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Old May 20, 2011, 01:35 AM   #51
mellow_c
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orionengnr says it all

That is the end point.

Our bodies will take anything that our minds are willing to receive.

If nothing essential to the immediate function of our body is disabled,
If we have the will. we will continue to fight until our body is DONE and unable to continue.

Unless we are struck with a force that to the "individual" is so extreme that they "feel" they can no longer put up a fight.

Will of survival.

Animals dont know what hit them, they just know things are wrong, so they go nuts and attack or retreat until their body says "NO, you are DONE"

Humans say "OMG< I'm shot!!!!!!! I cant go on" an then we collapse" either that or we say.... (excuse me) "F this.... I'm pumped and nothing will stop me but death"

That is why I now understand that more damage means more stopping power. In the generally speaking bell curve like orionengnr originally said
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Old May 20, 2011, 07:31 AM   #52
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...

"TAMPING IRON: a crowbar-like tool used to compact an explosive charge into the bottom of a bore hole. 3 feet 7 inches in length; 1-1/4 inches in diameter at one end tapering over a distance of about 1 foot to a diameter of 1/4 inch at the other end; and weighing 13-1/2 pounds."

Short of military artillery (like that Navy magnetic rail gun), I don't think there is a gun that fires projectiles like these, so you have to dig a hole, plant explosive charges in it, then get the bad guy to bend over the hole and then detonate.

I think you'd have to do it by saying something like "Whoa - look at this, someone dropped their bling-bling in this here hole" And then when the bad guy looks in the hole.... BLAM !

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Old May 20, 2011, 07:41 AM   #53
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That HP would not have done more damage. In actual flesh and bone tests the HPs failed to penetrate the rib cages FMJ did every time.
markj, I think you are just making up stuff now.

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CNS will drop a person, anywhere else is a crap shoot. No matter tha caliber, no matter the round HP or fmj.
This is wrong as well.
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Old May 20, 2011, 07:56 AM   #54
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I don't know what CNS means...
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Old May 20, 2011, 08:04 AM   #55
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Old May 20, 2011, 08:12 AM   #56
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One of the not-so-much talked about aspects of this story is where and how many times Joel Abner was shot. Not counting the three to the head area... he seemed to take a lot of rounds and not go down.
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Old May 20, 2011, 08:34 AM   #57
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At least two shots were said to have hit Abner about an inch apart, in the middle of his back.

I haven't seen any reference to Abner's size, but based on the quarter mile sprint that he barely lost to a physical fitness buff, I would guess Abner was in good shape.
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Old May 20, 2011, 09:14 AM   #58
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If you take a blow to the jaw of sufficient strength the kinetic shock will transfer to your brain rendering you unconscious. Maybe if the perp had been using HPs the police officer would have lost consciousness...
The thing is that it usually takes more than the 300 or 400 pounds that a bullet creates. Chuck Lidell punches guys in the face with between 1,200 and 1,400 pounds of force and they stay up.

A lucky hit in the right spot can take a man down with very little energy. It is like a lucky shot shot from a gun, don't count on it.
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Old May 20, 2011, 09:17 AM   #59
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I've never understood why people get so upset with the published results of Marshall & Sanow. It is true that what they talk about is limited but nowhere have I read that they guaranteed anything. If what they publish is false, then all handgun rounds are pretty much the same. There is such a thing as a one shot stop, only it isn't guaranteed.

With regards however to the comment about whether or not how close the muzzle is to the person (or animal) about to be shot, I think you may be onto something. It doesn't have anything to do with velocity but rather with the muzzle blast of the weapon. In other words, if you placed the muzzle of the firearm against the body of what you are shooting, it would probably do more damage. It's an idea anyway and probably doesn't have much practical application.
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Old May 20, 2011, 09:54 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by BlueTrain
I've never understood why people get so upset with the published results of Marshall & Sanow. It is true that what they talk about is limited but nowhere have I read that they guaranteed anything. If what they publish is false, then all handgun rounds are pretty much the same. There is such a thing as a one shot stop, only it isn't guaranteed.
Actually, I would say that's true, that "all" handgun rounds are the same.

By all, I mean not literally "all", but any of the major calibers from, roughly, high end 38spl, 9mm energies to 10mm, 357mag energies.

