here are some pictures of what I got...

[NoSecondBest]

The cases look pristine, no corrosion or discoloration. What part of this are you worried about? I have ammo here at home I loaded over thirty years ago and when I shoot it today it shoots as good as it did back then. If it were stored in a car trunk or hot attic I'd be a little bit concerned but this stuff looks brand new. I think your only concern should be.....how does it shoot in your gun? I'm guessing it will be just fine.

[wogpotter]

It looks fine to me, what has you concerned exactly?

[T. O'Heir]

Hi. PCI is a commercial reloader catering to LEO. Appears they don't load .45-70 any more. Very much doubt it'll bother your Marlin though. Most commercial .45-70 is loaded to BP specs.

[Kosh75287]

If you are concerned that the load might be too stout, try pulling one, weighing the bullet and the powder, and trying to identify the latter by appearance and density. Compare that information to a loading manual.

This method isn't "sure-fire fool-proof", but it'll give you more information with which to make a decision about shooting it. Unless you have reason to believe that the manufacturer was trying to re-invent the .458 Winchester, I'D bet you're pretty safe.

[snowman748]

T. O'heir & Kosh pretty much hit the nail on the head. I haven't been able to find any PCI ammo online in 45-70. I was worried maybe it wasn't actually PCI but instead reloads. Maybe PCI loaded their ammo really hot and I should worry able (insert worry here), or PCI had problems early on with their powder charges fluxing which could result in a squib load.

It's old ammo and like ya'll mentioned it seems to be in great condition but with old ammo and me being new to 45-70 I figure it's better to ask and be reassured then not ask and hurt my gun because I wasn't watching for something.

EDIT: Honestly I think the hand cut slip of paper that says "Inspected by - 3" spooked me a bit.

I mean who is #3 , what is this conspiracy I've never been aware of?

[NoSecondBest]

Unless it's marked as being for a particular gun that accepts "high pressure" ammo (such as a Ruger #1), it's probably loaded down like all other commercial 45-70 ammo......can be used in all guns including Trapdoors. Your Marlin will actually take some rather stout 45-70 loads with no problem. I would have no reservations about shooting these in any of my 45-70 guns, and I have several. I always err on the side of caution, but considering your gun is modern, safe, and the ammo is a commercial grade ammo, I believe you're good to go. The real concern would be if you were shooting an true antique rifle made for blackpowder loads.

[Slamfire]

It is good that you recognize that ammunition has a shelf life. It is surprising to find that many shooters assume that ammunition will last forever. This is not true. Deteriorated or deteriorating gunpowder is the primary determinate for the lifetime of ammunition.

I doubt your ammunition is bad, ammunition typically goes bad around 20 years if it has not been stored in hot conditions. Ammunition manufacturers will only warrant the quality of their ammunition for a duration less than a decade. The exact numbers should be found in the referenced posts. If you are interested to learn more about ammunition lifetime, these will make a good start:


How long will smokeless powder keep?

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292281


August 1993 reloads. Anyone shooting older.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=566954


Powder with Red dust. Metal can vs Plastic

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=564029

[NoSecondBest]

It is good that you recognize that ammunition has a shelf life. It is surprising to find that many shooters assume that ammunition will last forever. This is not true. Deteriorated or deteriorating gunpowder is the primary determinate for the lifetime of ammunition.

I doubt your ammunition is bad, ammunition typically goes bad around 20 years if it has not been stored in hot conditions. Ammunition manufacturers will only warrant the quality of their ammunition for a duration less than a decade. The exact numbers should be found in the referenced posts. If you are interested to learn more about ammunition lifetime, these will make a good start:

Not one of your links goes to a reputable source....ie, a manufacturer. Hodgdon powder started out selling WW2 surplus powder and sold it into the mid 70s before it ran out. Making your statement would have some validity if you could link it to a manufacturer's statement rather than your own arbitrary 20 years. This is a number you just grabbed out of the air. Go back and do some reliable research and come back with a powder manufacturers statement (quote it and reveal source) and we'll have something to go on. I've been shooting for around sixty years and have reloaded hundreds of thousands of rounds and I've never heard of your twenty year number. I do know a lot of people who have stored powder in cool dry places and have used it for decades with no problems. Ammo also. Another internet myth here. A bunch of internet users sharing opinions without facts isn't a truth.

