Serious Ricochet Injury Opinions?

[LinuxHack3r]

The other day myself and a buddy were at the range having a rather quite enjoyable time. However, we were sharing a bench and I was letting him fire for a while. All I know for sure is that I felt something similar to someone driving a nail into my arm. I looked down and there was blood. I immediately decided to go to the "bathroom" (building with hole in the ground beneath a toilet) and clean my arm up. Within the 30 seconds it took me to walk to the bathroom, 75% of my arm was covered in blood. After I wiped it down, I help pressure for about 20 minutes until it stopped bleeding. I "convinced" myself it was simply an ejected shell casing miraculously broke the surface of my skin. Well, over the last few days, I've been experiencing tingling, numbness, and pain. This morning I convinced myself to go to the doctor and get an Xray. There is definitely something in my arm. In an effort to save on hospital costs, etc, we agreed to let the doctor make an incision and probe around for the object. About 1.5 hours later, nothing could be found. This is where I would like everyone's input.

My buddy at the time was shooting an 7.62x54R M44 carbine with surplus silver tipped ammo. We were on the far right of the range, and to the left of us was a lone man shooting an AR-15. I remember specifically he was shooting Wolf .223.

I was standing behind both of these people, and both of the people shooting were shooting at steel targets at 50 yards. The targets were something installed at the range.

I am simply in awe/shock/amazement that it would be possible for a bullet to hit a steel target and bounce directly back, carrying enough velocity to make a puncture wound 2-3 inches deep.

The doctors "suggested" that from the X-ray the object wasn't metallic because it appeared less dense than bone. To me the object appeared roughly the same size as a malformed .223 bullet.

However, assuming the doctors are correct, my second guess is that someone hit a rock, it exploded, and part of the rock caught my arm at just the wrong time.

Everyone at the range was taking what I considered the utmost safety. The way I see it when you are slinging metal downrange at several thousand feet per second, accidents happen.

Myself and the doctors have agreed to let the wound heel and see if long term problems arise. If no problems arise, then I will probably just leave the object in my arm. I will probably take a metal detector and play around with it around my arm in effort to determine if the object is metal.

The main reason I joined this forum today, even though I'm a regular reader, is as follows:
I wanted everyone's input, personal stories, just general ideas of what may have happened. I'll be happy to give any more information if needed. And secondly, I wanted to pass on this story of "oh crap stuff happens!". Shooting is dangerous and even though I normally don't use eye protection, I will not go shooting for enjoyment ever again without necessary eye protection.

[Jim Watson]

I think you have a piece of bullet in your arm.
I have had and seen fragments of pistol bullet break the skin but not penetrate out of sight at the lower velocity levels.

[Rigel42]

Post the X-Rays

[LinuxHack3r]

I tried scanning the X-Rays...I couldn't get anything but the bones to show on the scans. I don't have the X-Rays in my possession, but I am considering trying to get some sort of copy/scan from the doctor.

[LinuxHack3r]

I was under the original assumption that the Wolf bullets were made of steel, but after a little digging around on the internet it seems to me that the bullets are of lead. Any second thoughts?

[Brian Pfleuger]

I am simply in awe/shock/amazement that it would be possible for a bullet to hit a steel target and bounce directly back, carrying enough velocity to make a puncture wound 2-3 inches deep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn0MFqP1js0

[LinuxHack3r]

@peetzakilla

I have seen that video before, but to actually penetrate several inches into the skin scares the living hell out of me!

[Brian Pfleuger]

The bullet in that video, while much more powerful than the ones you mention, traveled HUNDREDS of yards and would have done a lot more than "penetrate several inches".


Anyway, I would personally not shoot at steel with a rifle at any distance, unless the bullets themselves were designed for it. You've just found out why.

[LinuxHack3r]

The extra distance the .50 BMG traveled in the video is something that I didn't account for.

[kodiakbeer]

I've been hit twice from ricochets, with no harm done. Once, due to my own youth and stupidity I lined up some clay pigeons on a piece of I Beam and proceed to break them with a .45 acp. An FMJ bounced back and hit me in the chest. Not even a bruise, but it sure taught me to be aware of my backstop and to use safety glasses.

Just a few weeks ago I was with my son and his girlfriend shooting .22's at a steel spinner thingy. One of their shots (apparently) hit the bar the spinners are mounted on and bounced back into my chest from about 20 yards. I actually caught the slug after it hit me and began to fall. It was hot, but did me no harm. I didn't even mention it because I didn't want to freak out his new-shooter G/F.