Given proper bullet selection and proper shot placement, I believe the long term averages would be nearly identical as to the effect and time to effect.

Handguns are very weak things, really. Even the most powerful cartridges typically carried will have muzzle energies equivalent to what a fairly low end rifle bullet has at hundreds of yards distance.

This is why I consider a handgun to be a last ditch weapon, carried because it is the only reasonable choice. When I have a choice, at home for example, I would reach for the 12ga, not ANY handgun.
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Old May 20, 2011, 11:01 AM   #61
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BlueTrain, I wouldn't say I'm "upset" about M&S. I would say it alarms me when people make statements such as "I'm carrying a 96% stopper!" You know you've seen plenty of such claims on this and other forums.

There are people who really think they have a 96% chance of a one shot stop with a .357 125gr, or a 94% chance with a 230gr .45 HST; some of those same people would rather carry one of those guns, than a gun with a load they can actually control and get rapid follow-up shots with.

Seems to me the people who make those claims the loudest, are often not the best shooters. New guys, who would probably be better off with something else.

I see guys like that at the range on a regular basis. They make lots of noise, shoot big ol' guns, and don't hit much.

Not to say there aren't people who can shoot the big bores well. I see plenty of them; for that matter, I am one of them.

But people buy off on M&S stats, and think the caliber is the big difference in shooting results, when realistically the difference is in the shooter. Can caliber and load make a difference? Yes, sure. Do I think a shooter is better off with a 9mm he can 10-ring than a .45 that he is lucky to hit the 8-ring with? Yes.
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Old May 20, 2011, 11:28 AM   #62
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I know there are people who are upset with Marshall & Sanow - it's usually the people who got involved with that acrimonious debate with them.

When I first was trying to decide on what round to go with in my 9, I saw one of their first articles - it may even have been their very first article. And I really wanted to believe what they were saying. I actually purchased my ammo based on the round that they said had the best one shot stop percentages.

I remember though - I was going through college at the time and I was taking a statistics class, and one of their rounds that they assigned a one shot stop percentage to had only 12 cases behind it. And I remember what my stats class prof said - that a data set of less than 30 is not statistically reliable. I remember thinking back then that 12 shooting were too few statistically to predict anything.

That's like when baseball season opens and you look at your favorite slugger and you go "Whoa ! He's batting 890 !!!" Of course he's only had 12 at bats and at the end of the season his average will probably be around 300.

I do think there is meaningful information somewhere in all of these different shootings with different calibers and bullet designs, I'm just not sure how to get meaning from the data, and I don't think M&S got meaningful data out of it either.

What they have published has made its way into the vernacular of the shooting community. In any gun store or forum, you'll hear people speak with an air of authority about this round or that round having "stopping power" or 95% success rate - or "street results". They're just taking the percentages that M&S tacked on next to an ammunition brand.

I want Marshal & Sanow to be correct - or anyone for that matter, to be able to give me those numbers... I personally would have a good feeling knowing that the round in my pistol had a 96% chance of stopping the bad guy with one pull of the trigger.

And when I was looking at their data and what little they put out about their data gathering methods, I even tried to think of ways to solve some of the problems... I thought of indexing the body and categorizing hits into different categories - like heart, kidneys, liver, lungs, intestines... because probably if someone gets shot in the heart they are going to stop - be it .22LR, .380 auto, .357 mag, or a 10mm. So I thought, "What does it prove about a round if they bad guy gets shot right in the heart? Well - that it was able to penetrate to the heart, but maybe not much more than that.

The more I tried to think of things like that - the more complicated it got. There are so many variables - not least of which is, the psychological factor. What happens when a guy is facing 4 police officers, takes a 38 special to the gut but also has his windshield blown out by a 12ga miss and hears a dozen rounds hitting all around him and decides to call it quits... according to M&S that is a one shot stop for the .38 lead bullet. In reality the guy made a decision to give up.

I'm not upset with Marshall & Sanow, but I think at some point they should have just said "People with knowledge of scientific method and statistics have brought to light some problems with our data and we're trying to address that." And maybe they go back to the drawing board with trying to gauge bullet effectiveness. But they didn't do that. They circled the wagons and declared war on their detractors.

