Shootout in Utah Mall

[Doug.38PR]

This apparently happened earlier this evening a few hours before my having posted this.
Let the discussion begin.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070213/.../utah_shooting

Gunman kills 5 in Utah shopping mall By JENNIFER DOBNER, Associated Press Writer
37 minutes ago



A man with a shotgun entered a shopping mall and began randomly shooting customers Monday night, killing five people and injuring at least four others before being killed, police said.

More than three hours later, police still were searching stores for shocked shoppers and employees who were hunkered down awaiting a safe escort from the Trolley Square mall.

"We have six fatalities and multiple victims at hospitals," police Detective Robin Snyder said. "They were found throughout the mall. I don't know male or female or ages."

At least four people were hospitalized, three in critical condition and one in serious condition, hospital spokesmen said. Two of the critically injured were a 16-year-old man and a 50-year-old man, a spokesman said.

Authorities offered few details about the shootings but said the gunman entered the enclosed mall about 6:45 p.m. MST. The two-story building, southeast of downtown, is a refurbished trolley barn, with a series of winding hallways and about 80 stores.

Antique store owner Barrett Dodds, 29, said he saw a man in a trenchcoat exchanging gunfire with a police officer outside a card store. The gunman, he said, was backed into a children's clothing store.

"I saw the cops go in the store. I saw the shooter go down," said Dodds, who watched from the second floor.

Barb McKeown, 60, of Washington, D.C., was in another antique shop when two frantic women ran in and reported gunshots.

"Then we heard shot after shot after shot — loud, loud, loud," said McKeown, saying she heard about 20. She and three other people hid under a staircase until it was safe to leave.

Many employees and shoppers — "a lot of scared people" — were still inside the mall hours after the shootings, waiting to leave, Snyder said.

"This is a huge area to cover," she said.

Streets were blocked outside the mall as police swarmed the two-block scene. Dozens of people lingered on the sidewalk, many wrapped in blankets as they talked about what they had seen inside.

An off-duty officer from Ogden was in the mall and involved in the shooting, said Ogden police Sgt. Blaine Clifford, who declined to release the officer's name.

The officer was not injured, but "I don't know anything more," Clifford said.

[BillCA]

First reports are always sketchy at best.

Let's see what other information is release in the next day or two. I'll be especially interested in finding out whether the shooter was taking Prozac or similar drugs prior to the shooting.

Other things to watch for:
- Utah is shall-issue, were any armed civilians shooting back?
- Is the mall posted as a no-carry zone?
- Description of the shotgun used

[G-Cym]

It makes me so mad that there are so few CCWers like us with the real training and range time out there amongst the regular people. I doubt anyone on this board wants stuff like this to happen, or wants to be a hero. But I can't help but wonder if a TFL or THR regular had been at that mall, how things might have been different.

This is a ####ty world we live in, and this kind of crap is bound to happen. But just once I wish the first person to see a madman pull his gun out in a crowd would be some young Marine or soldier on leave carrying a 1911 or a SIG instead of the average soccer mom with her kids.

[Syntax360]

It wasn't gun control, the SWAT team, or the massive police presence that stoppped the gunman - it was (almost) instant intervention from another human being armed with a firearm and good intentions, off-duty cop or not. It's just a shame that it had to be "a fair fight" and there wasn't some other like-minded person to aid the officer or stop the gunman sooner.

EDIT: I retract the part about the mall being posted - I'm having a real hard time verifying the posting status of the mall and I don't want to contribute to any misinformation floating around. Can anyone local to that area verify this part for us?

[OBIWAN]

They now say 5 dead

[Musketeer]

I give as much respect to "No Weapons" signs at stores as is required by law. That would be none in my state and most others. This latest shooting only reinforces the reason for my decision.

Perhaps I am a nut but am I the only one who considers the possiblitiy of one of these mall rampage shooters every time he is at a mall with his family? As I sat with my 4 month old giving him a bottle a couple weekends ago I sat at a bench in a corner giving me a perfect view of my surroundings specifically because I wanted to see anything coming or going on. Malls are the center of existence for many of these deranged juvenile nut jobs. The fact that they would choose them as the place to go out in a blaze of gunfire is not a real surprise.