Perhaps somebody less physics-challenged than I has a better grasp of the question, but it seems to me that a direct 180 degree ricochet would not have the force to hurt you very badly unless it hit you in the eye or was a very heavy projectile. In other words, I don't think there would be a direct correlation between the velocity going out and coming back. A 1000 fps .22 would return at the same velocity as a 3000 fps 30.06... I think...?

As for the OP, since a metal object would stand out clearly on an X-Ray, I wonder if he didn't catch a piece of wood or something like that. Perhaps one of the shooters nicked the table or wooden frame of the shooting stand and sent a splinter his way?

[brickeyee]

Perhaps somebody less physics-challenged than I has a better grasp of the question, but it seems to me that a direct 180 degree ricochet would not have the force to hurt you very badly unless it hit you in the eye or was a very heavy projectile. In other words, I don't think there would be a direct correlation between the velocity going out and coming back.

A lot depends on the target hit and how much of the bullet comes back.

Portions could come back faster then the bullet left, but it would take very specific circumstances.

Bullets do not behave as solid objects when they hit something hard at high speed.
The lead behaves more like a semi-liquid (plastic state technically).

While you may think of the steel target as a rigid object, it can flex under the point loading from a bullet strike. The relaxation of that flex can cause things to return directly back.

The nice ringing of a steel target is casued by setting up vibrations in the metal.
It is ringing like a bell.
The ringing has energy.

[LinuxHack3r]

That is exactly the way I was thinking of it. I have looked for scientific "studies" or whatnot, trying to figure out exactly how fast a bullet could bounce back. I cannot find any. If it were to have simply hit my chest or arm and left a bruise, I could have understood that. But to puncture several inches into the skin, I do not understand how a direct ricochet could have the velocity. I suppose the fact that it was probably a steel plate that was the hard surface it bounced off of probably helped the velocity, but still I am in awe. As far as the likelihood of someone shooting a bench, etc etc, I do not recall any such thing happening, to the best of my knowledge everyone was being very careful and responsible, and no such accidents happened. I also would think wood would have probably been more of a fragmentation effect, leaving more "little" marks all around. I do not know.

[LinuxHack3r]

@brickeyee

I have not considered this. That all actually makes much more sense than anything else. Assuming this, steel-core ammo would not behave like that, or would it? My biggest concern is whether I should have more of these idiots we call doctors dig around my arm with sharp objects. If it is steel I would probably leave it, but I am not sure about the issues related with longterm lead lodged in an arm.

[kodiakbeer]

Lead or the brass alloy used in bullets would stand out clearly in an XRay. So, I don't know what went in your arm, but I don't think it was a bullet or bullet fragment.

Another thought is a piece of dirt or other foreign object getting caught in the flash suppressor of a firearm being thrown sideways upon a shot. It would be easy enough to get something stuck in there while laying the gun on the bench.

[LinuxHack3r]

@kodiakbeer

That is something that also sounds very possible. To me it appeared that the object appeared very well in the Xray, but assuming the doctor was well experienced and being honest, if he says it doesn't look like a metal, then I believe it. I will probably have more Xrays done and have another doctor/specialist give a second opinion.

[Steam Boat]

My older brother once shot a steel gong at about 35 yards with a 12 guage slug, it bounced back and split his forehead open and dang near knocked him out.
He never went to the hospital for stitches or to see if it cracked his skull.

[Dre_sa]

I have personally experienced bits of stuff flying back at me while on the range, twice.

the first time was at a small indoor range inside of a gun store. the backdrop consisted of some angled plates of steel that spanned the width of the room. considering the angle, any round fired would be deflected downward, expending its energy and not penetrating the wall behind. my friend and I had rented a CZ52 on the day of the "incident" and were happily shooting away. While my friend was emptying the magazine, I felt a sharp piece of something graze the inside of my forearm. luckily it got caaught in my shirt sleeve, and we were able to decipher that it was a piece of the jacket form one of his rounds. Likely what had happened was that the bullet struck the very edge of one of the plates of steel acting as a backdrop, probably where another round had struck it before. the bullet then disintegrated and in so doing sent a shard of copper back at me.