And I think that, even though the figures that they attached to one-shot-stops still circulate in the vernacular of the shooting community, they are losing the battle of credibility with law enforcement agencies, because they've pitted themselves against people like DOCTOR Fackler and others... I say Doctor with emphasis. They went up against very smart people with credentials and the background to persuasively highlight the problems with M&S work.

Marshall and Sanow have their believers but major law enforcement agencies, more and more are taking into account work by PhDs when making decisions on handgun caliber and brand.

I know that ammo selection for a PD is very "political" and controversial. They can't issue a round called "Bloody Talon" no matter how effective it might be predicted to be, or how much it would benefit both officers and the public. The exact same round called "Officer's Standard” can be purchased without problems.

But cities and LE agencies also have to balance their political correctness against officer welfare. There are such things as unions and police fraternities that bring pressure to bear on governments to give officers effective tools and equipment to do their jobs. If a municipality has under-equipped officers due to PC and they have an officer die because of it - they have another PM nightmare on their hands of a different kind.

So my point is, departments are looking for good information on what to equip officers with, there is a political component to it, and more and more they are using the work of degreed and titled ballistics experts - people like Dr Fackler, and they are less and less taking into account the work of Marshall and Sanow.

A whole different discussion is that many of the rounds that M&S declare as great stoppers are rounds that Facklers studies say would be good rounds as well...

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Old May 20, 2011, 12:22 PM   #63
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Well, you're correct. No one else has come out with any other data that gives results that are especially different. Naturally, some people might look at the results and say simply, "I could have told you that." At the same time others will look at it and say something like, "Naw, .45 hardball beats them all." Maybe M&S would get more sympathy if they were selling something besides books. Has anyone else bothered to collect data and publish the results?

The thing is, nobody is forcing anyone to pick one thing over the other. The guy that sells you a .45 is equally happy to sell you a .380. Someone who knows nothing about guns might even thing that the 9mm has a personal grudge against the .45 auto, judging from what you read.

Another thing about these cartridge controversies is that in the discussion, just about every other problem is assumed away. It's like in hunting. Maybe you have a .300 magnum but still come home at night with no deer because you never saw one. For a handgun cartridge to work, the bullet has to hit the target. And if the other side is permitted to shoot at the same time, just doing that much becomes highly problematic.

But use enough gun, as someone says.
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Old May 20, 2011, 02:34 PM   #64
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That's the first time I've EVER heard anything like that...

Who did these tests and with what bullets and cartridges?
We do them on my farm. I have used full grown cattle corpses and hogs. Tie em up in the barn and shoot, autopsy shows my results. I tested HP and FMJ winchester and cor bon in 45 and 9mm. I use FMJ only.

If you wish to come over and try it for yourself give me a week and Iwill get a body for you to shoot. But you will do the autopsy

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markj, I think you are just making up stuff now.


Quote:
CNS will drop a person, anywhere else is a crap shoot. No matter tha caliber, no matter the round HP or fmj.

This is wrong as well.
No I dont make stuff up. I do my own testing on all my arms, dont you?

You carry a gun and dont know what it will do when shot at a body?

Explain to me how I am wrong on the CNS shot? Do you understand the CNS at all? Look it up and understand what is part of central nervous system and what is not.

Teddy has it right, brain, spine or heart.

Used a 44 mag HP on deer cause FMJ isnt allowed, didnt bring him down, didnt penetrate the rib cage, neck shot took him down. I dont use handguns for large animals anymore.

Stalked that deer wasnt in a stand....
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Old May 20, 2011, 04:22 PM   #65
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"TAMPING IRON: a crowbar-like tool used to compact an explosive charge into the bottom of a bore hole. 3 feet 7 inches in length; 1-1/4 inches in diameter at one end tapering over a distance of about 1 foot to a diameter of 1/4 inch at the other end; and weighing 13-1/2 pounds."
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Old May 20, 2011, 04:24 PM   #66
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The statement 9mm are for those who don't practice enough is bull

