Order of Fit: slide, frame, barrel & bushing

[Dave Sample]

I think those pictures are almost too good, Shorts. Wow.
This is what the factories call tolerances and most dust covers are not the same on both sides. This looks like a Colt Lower and you can make it work.
Nick can be of more help than I can on the sear angles and hammer hooks. I have my hammers like this one cut square on a mill with a carbide flat end mill and I have a Wilson sear jig that I use to stone the sear that has the angle I want to use and is never changed. I do not bother with that stuff any more because Chip has a hammer and sear that is better than I can do already done and that is what I use now. I don't have time for those two day trigger jobs that still weren't great but had to be settled for. Since this is a learning experience all I can do here with those parts is wish you luck and hope you can make them work OK. Hang in there, Shorts. This is going to get interesting!

[Shorts]

Dave, I think I am going to order the McCormick sear and hammer. But I'm going to tool with this sear and hammer to see if I can get it to work, for a little practice. I went ahead today and ordered a reduced pak of mainsprings from Wolff. Not sure which will work the best, but out of the three, I can get close.

[Jammer Six]

Shorts, I went around and around with three sets of McCormick stuff.

The bottom line is that they aren't made to spec, and they are more difficult to fit because of it.

The other thing I learned is that the set that's sold as the "Wilson Value Line" is the same as the McCormick stuff.

I did it all in public, and wrote more than you would ever want to know about it here.

There are good people in that thread, people who know about trigger jobs, and will tell you what you need to know to do them right.

You go, and let us watch!

[Dean Taylor]

Jammer,

You are welcome to try any of my 1911s. Several have CMC trigger, sears, hammer and disconnectors. They are better than or equal to any of the other systems I have in other 1911s.

Shorts - good luck and have fun with your project. I suggest you pay most attention to those giving advice who post with their real name and location.

Dean
[email protected]
410-952-7848

[Hunter Customs]

Hello Shorts,
I will not tell anyone how to spend their money but I will say when it comes to trigger group parts or any parts for that matter the cost of using top shelf parts over the cheap parts is money well spent. Top shelf parts will be good quality tool steel, they cost more but they are not MIM.
As for lapping a frame and slide I like 38-900 and finish with 38-1200. A slide lapped to the frame this way will feel like it's rolling on ball bearings.
Good luck with your project gun.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

[Shorts]

I originally slated the McCormick sear and hammer as the parts to purchase for this project. I took them off my Brownell's order until after I received the lower to see what I did and didn't need. But, if this lower is 20yrs old like I think it is, fresh new parts couldn't hurt.

I had read a lot of grumbling about MIM parts. But while reading them, I also read "show me where they failed and have caused so much trouble for you". So, I'm in the middle and probably in the position where I should just see for myself which parts work and which don't. It's tough when there are differing opinions amongst the ranks. Although, I feel confident in those I tend to lean towards.

Jammer Six, I read most of your tread, a lot of reading I do need to go back and finish it.

My thinking on the aftermarket parts, regardless if they're in spec or not, the ones I have here are more than likely not either. In fact, I know they're not in great working order because I tootled with the lower befor I disassembled it. So, new parts or old parts, they will need adjusting.

[Dave Sample]

When you decided to enter the World of Pistolsmithing, you made a decision to build a gun the way you want it and that is fine with me.

I am used to working with high end parts that have the holes in the lower end in the right place for what we do. Years ago, I measured the holes in 21 Colt lower ends and every one of them was different. This is where the "Trigger Work" skills come in and the hard road to make inferior parts work OK. None of us will ever use the "High End" trigger compoments again because they are not easy to do without a mill and years of training. I have installed three of these trigger groups personally and would never spend the money for them again because they add nothing to the 1911's we work on here. I can understand Bob"s advice because it is not his money and he has to back up his work and tell his customers what wonderful parts he uses. I agree with that 100% for him. I am not going to spend three times the money for parts that I have to re-cut on a mill and then stone on a sear jig. That ain't me.

I want a 1911 trigger to be safe and break clean at about 3 1/2 to 5 lbs. I like a heavier pull on my personal guns but that is because I do not sit around and dry fire them and think how wonderful they feel. I want them to go 100,000 rounds before anything goes bad and so far, so good. That is why I like the hardest parts that I can find for these little machines.

