2nd/3rd gen colts

Hardy · March 6, 2011, 05:22 PM

I have always thought that these guns were made by Ubertie and possibly Pietta and were inspected by colt reps in England before they were stamped by colt. Thru a reliable source, they were not and were all made in NY with only some springs from Italy. That's good to know if you are a collector.

WBH

junkman_01 · March 6, 2011, 06:53 PM

Hardy,

Read this.....

https://www.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF...fColtBlack.pdf

Hardy · March 6, 2011, 07:23 PM

Junkman

Thanks for posting that. We have that in the store. I was just stating what I was told today by a retired Colt Ex over the phone. So---did colt make them or not?

Hawg · March 6, 2011, 07:27 PM

No, Colt didn't make them. They did the final fit and finish on second gens. Colt only supplied their name for the third gens. They were made by a company called Colt Black Powder Arms Co. Colt acknowledges second gens as real Colt's but not third.

Slamfire · March 6, 2011, 07:29 PM

When I returned my defective 3rd Generation Dragoon back to Colt, I talked with them about "who made these"

The parts were Italian, Uberti I believe. There was just enough work to be left that by the content laws at the time, Colt was able to claim these were "made in America".

I suspect the work to be left was polishing and handfitting. They did verify that the cylinders arrived chambered and the barrels were rifled.

Hardy · March 6, 2011, 08:26 PM

I again thought that the 3rds were made in Italy, and inspected by colt.BUT I was told that even the 3rds were made in NY except for springs. And everything else was made- finished and blued in NY.

Hawg · March 6, 2011, 08:32 PM

Quote:

When I returned my defective 3rd Generation Dragoon back to Colt,

That's the first I've heard of Colt doing anything to a sig series.

Hardy · March 6, 2011, 08:45 PM

Ok. I had an 1860 army 3rd (still posted under brass frame deals) look at it. I sold it/ but it shot better than any of the repos. I have! I have an 1851 navy (3rd gen colt) that I just pulled out and compared it to a Uberti 51 and a pietta 51. There is absolutly no drag on the hammer or any feel of roughness (but slick smooth) as compared to the other 2 which could possibly use some polishing in hammer hand channel and recoil slot. But , I will say the Pietta is smoother than the Uberti. I believe that Colt probably made some bad 2nd and 3rds. But I ain't shootin the ones I have except the 51 Navy. Action is great and would appeal to a marksman which unfortunately is not me.

Fingers McGee · March 6, 2011, 08:51 PM

Quote:

That's the first I've heard of Colt doing anything to a sig series.

+1

To rehash:

C series 2nd Gens were made in Hartford under the Blue Dome using parts that were made in the US and Italy. They were finished, inspected, marketed and warranted by Colt's

F Series 2nd Gens were made in Middlesex NJ by Iver Johnson using parts made in the US and Italy (Case hardening for these was done in Hartford). They were inspected, marketed, and warranteed by Colt's. Some later F series models were assembled in Arkansas.

Signature Series models were made in Brooklyn, NY by John Jovino and Co. under the trade name Colt Blackpowder Arms Company that was a special licensing agreement with Colt's. Colt's had nothing to do with the Sig series guns.

Hardy · March 6, 2011, 09:02 PM

And/ Thanks Fingers. We're getting useful info on these from everyone. Again thanks for your info

ALSO ---Colt gen guns were never cleaned after the test firing. So--get to work

Wild B Hickup Hardy

Hardy · March 6, 2011, 11:08 PM

um, here is warranty card from a 3rd navy "All Colt's Firearms are built to exacting standards of engineering and manufacturing and are rigidly inspected before leaving our factory. They are warranted to free from defects in material and workmanship under normal use and service for a period of 12 months from date of purchase. Colt's obligation is limited to repairing or replacing, F.O.B. Hartford , Conn., USA., any part of a Colt's Firearm which Colt's examination to be thus defective."

This from a 3rd gen 1851 Navy #C1121 serial 9097

But this is not a signiture but is stamped 3rd and has antiqued tarnish trigger guard and loading leaver is hard cased. Blued barrel has kida of antiqued wearing to match.
Is this better than a signiture? Curious?

Fingers McGee · March 6, 2011, 11:31 PM

Hardy, All Signature Series Colts, AKA 3rd Gens - except the Paterson - have the Sam Colt signature on the backstrap.

A model C1121 with serial number 9097 is a 2nd Generation C series 1851 Navy that was made in 1973. When made, it came in a two toned brown Colt clamshell box. Where is it stamped 3rd????