I've been trying to find my dream pistol, I've shot everything from the 44 mag to a little pen gun then I came across a pmr-30 it's a 22mag semi auto with a 30 round mag, I would love to have someone pop off at me when I'm carrying it, I could just imaging all the holes and internal damage that thing could make, they really should replace the 9mm regular army has and give them some of these, if you miss you have 29 more corrections before having to reload and the ammo is obviously much lighter.
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Old May 20, 2011, 04:28 PM   #67
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I know there are people who are upset with Marshall & Sanow - it's usually the people who got involved with that acrimonious debate with them.
the way they gathered their data, and came up with the statistics has been discredited by every credible authority in the field of wound ballistics.


i used to buy into marshal&sanow years ago too. they were simply the only info available at the time in gun magazines etc. on wound ballistics, before the internet and information age.

however, after reading Dr. gary robert's and martin fackler's reports (both members of the IWBA-international wound ballistics association), and paid consultants with international/national LE/military agencies such as the FBI, and their work in the Us army's wound ballistics lab has convinced me they are the folks to listen to
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Old May 20, 2011, 08:27 PM   #68
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I've been trying to find my dream pistol, I've shot everything from the 44 mag to a little pen gun then I came across a pmr-30 it's a 22mag semi auto with a 30 round mag, I would love to have someone pop off at me when I'm carrying it, I could just imaging all the holes and internal damage that thing could make, they really should replace the 9mm regular army has and give them some of these, if you miss you have 29 more corrections before having to reload and the ammo is obviously much lighter.
Your certainly entitled to feel as you do.... physics however may disagree with you... You dont see any law enforcement or military units that I am aware of with your recommendation....
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Old May 20, 2011, 08:47 PM   #69
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Where can I get a gun that fires CROWBARS?
Whole point cloud.

Shot placement coupled with good bullet selection gives one the best chance of a one shot stop. But no round can guarantee it short of 20mm HE rounds.

This is why I always suggest for those who carry revolvers to pack two of 'em.

And why spray-n-pray is not guarantee either.

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Old May 20, 2011, 11:03 PM   #70
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As per the original post... Does anyone remember the soldier that had a live ordnance taken out of the back of his head? This war, a few years ago. I think he took an rpg that didn't detonate and lived. Simply amazing.
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Old May 21, 2011, 12:28 AM   #71
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isn't an RPG round about the size of someone's head?
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Old May 21, 2011, 12:42 AM   #72
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This story has intrigued me for the last two days and I cannot get it out of my mind. The posts and comments have all been most interesting but I got to wondering when I consider the number of rounds expended during the encounter of this officer and the shoplifter.

I carry a single stack 1911 pistol (.45 ACP). It is always in condition one with an eight round magazine and one in the pipe. For years I always thought that would be more than adequate to stop any hostile threat. Additionally, I carry two spare 8 round magazines and train for both emergency and tactical reloads. My BUG is also a .45 ACP 1911 which will accept the 8 round magazines. All loads are ball FMJ.

Now I wonder if faced with an attack by an individual such as this, would I have the time to reload or get to my BUG? Do I need to switch to a higher capacity gun? Of course I would never expect to be in a foot chase to run down a perp but we all learn never to say never. Have any of you given this additional capacity any consideration?
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Old May 21, 2011, 12:46 AM   #73
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WOW! Kudos to the LEO for fighting back & not giving up!

ps There was a guy in my area. He was shot 7 times from .45 acp and survived as well. Also another local guy was shot point blank to the head with a .357 mag and lived.

pss
another local guy tries to commit suicide with a 12 ga shotgun, 00 buck to the chest and lived. So there you go.....
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Old May 21, 2011, 01:50 AM   #74
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Bgutzman or whatever your name is

If I'm so intitled to my opinion then why mention your physics and expert third party opinion I can imagine you've never served so don't tell me the soldiers opinion because I am one, as for law enforcement sure that's a great round because they don't have to carry that stuff as much and they don't need to hold out as long. I mentioned regular army to be specific because they don't train on pistols and if you gave them one with a whole mess of rounds thier chances of success go up and it's lighter to carry around. I've personally been in two firefights where when my m4 jammed I would have loved to be about to continue to have placed suppressive fire aka multiple quickly placed rounds without blowing though all my side arm ammo aka having more of it and you can carry a whole mess of 22 ammo
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Old May 21, 2011, 01:59 AM   #75
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In addition BGutzman

A 22 magnum would be more then enough for the war we are fighting now because rarely do we encounter enemy body armor on the battle field and have you see what a 22 does when it gets inside?

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