There is one more thing. Chip McCormick is a personal friend of mine and I like all of his stuff. he is one of the most likable and honest men I know. The other "High End Parts Guys" will make you anything you want, charge you an arm and a leg, and after you revise it, it is good stuff. Too good for poor old me.



Hey! Who's those guys and gals with Dave! Man , am I glad I quit those donuts!

[Jammer Six]

The important information about McCormick sear and hammer geometry was pointed out by Chuck Rogers.

I spent more money and learned more about the 1911 during that thread than anything I've done before or since.

[Hunter Customs]

I have all types of customers that I build guns for, law enforcement who stake their lives on the guns I build, CCW holders that stake their lives on the guns I build, competition shooters, and folks that just enjoy good quality guns. They all agree on using the best parts available. I could never and never will advise anyone in good faith to use cheap parts. It's true that quality parts need fitting but then again trigger jobs are part of pistolsmithing. As for the 100,000 round test that's where competition shooting comes in, as it's the competition shooters that shoot the large amounts of ammo every year that will prove how well parts are made. These are the people that test the parts to see what works. I know not one serious competition shooter that pays to have a gun built that will use MIM parts.
Now as for name dropping meaning anything or having pictures taken with someone, my oldest grandson who is eleven shot the Area 3 match this last weekend. He was squaded with some of the biggest names in the shooting world. Now this don't mean a thing except that he had the chance to shoot with some of the best shooters in the world and we both had the chance to meet some very nice folks.
As for Chip being a nice guy, I'm sure he is I like his mags.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

[Tamara]

I had read a lot of grumbling about MIM parts. But while reading them, I also read "show me where they failed and have caused so much trouble for you".

I haven't seen a MIM part fail since, oh, Monday afternoon (hammer strut.) The week is young, however.

[Dave Sample]

I use Ed Brown Hammer Struts. So far, so good. I like Chip"s, but don't use them. The strut is important to the geometry in a trigger group, but don't quote me. I use what works best. Bob Hunter and I always will be light years apart. He is in business and I am not. That makes a big difference, maybe.

As for Chuck, last time I knew he was using Wilson hammers but I don't know what he uses now. We do not talk and have't for years. I know he knows what's what in a 1911.

Some people have a natural affinity for messing things up. The parts people love them. I have two factory barrels here that a very well know Gunsmith riuned. That takes real talent to destroy a drop in factory barrel. I am not that good yet.

[Shorts]

Well, I picked up my Craftsman vise and set of needle files. Those things are awesome. I just about have the bushing fit to the slide, I just need to turn it and lock it in. There was some clearance issues with the locking tab and the slot in the slide. Even though the bushing was fully seated, the locking tab wasn't clear of the slot wall. Now, do I reduce the top edge on that tab enough so that it does fit? I am aware that the fit between the two need to be snug. Should I leave the horizontal edge of the tab slightly in favor of "uneven" so that as I rotate the bushing it gets snug? Or all the way even?

I've also started on the slide and barrel fit. I polished the breechface and disconnector track. Although they are smooth, you can still see the tool marks. I measured the barrel hood and needed to narrow it, so I filed a little off the sides and got things centered. I also had side battery on the barrel face, so I filed them down to clearance the slide shoulders. When those were fit, I polished the faces. When doing my tests, I marked the barrel surfaces with a black sharpie. Not the coolest and mybe not the best method, it's what I had available, but it worked just fine for me to see any high spots.

Alright, I have to head out. Sorry no pics today but I will get things rolling after tomorrow when I can devote my full attention to this. The barrel still neds work in the slide and frame. Any wisdoms would sure be appraciated.

[Dave Sample]

I use the "Captain Eagle Smear Fit" sometimes for bushings like this. I put the slide in a vice with the bushing intalled with the barrel in place and the whole thing is smeared with JB Bore Compound. Then I simply use my Big Kings Bushing wrench and turn it back and forth until it gets hot and turns easily but still it very tight. It works for me!

[Bill Z]

I don't presume to know as much as Dave or Chuck about the 1911, I learn from both of them as I am proud to call each of the two my friend. (Not name dropping Bob, it's just a fact.)

