30-06 project

[TXGunNut]

Started looking for an accurate 165 gr hunting load for my new M70 using two Hornady bullets, the spire point (3040) and the SST (30452). Old reliable handload wasn't cutting it. Decided on four powders; Varget, 4064, IMR4350 and H4350. Last several trips to the range have featured eight loads combining the four powders and two bullets. Today I'm down to four with IMR4350 not making the cut, no idea why I can't make this powder work for me. May be the heat, seems I can't get out there on the range unless the temps are in the 90's, often upper 90's. Chamber is a bit towards the minimum end and this rifle doesn't like loads anywere near published maximums.
Suggestions?

[Ozzieman]

Since you’re not going for magnum levels then use what I use in all my 30-06,
4895

[rwilson452]

Another powder you may find to your liking is Reloader 15.

[wncchester]

Some rifles just don't shoot well.

[TXGunNut]

Good point about 4895, OZ. May need to take another look @ that powder.
RL 15 looks good but I've no experience w/ RL powders. What do you like about them, rwilson?
And yes, wncchester, some rifles just don't shoot well. My first Super Grade was a good example of that. The nice folks at the warranty center replaced that rifle with this one and it's looking very good so far. After five range trips I have four out of eight loads under 1MOA, just not much under. And no, I don't have a safe full of rifles that all shoot MOA or better. I'm not going to be upset if I don't make this hunting rifle shoot .5MOA but I'm going to make a few more tweaks because it would be a shame to not find out if this beauty can pull it off.
I just can't figure out why a "go-to" powder like IMR4350 won't work for this rifle. The aversion to warm loads and tight chamber are something new for me as well. I guess that's why I like loading for rifles!

[Slamfire]

You have basically covered all the powders I normally use.

IMR 3031 is an excellent 30-06 and 308 powder. Long sticks, slightly faster than IMR 4895.

But with all the load testing you have conducted, I will bet you have a bedding issue.

[TXGunNut]

I've wondered about bedding. Only the action screws are bedded, was considering re-doing that and bedding the chamber as well. It has a tendency to string vertically on the hotter loads.

[Jim243]

TX

I use the 150 gran SST #30302 for 30-06 with H4895 and have good results, but hunting here is in 20 degree weather (MI and WI) so I am not sure what your results would be. Have just started to use IMR 8208 XBR but only in 223 as yet. But it is suppost to be less temp dependent that most powders..

165 GR. SIE SPBT IMR IMR 8208 XBR .308" 3.300" 44.6 2667 55,100 PSI 46.5 2728 58,000 PSI

I can tell you this will be a hot round so load mid level to start. That's based on my testing it with 60 grain A-max in 223, excelent performance.

Jim

[Unclenick]

I would look at re-crowning as well. If 4350 is a particular problem, one reason may be that because it is slower, loaded to a matching pressure as compared to a faster powder, it will produce greater muzzle pressure. If there is any tiny imperfection in either the base of a bullet or the crown at the muzzle, increased muzzle pressure will exaggerate that error.

In general, no gun will shoot even the best ammunition to its potential if the crown is asymmetrical, the bolt lugs don't mate pretty evenly, or if the action moves around in the stock. Sometimes a bore constriction can cause the issue, too. (You need to slug a bore with soft lead slugs to feel those. Meister bullets makes slugging kits, as does Beartooth Bullets.)

I have instructions for using a ball bearing as a lap that you can download from my file repository, here. Lug lapping devices can be had from Brownells, if you have the means of removing your barrel? Bedding kits can be had from Brownells, also, though reading up on bedding and just using JB Weld does pretty well. If you have a constriction to clear, firelapping kits are available from NECO and Beartooth Bullets. I would not use the Wheeler kit available at Midway, having read its instructions and found them to have been written by someone who didn't understand the process well.

[rwilson452]

I have used it to great success in both 308 and 30-06. In the case of my synthetic stocked Model 70 I bought at walmart, it gave my a sub 1 MOA group with 150 gr bullets that no other powder I tried would. I started with good old IMR 4895 and went on to quite a few others. I still use 4895 for my Garand loads.

Good point about 4895, OZ. May need to take another look @ that powder.
RL 15 looks good but I've no experience w/ RL powders. What do you like about them, rwilson?

[TXGunNut]

First I've heard of 8208 powder. Interesting. Really want to use the 165 but I do have another 30-06 that seems to prefer 150's.
Rifle is mechanically very sound as far as I can tell, Unclenick. Have checked the lugs and crown very closely and the bolt face is square as well. Last rifle had issues with the bolt and possibly other areas as well. Haven't checked for bore constrictions, may give it a try. That could explain the elevated pressures. It just seems odd that my best group so far is with H4350 and IMR4350 isn't even close. Best answer is probably insufficient testing. I reduced the loads a bit; 47 grains each of 4064 and Varget, 55 of H4350. Too hot once I got them loaded so will do the "paperwork" another day.
I realize I'm splitting hairs trying to get better than MOA out of a hunting rifle but I have fond memories of another 30-06 that. Maybe I need a target rifle.