[Mike Irwin]

"Not one of your links goes to a reputable source....ie, a manufacturer."

Wrong.

Slamfire linked to threads in which his replies have a multitude of primary sources, including US military own research.

I, too, didn't really believe it until I started reading those military documents.

Dig a little deeper into the threads to which slamfire provided the links, and you'll find information that will change your view on the matter.

[Mike Irwin]

I THINK Starline has been in business for about 35 years.

However, they really only started making rifle cases within the last 15 to 20 years, IIRC.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I personally wouldn't be worried about anything in a Starline case ( because of the age of them making brass with that headstamp ) however if you are concerned about the powder, pull one & look for deterioration... ( it's not uncommon for smaller commercial manufacturers, to perhaps have used bulk surpluss powders available "back then"

[Bongo Boy]

The "old ammo" thread surfaces fairly regularly, with folks concerned about ammo that might be 10 years old. Such posts are routinely followed up by shooters who have fired ammo well in excess a decade or two old that they've had no problems with.

I personally wouldn't "inspect" the powder since I'd pretty much have no idea what I was looking for, and would expect it to look just like new powder anyway.

As for old ammo, as a youngster we had several 1000 rds of 7mm Mauser that I believe was headstamped 1937 or thereabouts, quite a bit of .30-'06 from the 40s, and about 10,000 rds of French or Belgian .45 Auto headstamped 1957.

I just finished up the last of the 1957 .45 Auto about 3 years ago, and don't recall having a single misfire, hangfire or any other problem with it.

The 7mm Mauser would exhibit an occasional hangfire, and a few occurrences of cases showing perforations after firing where, I believe, internal corrosion came close to perforated the case, and firing it finished the job. I think this is an extreme situation--we were firing ammo that was 3 decades old but how it was stored was unknown.

We also had 1000s of rounds of 9mm Largo that was also 'old', with nickel plated bullets and very good looking stuff. No idea where it was made, but I'd estimate it was '30s or '40s, so it would have been 2 or 3 decades old when we fired it. I don't recall any problems with it at all--although for me as a kid I thought that stuff kicked like a mule in those goofy Astras we had.

If ammo has been stored indoors, in most environments I'm familiar with, I wouldn't consider 20 years to be 'old', and 30-40 years wouldn't concern me either.

[TimSr]

I think the main concern from the OP was whther or not he bought a box of unknow reloads in a factory box. With a website (obviously not ancient ammo) and phone number listed on the box, I would simply contact them with any questions or concerns. I think the other question the OP seemed to be asking was that if this ammo was not shootable, did he still get a good deal on compontents.

I've had similar experenceas Bongo Boy with old, old surplus ammo. My quess also is that ammo made in the 90's has a longer total shelf life than ammo made in the 30's and 40's too.

[snowman748]

Tim was correct in my concerns, I did shoot 24 of the 40 rounds I bought and all of them were very soft shooting and a real pleasure. I ended up finding a "Batch #" that was also "Inspected by #3" I figured it was probably just very early factory ammo, especially because the was very low (I don't remember exaclty but for sure under 400). The gamble paid off and now I have some awesome starline I can reload after having quite a bit of fun.

as far as "Old" ammo goes I've personally shot some surplus 8mm Mauser ammo I picked up off a guy that was I believe was Turkish and said to be 100 years old almost, it used un-jacketed spitzer bullets and shot just fine aside from about every 10th round misfiring...I'm pretty sure it wasn't "100 years old) but it was indeed old...it came in 5 round clips (Yes I used it correctly) and came in cloth bandoliers...pretty cool stuff...

My personal opinion is that I think like everything ammo does has a expiration date...it degrades over time and becomes unusable but like most things if the right conditions exist it can last well past that expiration date and I feel like that might fluctuate depending on what brand, type, shape, mixture, etc of the powder...just my two cents