I can see the differences in the geometry that Chuck points out, there is no denying it. I have used original Colt hammers several times and like them, and will soon be trying some Wilson hammers also. I also am interestred in George Smith's (EGW) trigger group and am placing an order early next week there gathering parts for two customs on the books. I have also used the Yost-Bonitz group and it is in a full custom that's out getting prepped and blued right now.

I also know about the CMC parts. We average about a dozen and a half of these trigger groups a year with new students that have never built or worked on pistols before, and have had no trouble with them, period. There is no denying that they work, and I have a personal pistol with over 5000 rounds through it plus lord knows how much dry firing from me and people who look at the pistol. Chips parts have always served us well, and the company has always supported us wholey. (No Bob, it's not a name drop or a random pic, Chip and Ray are quite good friends, so was/is Armond, unfortunately he isn't there anymore, and he owe's me lunch!)

Interestingly enough, this is practically, probably identically(not sure) the same trigger group that Kimber uses. They sell about 50,000 copies a year, and relatively speaking, have few problems that I am aware of. I've jsut never seen a hammer and sear set break from CMC or Kimber, but I know I only see a relatively small amount of firearms.

Where am I headed with this? For a first time builder like Shorts, who is doing an admirable write-up and super photo's (by the way, what camera are you using? I'm jealous and just gotta know) the CMC parts are quite economical, have a great track record, and if you can resist not fixing what is not broken, will seve you well. All you need to do is cut a relief angle, insure even contact on both hammer hooks, and then try to wear them out. It will take quite some time.

[Bill Z]

Tam,
I'm curious. What type of pistol and what type of failure on the hammer strut. Where did it break? Particular brand? I've only had trouble with the geometry of certain struts in 1911's, but never a breakage problem.

[Jammer Six]

It will take quite some time.

Took me about six months.

The hammer strut and thumb safety that I broke were both MIM.

[Dean Taylor]

I am also curious about the hammer strut that broke. What brand in what?

I have shot 1911s over 50 years and easily over 1 million rounds and have never broken a hammer strut. Why have I not had tgrouble when it only took Jammer 6 months to break one?

Bob - you have made it clear you do not like CMC parts. Specifically whose trigger group parts do you like? I am an amatuer metal worker. Thank you in advance for your answer.

Dean
[email protected]
410-952-7848

[Shorts]

Alrighty, I ordered a CMC sear and hammer from Brownell's, so......

And sometime this afternoon my Novak sights arrived. I didn't realize how hefty they were. I know they don't go on until later later, but I thought I'd show 'em off.



Bill Z, my camera is a Nikon 4800 I just picked up a few weeks ago. It was a little more than I wanted to spend, but I found it for a pretty good price after some searching.

[Bill Z]

Took me about six months.

The hammer strut and thumb safety that I broke were both MIM.

Well, while I was talking about hammer and sears if you would have read the entire statement, not struts and safeties, I have a broken Ed Brown laying around here that came off of a pistol and a really bad C&S safety. The breakage on these can sometimes be attributed to poor fitting. I've never had a strut fail or seen one fail, that is why I am curious as to where they break. I could see where poor fitting, or I should say the lack of fitting one/checking one would cause undo stress and cause this, but would like to know the weak point to see if my theroy makes sense. Same for the thumb safety, where did it break? The EB I have broke at the pin, but appeared to be caused by the lifting action 90* to the frame as in when it's dissasembled. I think there muxt have been a bind somewhere.

[Bill Z]

Shorts, that camera seems to be worth the bucks. I use a Sony DSC-85, probably discontinued by now, and use the manual settings. I don't think I can get nearly that close with the macro though, especially with that clarity. You get what you pay for and that camera may be one I look to upgrade too in the future.

[Shorts]

I think so, I'm really loving it. I never tried the macro on our other camera, so I can't compare it to this one. Although the optical and digital zoom on it was 3-4x. The optical zoom on this Nikon is 8.3x. The features on it are nice. Normally I don't use the "froo froo" buttons for different scenes and conditions, although on this camera, I am. I can definitely see the better quality in the pics. Coupled with a 256mb card, the possibilities are endless! .....until I kill the battery

Alright, I got my vise set up today on my work table. I forgot how much I enjoy putting stuff together I punched the center with my cool spring loaded punch, drilled a pilot w 5/32", then 3/8" and finished with 1/2". I got everything secured with parts from my garage bucket. I did have to deal with too fat, too long or too short, hence the stacked washers on the 2x4. We'll see if they break and I catch the flying debris, but so far so good. Maybe later on when I hit Home Depot I'll get some new hardware and switch them out. I also have leather straps curing in the jaws to protect the work.