Hardy · March 6, 2011, 11:41 PM

I thought it too to be a 2nd--shop keeper told me it was 3rd. The wood box has a blue felt and on the side of cardboard box is mgic market red "3rd." You know I really was confused. Now, here's the ques : Is the plated trigger guard supposed to be tarnish and the barrel and frame look a little out of perfect? I like the gun though. It vcame w/ wrappings cards etc along w/ WB Hickock postcard

What it be worth?

Hardy · March 7, 2011, 12:20 AM

I meant that it being in a dark blue felt box indicated 3rd. But not seeing signiture series made me wonder, especially the cardboard box but seeing in red marking 3rd next to serials, I supposed it to be a 3rd. I should no better

Woa- I got out of subject!!! Ok, we know 2nds were somewhat made in Hartford and 3rds were made in Brookland but questionable if they were by colt Um gona look in to that AND (uberti parts etc.) But they are still collectibles. I like the guns with colt stamped on them whether 2nd or 3rd. This might be a good thread for collectors seeking advice on buying these. Really! And posting what you have

Fingers McGee · March 7, 2011, 12:50 PM

Sounds like someone put a 2nd Gen Navy in a Sig Series case, and unknowingly passed it off as a 3rd Gen. I've seen these on the auction sites in the past.

Suggest you get a copy of 'Percussion Colt Revolvers - The Second Generation; Collectors Handbook and price guide #5' By Dennis Russell. It's got the straight skinny on 2nd Gens. He has also included some info on Sig Series guns.

The plated trigerguard is silver, and will tarnish over time if left out in the air. Boxed/stored guns take longer to tarnish. By keeping mine clean and lubed with balistol, they haven't tarnished. What do mean by 'a little out of perfect'?

There is a collectors forum at
http://blackpowdersmoke.com/revolvers/index.php and
http://blackpowdersmoke.com/collectors/index.php

Hardy · March 7, 2011, 06:36 PM

It was purchased at auction as antiqued tarnish by colt. But , I like the gun but wonder still why red magic marker on brown and white cardboard box says 3.

You know what... The sig series colt boxes say "the Authenic Colt Black Powder"

Um, is that a lie since just posted 3rd gen were not made by colt---or some grey area hype? In my mind - Colt wouldn't claim this if they were not their product.

WB hichuping

Hawg · March 7, 2011, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Colt wouldn't claim this if they were not their product.

It's not Colt's box.

It's the box for Colt Black Powder Arms. An altogether different company from Colt.

Hardy · March 7, 2011, 07:08 PM

So ...Colt gave them the right to to use COLT and also put Samuel Colt Address NY on gun? There has to be some type of agreement there or ????

junkman_01 · March 7, 2011, 07:22 PM

Now you are catching on. It was an 'agreement'.

Hawg · March 7, 2011, 07:23 PM

Quote:

So ...Colt gave them the right to to use COLT and also put Samuel Colt Address NY on gun? There has to be some type of agreement there or ????

Colt authorized them yes but turn it and twist it anyway you like it doesn't make them real Colt's.

Hardy · March 7, 2011, 07:31 PM

Ok I looked at black manual and it says exactly what you said. I am definitely going to find out tommorow what type of agreement Colt Industries had w/ Colt black powder arms and...and why they could use, confuse, abuse, the consumer ...selling them as "Authenic" Colts . Sam is rolling in his grave right now- I'm certain.

WB Hickup Gonna grab a beer on all this! Cheers

.

Hawg · March 7, 2011, 07:47 PM

Actually when the third gens first came out they copied the Colt pamphlet word for word including warranty information. Colt put out a disclaimer saying they would not warranty or repair a third gen.

Fingers McGee · March 7, 2011, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardy

So ...Colt gave them the right to to use COLT and also put Samuel Colt Address NY on gun? There has to be some type of agreement there or ????

Thats's what I said in post #9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fingers McGee

Signature Series models were made in Brooklyn, NY by John Jovino and Co. under the trade name Colt Blackpowder Arms Company that was a special licensing agreement with Colt's. Colt's had nothing to do with the Sig series guns.

Hardy · March 7, 2011, 08:08 PM

I know Fingers. I done finished my beer, might get a 2nd. Yall want one? Well, originally I thought they were uberti and inspected by colt reps in London --Where did I get that from? But at least there was some agreement to use the Colt trademark name. They are pretty though. Why didn't they put out a 4th. Probably didn't see enough demand in competition with Italy---I guess.

madcratebuilder · March 8, 2011, 11:00 PM

I don't believe this keeps getting rehashed over and over.