The second time, we (myself and the same friend) were shooting his FN FAL at a makeshift range. He had brought along his anvil (a good 200lbs of steel) with the intention of shooting it to see what the FAL would do to it. we also had along some old computers that we could not get rid of. well into the range session, we decided it would be time to break out the anvil. We set it up on top of one of the computer towers that had already been shot a few times. we retreated to about 50 yards at such an angle that any ricochet would be directed into a berm not far beyond. My friend took a knee and I crouched directly behind him, keeping my friend between me and the anvil. as he fired, I felt a sharp scratching sensation on the inside of the very same forearm. It startled me so I was jumping around and cursing. my friend turns back to me saying that the angle worked (implying the ricochet hit the intended berm) and when he saw me over reacting, he asked what I was on about. so I told him that something just hit me in the arm, directly following his shot. The wound looked more like a cat scratch, and was barely bleeding at all. upon further inspection of the anvil, we came to the conclusion that it was most likely a piece of steel from the anvil that had come back to claw at my arm. either that or another piece of copper jacket.

I never did like that anvil...

My guess would be a piece of jacket material. It could have come off a piece of steel with just the right contour to send a shard back at you, or maybe off a really hard rock.

short of that, it could be a chunk of rock that catastrophically failed to maintain it's structural integrity when hit with a high velocity rifle round. one large enough piece of it made it all the way back to you and buried itself in your arm.

[Ftom14cat]

maybe mr wolf ammo didnt like you and just shot you in the arm? that silly little 223 probably wouldnt penetrate more than a couple inches on a grown man anyway.

[rjrivero]

Steel plates at 50 yards? That could easily be bullet splatter coming back. My bet is that it's a bullet fragment. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen this happen either.

[orionengnr]

I have no experience with ricochets of rifle ammo.

However, at my local indoor pistol range (25 yards), I regularly find "returned" projectiles. Some are flattened, some are hardly deformed...all made it back to the firing line and more. At what speed and with what force...who knows.

Since I started shooting steel challenge (only four matches so far) I have been hit with three or four ricochets. Several were just "splatter" of lead bullets...you feels a sting but that is it. (If it hits your face, you definitely thank God that the rules require safety glasses). One or two were more substantial, and I have found a few (sometimes deformed) complete bullets that have returned to the firing line.

These days, I am quite a bit more circumspect about where I stand while watching other shooters. I check the lay of the plates, and stand somewhere that will minimise my chance of receiving a direct ricochet.

This is with low-velocity pistol ammo. With the attendant velocity of rifle ammo, I can easily imagine more serious consequences from a ricochet...

[riverwalker76]

Probably a copper jacket fragment.

I'm personally walking around with 4 pieces of copper in various parts of my body from ricochets. Granted 2 of them are from bullets that hit the ground in FRONT of me, but that's beside the point.

When a bullet breaks apart the copper jacket is like a razor blade. You should heal up fine, but it may work to the surface later in life. I had 2 pieces of bullet removed from both my right / back bicep, and my left / top forearm from injuries sustained 3 years ago. Both seemed to have healed up fine at the time, but I still got 'phantom' pains from the one in my left arm, so I had it taken out. The piece in my right bicep got partially torn out by a washrag while in the shower one morning. Hurt like heck, and it had worked it's way out of my body from an inch deep in muscle tissue.

It all depends. If your body doesn't like it ... it will work itself out, or you will have to go through (painless) outpatient surgery with a local anesthetic to get it out.

Just make sure there isn't any lead in there! You can have side effects from lead poisoning if that's the case ... however unlikely. Most of the time a bullet ricochets it loses it's lead core on the initial impact.

[Lavid2002]

Shouldnt accidents like this be covered by the ranges insurance?

[LinuxHack3r]

From the looks of the Xray the object doesn't appear to have any sharp edges such as a jacket. I'm not sure about any of the "range issuances". As far as the lead goes, I'm not sure how I'd determine what it is made of until it is removed. As long as it isn't going to harm me long term I would leave it in there and let it work its way out of my body if it wants to.

[MikeG]

The silver tip rounds (Type LPS) have a steel core roughly the same size and shape as a 62 grain .223 bullet with a truncated conical tip. Check out the cut away picture here:
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmoID.htm
The Type LPS bullets have a copper washed steel jacket, lead liner so they are soft enough to take the rifling, and the core. There's a possibility that when the 7.62x54R bullet hit the steel, the jacket and liner splashed, and the core bounced back at you.

[MO. Shootin]

Yep I worry to much. I would have it removed and not have to worry about it.