[Dave Sample]

Listen to me very carefully, Shorts. When I had to put the Online1911 Class together I had to select parts that would work for a first time builder. There is no way I know of to teach you or anyone else to do Sears , Disconectors, and Hammer Hooks over the Internet, period. It would entail a very expesive Bob Marvel sear and hammer jig jig and add $150.00 to the price of the tools and the resulting trigger pulls would be very erratic. I would not know where to begin to tell someone where to set the set screw or rollers or whatever on a jig. They would have to follow Bob's instructions to the letter and use expensive parts that would be ruined daily. My sear jig remains the same as it has been for 20 years. It is a Wilson that used to cost about $20.00 landed and it is great for me.

People who have not spent 20+ years learning how to do action work like to use pre-fit trigger groups that go in pretty easy. I have done that myself lately with a Dane Burns trigger group that he sent me a few years ago to test. It is in the 400 Cor Bon EAGLE III as we speak. That one is unfired as yet because I have been casting bullets and ordering various stuff so I can do some up to date load development for that load. Peter Pi seems to be stuck there and there needs to be some more messing around with this cartridge.
The new C E LE MAY 45 has a Ted Yost trigger group in it that was a hard one to use for me, as the holes in the sear and hammer were too small and the hammer hooks had to be re-cut on the mill to get rid of the wire cut on the 90 degree angle. I am picky about this and i called Ted before we cut it abd asked his permission to do it. He gave it freely and I made them work with a beautiful 3 lb trigger pull using a stock black short plastic trigger that was in the spart parts bin.
DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME OR AT THE OFFICE!

Pistolwrench quoted me on another forum and said:
"Yesterday I couldn't spell pistolsmith, and now I are one!"

I am sure Chip will get along fine without selling his parts to Bob Hunter as he has done very well in the parts business with pals like me who do not like to denigrate suppliers for no reason. I am buying 24 sets of parts this year not including the extra stuff I use personally.

Bob Marvel told us his new jig reallky is the hot ticket to sucess with trigger work. We has a long talk with him at The Shot Show. His work is very beautiful and he is a very sharp man.







Here is Bob and Bruce at the Caspian Booth in late January talking about 1911's? He builds some really fancy Caspians that have a lot more Bling than ours. They are also very accurate and have wonderful trigger pulls that I will never come close to. Mine work OK and are long lasting, but Bob is light years ahead of me in the trigger pull department.

I have an Old Nikormat 35mm that I love dearly. It cam used from the Denver Post and it is an antique now. I love your camera, Shorts.

I have shot about 500,000 and have never broke a hammer strut. I am amazed at the talent it must take to do that! Wow is me!

[Handy]

Why do you say it takes "talent" to have a MIM part fail in a stock gun. Who's fault is it, since it couldn't be the part itself?

[Bill Z]

Same kind of talent it takes to break a hammer with a feather?

[Jammer Six]

So was I, Bill.

I broke a MIM hammer strut and thumb safety (both stock parts on a Springfield Milspec), I replaced the stock hammer and sear with McCormick parts (are they the same as "CMC"?) because they were cheap, and wore them out in about six months.

I'm not sure we're helping Shorts with all this foolishness, but I would like to know if CMC is the same as McCormick, it would explain a lot of other things I've read recently.

The strut I broke snapped almost exactly in half.

The thumb safety broke right next to the pin, that is, the unbroken pin remained in the hole, but the lever and the rest of the safety snapped off it, at the juncture of the pin and the lever.

I was on the firing line in both instances, with the thumb safety, I loaded the weapon in the middle of a stage, racked the slide, and tried to put the safety on, but it wouldn't go, because it was broken.

With the hammer strut, again in the middle of a stage, the hammer was suddenly no longer under tension.