I don't consider myself paranoid or living in fear. I acknowledge that the chances of it happenning while I am there are very slim. I consider it in the same way that I keep smoke detectors fed with new batteries, check my household fire extinguishers and wear my seat belt. Of course I also pay attention to where the exits are from airliners I am on and movie theaters I go to, something I believe the majority of people out there do not do.

[BillCA]

News reports say the shooter was an "18 year old man". No doubt we'll find out he was simply a "misdirected youth".

I still suspect drug involvement, prescription or otherwise.

[threegun]

The Demoncrats will undoubtedly use this incident to push for more gun ban laws. I just wonder when everyone will get it through their thick skulls that crazy people will always be out there. No matter the gun law, no matter the right to carry or not, bad people will do bad things and you had better be ready to defend yourselves. You and only you are responsible for protecting yourself against them. Had any of Utah's citizens, both the victims and survivors, protected themselves perhaps it would have saved others and themselves.

Hats off to those of us who suffer through the time, expense, responsibility, and inconvenience of doing the right thing, the American thing, in choosing to be prepared by carrying a concealed weapon. It is a shame that many more of us aren't willing to suffer as we do.

[threegun]

Musketeer, You are no more paranoid than anyone willing to consider and prepare for anything that might harm them. The odds are slim yes but I bet everyone in that mall would have given everything they own for the cheapest Hi Point pistol at that moment. Doing the smart thing, the right thing sometimes is hard but when that rare occasion happens at least you won't die like a helpless victim.

[waynedm]

When Minnesota changed its laws so that anybody could get their permit 'so and so bans gun on these premesis' signs popped up everywhere. After about a year or so of business owners getting the 'No Guns, No Money' cards thrown in their faces they let off and started pulling the bans. It's very rare when I see a gun ban sign in places other than it is federally banned like courthouses and schools.

Imagine if somebody would have been carrying in that mall and was near where the perpetraitor was? One dead, maybe two instead of five or six?

The thing that worries me about news like this is that the Democrats aren't giving much attention to gun control these days it seems. Gun control hasn't been a huge debated issue yet with Presidential runners, news like this may just be enough to bring it into the center ring.

[markj]

so few CCWers like us

Last mall event I read about there was a guy CCW, he drew and got shot.

I see it differently, I would get my loved ones to a safe position and protect them from the shooter. I would not go hunt him, if I had a shot at him I would take it but I would not leave the family to go look for him. This could be a bad thing to do.

[Musketeer]

markj has a point. The last publicized mall shooting was in Tacoma Washington. A CCW permit holder confronted the rifle armed criminal and challenged him rather than shooting him (due to the shooter's "youth"). The citizen was shot due to his delay and the last I heard may be paralyzed for life below the spinal injury he suffered.

First thing, those who are firing into the crowd at a shopping mall are not to be verbally challenged by civis. Their first verbal warning should be the sound of a gunshot.

Beyond that one must consider their other responsibilites at the time. Sitting at the mall with my 4 month old feeding at a bottle my first concern would be getting him to safety, as well as my wife and daughter who were in a nearby store. Even if I am alone if I just here shots I will NOT be heading INTO the combat zone but out of it.

Now if I am not concerned about the escape of my family and already in the immediate area then I may act as seems best based on the information availalble. Do I know if it is two gang bangers trying to kill each other, a deranged and degected teen looking to have his face on the news, a domestic going on in public or even some terrorist looking to fly the magic carpet to Allah? In the two recent mall shootings it has been a nut with a long arm firing into random crowds. That may be pretty clear if you see it from the start but comming in after the fact opens up the possiblity of you shooting or being shot by the other CCW holder, off duty cop, responding officers or even one of the two parties who may be both criminally exchanging fire.

It is best to have a plan. All the malls near us have supply hallways behind the stores in each wing. Go through the "back door" in any stoor and you will come to a hall which will lead to the outside. My wife knows that if she hears shots she is taking the kids through the closest store's back door and out. I intend to do the same. Store employes have no say in this, and would be smart to lead the way if shots are ringing out. She is not going to try to make her way through the press of sheeple in the center of a mall when shots start ringing out while trying to avoid loosing either a baby or 5 year old. Given the acoustics in most malls it might even be hard to tell where the shots are coming from and one could as easily run into trouble as running away from it by staying in the mall proper. We both have cell phones but even if they are not working we know to meet up at the car with the kid or kids in our care and not to worry about the other who will be doing the same. The rule on meeting up applies to other things like evacuations for fires and chemical spills.