2nd gen C series were made at COLT. Colt used raw barrels and cylinders from Uberti. All other parts came from North America. All machining and finish work done at the blue dome. It's a dancing pony!

2nd gen F series, same parts but work done by Lou Imperato company in NYC with inspections by Colt employees. Marketed and lettered by COLT. It's still a dancing pony.

3rd gens F series, same parts from Uberti plus hand grips. All other parts, final machining and finish work done by Colt Black Powder Arms Co. (Lou Imperato) UNDER LICENSE from COLT. This pony can't dance, but it's still a pony

All of the above is well documented in several books available today. If you have an interest in the 2nd or 3rd gen get a copy of Dennis Russell's book "Percussion Colt Revolvers The second Generation".

March 6, 2011, 05:22 PM	#1
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	2nd/3rd gen colts I have always thought that these guns were made by Ubertie and possibly Pietta and were inspected by colt reps in England before they were stamped by colt. Thru a reliable source, they were not and were all made in NY with only some springs from Italy. That's good to know if you are a collector. WBH

March 6, 2011, 11:31 PM	#12
Fingers McGee Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks Posts: 2,113	Hardy, All Signature Series Colts, AKA 3rd Gens - except the Paterson - have the Sam Colt signature on the backstrap. A model C1121 with serial number 9097 is a 2nd Generation C series 1851 Navy that was made in 1973. When made, it came in a two toned brown Colt clamshell box. Where is it stamped 3rd???? __________________ Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

March 7, 2011, 12:50 PM	#15
Fingers McGee Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks Posts: 2,113	Sounds like someone put a 2nd Gen Navy in a Sig Series case, and unknowingly passed it off as a 3rd Gen. I've seen these on the auction sites in the past. Suggest you get a copy of 'Percussion Colt Revolvers - The Second Generation; Collectors Handbook and price guide #5' By Dennis Russell. It's got the straight skinny on 2nd Gens. He has also included some info on Sig Series guns. The plated trigerguard is silver, and will tarnish over time if left out in the air. Boxed/stored guns take longer to tarnish. By keeping mine clean and lubed with balistol, they haven't tarnished. What do mean by 'a little out of perfect'? There is a collectors forum at http://blackpowdersmoke.com/revolvers/index.php and http://blackpowdersmoke.com/collectors/index.php __________________ Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

March 7, 2011, 07:31 PM	#21
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Ok I looked at black manual and it says exactly what you said. I am definitely going to find out tommorow what type of agreement Colt Industries had w/ Colt black powder arms and...and why they could use, confuse, abuse, the consumer ...selling them as "Authenic" Colts . Sam is rolling in his grave right now- I'm certain. WB Hickup Gonna grab a beer on all this! Cheers.

March 6, 2011, 06:53 PM	#2
junkman_01 Junior member Join Date: November 9, 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 260	Hardy, Read this..... https://www.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF...fColtBlack.pdf

March 6, 2011, 07:23 PM	#3
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Junkman Thanks for posting that. We have that in the store. I was just stating what I was told today by a retired Colt Ex over the phone. So---did colt make them or not?

March 6, 2011, 07:27 PM	#4
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	No, Colt didn't make them. They did the final fit and finish on second gens. Colt only supplied their name for the third gens. They were made by a company called Colt Black Powder Arms Co. Colt acknowledges second gens as real Colt's but not third.

March 6, 2011, 07:29 PM	#5
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	When I returned my defective 3rd Generation Dragoon back to Colt, I talked with them about "who made these" The parts were Italian, Uberti I believe. There was just enough work to be left that by the content laws at the time, Colt was able to claim these were "made in America". I suspect the work to be left was polishing and handfitting. They did verify that the cylinders arrived chambered and the barrels were rifled. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

March 6, 2011, 08:26 PM	#6
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	I again thought that the 3rds were made in Italy, and inspected by colt.BUT I was told that even the 3rds were made in NY except for springs. And everything else was made- finished and blued in NY.

March 6, 2011, 08:45 PM	#8
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Ok. I had an 1860 army 3rd (still posted under brass frame deals) look at it. I sold it/ but it shot better than any of the repos. I have! I have an 1851 navy (3rd gen colt) that I just pulled out and compared it to a Uberti 51 and a pietta 51. There is absolutly no drag on the hammer or any feel of roughness (but slick smooth) as compared to the other 2 which could possibly use some polishing in hammer hand channel and recoil slot. But , I will say the Pietta is smoother than the Uberti. I believe that Colt probably made some bad 2nd and 3rds. But I ain't shootin the ones I have except the 51 Navy. Action is great and would appeal to a marksman which unfortunately is not me.