[TXJohn]

TXGunNut, You may want to try H414 or Win 760 same powder. I have a friend who swears by this the starting load is 51.0 to 56.5max. I use IMR4064 and IMR4350 out of my 06's so I understand your frustration. Good Luck John

[GAR700]

+1 on the RL 15. It has worked reasonably well in all rifles I have tried it in. It might not be the best in those rifles but it is a reasonable option to try.
GAR

[mehavey]

It has a tendency to string vertically on the hotter loads.

Have you tried getting a piece of 60-grit sandpaper out and relieving the stock/barrel channel (i.e., free-float the barrel) back to just forward of the chamber?

That could explain the elevated pressures.

How did you diagnose elevated pressures (chrony? primers? head expansion?)

[James R. Burke]

In my 06 I use a Nosler 165 grain Partition with IMR-4350. I am under max, and just over 3,000 f.p.s. on a five shot average. AT 100 yards it will shoot five or seven shot groups one inch or less all day. I am sure better than I can do. You may need to try a differnt bullet or powder, or the c.o.l. I stay just of the lands with mine. Real close.

[Buzzard Bait]

My rem 700 06 likes a max load of ww 760 and a nosler balistic tip 165 gr. I started using the load long ago and have also used sierra 165 gr game kings as time went by the newer load books showed a max load about ( I'm going on memory here) 3 or 4 grains lighter than what my older load books listed. I had fired a lot of the old loads with no hint of a problem and still had about 50 loaded to the original load. I couldn't bring my self to load a round that was beyond the max listed in the loading manual so once I had used up my supply of loaded rounds I dropped to the lower amount and still get good results.
bb

[William T. Watts]

TXGunNut FWIW I went thru three 30/06 rifles before I found one that would group, Model 70 Winchester with a Boss (bedding problem, I didn'nt want to glass a new rifle), Savage 114 Classic with a oversize bore .3018" (would only group with heavier bullets) and a Ruger Greyhawk that grouped well with virtually everything I shoot thru it. I do not want to spend a lot of time or money on components if a rifle is going to deliver so so grouping. I've never owned a 30/06 that would group using either Hodgdon or IMR4350, on the other hand IMR4064 has delivered outstanding accuracy in any 30/06 I've ever loaded for. For what ever reason 30/06 caliber rifles have given me the most trouble over the years in the accuracy department. William

[hooligan1]

I have had super success with 58 grs., using 150 gr. ballistic tips, in my older 700, same hole most times from the bench.

[Unclenick]

TXGunNut,

Federal has used RL15 to replace IMR 4064 in their .308 Gold Medal match load using the 168 grain SMK, so I look at it as a similar-to-4064 powder in the .308. I've also run RL15 successfully in the .308, but haven't got around to trying it in the '06. I find IMR 4064 to be a superior powder in the '06 partly because of its bulk, and my guns also like Varget and the no-longer available Brigadier 4065 in that chambering very well.

It occurs to me that a lot of times people miss load sweet spots by incrementing loads too much. Take a read through Dan Newberry's site for a good systematic approach to finding best loads.

[RKG]

My best experience with 165-gr slugs (in my case, 168 SMKs and 165 SGKs) in an '06 have been with Win 748 and RL-15.

That said, the results you report suggest that you take a starting load and experiment with Cartridge Overall Length (COAL). Get yourself a Stoney Point guage, which will tell you for any given bullet what the COAL is that translates in to the bullet just touching the lands. Now subtract .015" (15 thousandths of an inch) and load ten rounds, .025" for ten more, .035" for ten more and .045" for ten more, all with the same charge, same headstamp brass, and same primer. My guess is that you'll find one set of ten rounds significantly more accurate than the others.

At this point, you can begin adjusting the load for further refinement.

[TXGunNut]

Finally figured out it wasn't the loads, it was the gun. I knew something was wrong. When I did get a decent five shot group I couldn't repeat it.
Excessive headspace, among other things. Even factory loads had stretch marks, heads were all but separating after four firings. (Posted on another thread.)
Mailed it back to Winchester today. A carelessly cut chamber has no place in a $1000 rifle.
Just posted about my USPS experience in the General Discussion area. This rifle project is turning into a nightmare.
You nailed it, wncchester. If neither 4350, 4064 or Varget in proven loads like these guys and I load will produce a decent group using good reloading practices it's time to take a hard look at the gun, or in this case, the brass. Couldn't miss it after the last firing.
Still curious about RL15 and 8208 but will have to wait until the big brown truck brings me a long, skinny box.

[TXGunNut]

mehavey; barrel is nicely free-floated and the flattened primers (Federal) could be explained by the headspace or another undiagnosed chamber/bore issue. Never got serious enough to power up the Chrony.
Lost cause. Thanks for trying, everyone. This one was better than the first, hope "three's a charm".