[OBIWAN]

And don't forget that concerned citizen that emptied his weapon into that bad guy who was wearing body armor

The choice to intercede is a personal one

The need to be smart about it is imperative

Even if the bad guy doesn't get you...responding law enforcement might shoot the first armed person they see...and that might be you

[threegun]

Mark, Nobody is suggesting that anyone go looking for trouble. What we are suggesting is that if many more people did carry then the likelihood of someone getting that shot without going out of their way would be greater. You are correct in that my family is my number one priority. Under some circumstances ending the threat might be the only option to insure their safety. In another perhaps after they are safe a shot becomes available allowing you to help a fellow citizen. Finally some people have no family to be concerned with and would be willing to risk all for a fellow citizen in need.

BTW, The CCW civilian in the other mall shooting incident froze after noticing that the shooter was young. Obviously he wasn't prepared mentally to be carrying nor did he understand anything about tactics. I promise you that most of the cwp holders on this forum would have changed the outcome of that one as well.

[Desert Heat]

I don't think anybody could say what they would do in that situation. Instincts take over and the fight or flight response starts to creep up. Either you run for cover or be the hero and try to disarm or shoot him. If you do pull out a pistol and take him out the cops could easily kill you in a mistake.


What happened yesterday was a tragedy and my heart goes out to the people and families that are effected. This will no doubt have an impact on our 2nd Amendment rights and these kind of shootings need to stop before the Libs do something drastic.

[DanV1317]

I love and hate stories like this. I hate that people died. I love that it reminds me why i carry every day.

[Desert Heat]

One person carrying could make all the difference.

[Musketeer]

I don't think anybody could say what they would do in that situation.

That has some limited truth.

The group most likely to respond poorly will be the group which has failed to even consider the situation.

The next slightly better off group will be the one who has considerred it but written off further analysis of it becaseu they assume nobody will know what to do anyway.

The next far better off group is the one that has considerred the situation and set up some rough rules on how to behave in such a situation.

Nothing is 100% but by havnig at least considerred the situation and having some previously considerred options in place you will be far better to react than someone depending on the idead to come to them in the heat of the moment. This is basic human nature and has been seen in people who have responded to disasters from airline crashes to building fires to terrorist attacks. The preparred mind deals with the sudden disaster far better than the unpreparred mind. Nobody expects their airliner to burts into flames on the runway or their skyskraper to be hit by a plane and collapes but interviews with surviors have shown that those who had a plan in place and accepted the possiblity of a disaster were far better off tham the "lemmings" who were at a complete loss and unable to respond effectively. The same applies to self defense shootings.

FYI, the civilian who engaged the criminal wearing body armor was Mark Wilson in Tyler Texas. He was killed despite having put several 45 ACP rounds on target against an AK clone weilding, cocealed armor wearing, estranged husband on the court house steps. While he died he was creditted by the sheriff as having saved the life of at least the nut job's young son and possibly the deputies who had already been shot on the stpes of the court house. His exchange of fire with the criminal bought time for police to respond in force and forced the criminal to leave the seen with his executions unfinished.

[OBIWAN]

Thanks Musketeer...I was thinking it was Texas but could not remember the specifics

No doubt that he was very brave to intervene

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Chris Bird has a book that supposedly has a definitive view of the Texas incident. I may have this wrong but the civilian in Tyler hit the BG who went down behind a truck. Then the civilian circled the truck to see what happened to the bad guy - who then shot him.

In hindsight - the civilian should have went for cover after the initial clash. However, hindsight is worth what you paid for it.

Mall intervention is one of the great paradigmatic debates in the gun world. The Washington Mall incident points out some problems. The good guy probably helped folk, however his challenge tactic was obviously a poor one. There is no need to challenge an active shooter, if one has a good shot at a clearly identified target.

It points out that for people, some reasonable FOF is a good thing, if one can afford it and it is available.

[O6nop]

The next far better off group is the one that has considerred the situation and set up some rough rules on how to behave in such a situation.

This is a terrible tragedy, and I for one do not have the answer.

One person carrying could make all the difference.

If I understand the article, there was one off duty cop present, he very well could have saved a number of lives.