March 6, 2011, 09:02 PM	#10
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	And/ Thanks Fingers. We're getting useful info on these from everyone. Again thanks for your info ALSO ---Colt gen guns were never cleaned after the test firing. So--get to work Wild B Hickup Hardy

March 6, 2011, 11:08 PM	#11
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	um, here is warranty card from a 3rd navy "All Colt's Firearms are built to exacting standards of engineering and manufacturing and are rigidly inspected before leaving our factory. They are warranted to free from defects in material and workmanship under normal use and service for a period of 12 months from date of purchase. Colt's obligation is limited to repairing or replacing, F.O.B. Hartford , Conn., USA., any part of a Colt's Firearm which Colt's examination to be thus defective." This from a 3rd gen 1851 Navy #C1121 serial 9097 But this is not a signiture but is stamped 3rd and has antiqued tarnish trigger guard and loading leaver is hard cased. Blued barrel has kida of antiqued wearing to match. Is this better than a signiture? Curious?

March 6, 2011, 11:41 PM	#13
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	I thought it too to be a 2nd--shop keeper told me it was 3rd. The wood box has a blue felt and on the side of cardboard box is mgic market red "3rd." You know I really was confused. Now, here's the ques : Is the plated trigger guard supposed to be tarnish and the barrel and frame look a little out of perfect? I like the gun though. It vcame w/ wrappings cards etc along w/ WB Hickock postcard What it be worth?

March 7, 2011, 12:20 AM	#14
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	I meant that it being in a dark blue felt box indicated 3rd. But not seeing signiture series made me wonder, especially the cardboard box but seeing in red marking 3rd next to serials, I supposed it to be a 3rd. I should no better Woa- I got out of subject!!! Ok, we know 2nds were somewhat made in Hartford and 3rds were made in Brookland but questionable if they were by colt Um gona look in to that AND (uberti parts etc.) But they are still collectibles. I like the guns with colt stamped on them whether 2nd or 3rd. This might be a good thread for collectors seeking advice on buying these. Really! And posting what you have

March 7, 2011, 06:36 PM	#16
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	It was purchased at auction as antiqued tarnish by colt. But , I like the gun but wonder still why red magic marker on brown and white cardboard box says 3. You know what... The sig series colt boxes say "the Authenic Colt Black Powder" Um, is that a lie since just posted 3rd gen were not made by colt---or some grey area hype? In my mind - Colt wouldn't claim this if they were not their product. WB hichuping

March 7, 2011, 07:08 PM	#18
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	So ...Colt gave them the right to to use COLT and also put Samuel Colt Address NY on gun? There has to be some type of agreement there or ????

March 7, 2011, 07:22 PM	#19
junkman_01 Junior member Join Date: November 9, 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 260	Now you are catching on. It was an 'agreement'.

March 7, 2011, 07:47 PM	#22
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Actually when the third gens first came out they copied the Colt pamphlet word for word including warranty information. Colt put out a disclaimer saying they would not warranty or repair a third gen.

March 7, 2011, 08:08 PM	#24
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	I know Fingers. I done finished my beer, might get a 2nd. Yall want one? Well, originally I thought they were uberti and inspected by colt reps in London --Where did I get that from? But at least there was some agreement to use the Colt trademark name. They are pretty though. Why didn't they put out a 4th. Probably didn't see enough demand in competition with Italy---I guess.

March 8, 2011, 11:00 PM	#25
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	I don't believe this keeps getting rehashed over and over. 2nd gen C series were made at COLT. Colt used raw barrels and cylinders from Uberti. All other parts came from North America. All machining and finish work done at the blue dome. It's a dancing pony! 2nd gen F series, same parts but work done by Lou Imperato company in NYC with inspections by Colt employees. Marketed and lettered by COLT. It's still a dancing pony. 3rd gens F series, same parts from Uberti plus hand grips. All other parts, final machining and finish work done by Colt Black Powder Arms Co. (Lou Imperato) UNDER LICENSE from COLT. This pony can't dance, but it's still a pony All of the above is well documented in several books available today. If you have an interest in the 2nd or 3rd gen get a copy of Dennis Russell's book "Percussion Colt Revolvers The second Generation".