If it ever gets to the point where there would be multiple CCWs in a similar situation, and they all had the opportunity to draw down on the BG, would they be able to discern that the other CCWs were the good guys? I'd hate to be shot or to shoot another person thinking he was in league with the BG. All a guy would have to do is wear plain clothes, carry a handgun, and hunker down behind something and he wouldn't be able to be differentiated among the others. The fact that he walks in brazenly upright, wearing a trenchcoat, blasting away, helps us figure out the nut case is the primary target.

This is just a thought as I sit safely away from trouble and have time to consider 'what if's'

[Musketeer]

All a guy would have to do is wear plain clothes, carry a handgun, and hunker down behind something and he wouldn't be able to be differentiated among the others. The fact that he walks in brazenly upright, wearing a trenchcoat, blasting away, helps us figure out the nut case is the primary target.

Excellent point. We have one thing going for us though in these types of shootings. The criminal is usually trying to:

1.) Make as big a display as possible. Marching through the mall with a shotgun or rifle blasting away is just "cooler" to this type of nut.

2.) Is suicidal, or at least inclined to suicide by cop. They are not taking cover because they do not plan on walking away.

3.) NOT tactical thinkers who have thought out anything beyond go in, killl lots of people, die in a hail of gunfire and get on TV. Their concept of tactics includes watching Hollywood movies.

The type of person content who is concerned about self preservation does not start a gunfight to kill civies in an aread certain to draw a rapid response from many police officers. Certainly not in a place like a mall with video observations and the ability of the police to approach from any direction. THis person most likely will stand out as a nut job. After engaging and eliminating I would advise taking serious cover until the cavalry arrives as well as holsterring your weapon in a concealed condition. Let the repsonding LEOs know of it in a way to make THEM feel safe, most likely meaning when you are prone with multiple guns pointed at you and expect to be treated as a suspect.

Aside from the ramage killer described above who does what they do for recognition (even terrorists fall partly into this category. Although they may have a plan to escape they have no intention of perfomring their attack in a low key manner. Blating away into fleeing crowds makes better headlines after all.)

The other most likely gun fight in a mall is between gangbangers in which case there will be a rapid firing of multiple shots between two or more parties followed by the parties running off in opposite directions to flee aprehension. They do NOT want to get caught and are not standing around to hose down third parties. Innocents may still get hit but they are not the object of the attack. This is likelty to be "over" before anyone can react.

[BillCA]

Some good discussion here regarding tactics, identification and responsibilites.

A few of my thoughts.

1. Don't go looking for trouble.
   If the shooter comes your way before you can exit, then you can deploy lethal force.
2. Get you & yours to safety as quickly as possible.
3. In the event you are near the shooter, seek cover and/or concealment rapidly.
4. If you and yours are exiting the rear of a store and you are the only armed person, consider being the last one out. Not from heroism, but to deter the BG's aim or pursuit if he sees people leaving.
5. Properly identify your target! As Musketeer pointed out, a crazy individual may be easy to spot. Differentiating a running gangbanger from a poorly dressed Joe CCW'er will be more difficult.
6. Do NOT draw your weapon until you are in a position to use it. If shots are fired and you're running with a bunch of people, gun in hand, a cop or CCW'er may think you are the shooter.
7. Do NOT verbally challenge an active shooter. Align your sights and squeeze!
8. Forget "fair play", such as not taking the shot when the shooter is reloading or because he is walking away from you. End the threat!
9. If the shooter does go down, retain your covered position and cover the subject. He may have another weapon and/or not be as badly hurt as you think he is. Keep others away too, there is no sense in giving him the gift of a hostage.

In reviewing the above, we might boil this down to an acronym, just like PD's and CCW instructors like to do. That acronym might be CRAP!

C - Cover is your friend, find it, use it; even if that means exiting the area.
R - Reconnoiter the situation, if you can, to identify the hostile(s).
A - Assess the situation and develop your plan
P - Perform your action plan (retreat, wait or engage)

(Former-military readers will understand the need for an alternative plan since no plan survives initial contact. Feel free to expand it to CRAAP! You will anyhow.)

[mete]

Good points Bill !! ....Can anyone confirm that the shooter was a Bosnian refugee ? The name certainly fits !

[BIGR]

Just another event to get the liberal gun control minded congress in the more gun control mode. They just don't get it. With all the laws already on the books, a low life scum sucking moron is not going to obey them. Pass a law that says all sane minded non criminal American Citizens over 21 must carry at all times.