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May 15, 2015, 12:37 PM | #26 | |||
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If you want your default action to be tap, rack, bang no matter what your senses tell you, rock on. It's not something I've seen advocated before. Let's do a quick scenario. Late at night (can't see the brass), gun stops shooting. If it's a failure to feed when you go to pull out that mag it won't go. Now you're in a double feed situation and you clear it without the need for the tap, rack, bang you mentioned. It it's a failure to eject situation and you drop that mag and rack the slide the spent casing will fall out in the process. In both those cases you're back in the fight. In the first case faster than defaulting to tap, rack, bang, and the second case a bit slower. You'd be right to point out you're out that magazine though, so maybe not tossing that mag and feeling the top of it for a cartridge would be a good idea if you have the cover. Also a good reason to carry a backup and multiple backups if at home (at home the spill from my weapon mounted light would let me see if there was or wasn't brass in that ejection port when the firearm stopped). So it would seem the failure to eject situation is the big loser for the different order of operations and I have to say again that even in low light the slide will be locked to a noticeably different location. If it's pitch black then I am not sure what I am doing shooting without being able to identify a threat. Again my default action isn't to automatically do anything, it's to take a split second and assess. I guess my point is each order of operations has its advantages and disadvantages. What you said though about low light makes me think that defaulting to tap, rack, and bang in low light might well be a good point. You might counter with the thought that I should use the same order of operations no matter the time of day and I might even agree there, however when we drive cars we typically leave more distance between them when driving in bad weather as opposed to good. We're creatures of habit but we can adapt too. You've given me something to think about though. Last edited by TunnelRat; May 15, 2015 at 06:51 PM. |
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May 15, 2015, 11:12 PM | #27 |
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For a practiced shooter, the slide release method is likely to be quicker, as shown.
I used it for a while. Then, I ran into an issue. On a cold day, my fingers started to go numb. Pressing the slide release suddenly became a difficult task. (Magazine release wasn't pleasant either, but being a direct push rather than a sliding motion, was manageable.) Wearing thick gloves induced some of the same issues. I switched to the overhand method after that. ...then I started shooting the M9 more, and occasionally decocked it by accident. That took some training to overcome, since I wanted to stick with the overhand method. So, to me, the tradeoff is a little bit of speed or a little bit of reliability. I went with the reliable option. |
May 16, 2015, 12:16 AM | #28 | |
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Tap-rack-bang is so widely taught that I would have said it's universal. |
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May 16, 2015, 08:27 AM | #29 |
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As a required action before every reload? No. I'm certainly aware of its usage to clear malfunctions.
Last edited by TunnelRat; May 16, 2015 at 08:44 AM. |
May 19, 2015, 12:25 PM | #30 |
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Heck, I can't even keep track of rounds fired when I slow-fire my revolver.
On my M&P 40 Pro, both slide release tabs broke off completely (not at the same time), and it's the gun I used to shoot ESP division in IDPA. So, no slide release to use at all. I actually left it that way for almost 2 years as I never it found it that easy to find or use in a hurry. So, +1 for using the gorilla mitt method. I've also come close to gashing my palm wide open releasing the slide with the reach-over-and-grab method. This is on one or two guns I own that have nifty razor-sharp rear sights (my Witness Hunter comes to mind). This simply comes from not getting that left hand out of the way fast enough, and having a rear sight substantially taller than the slide. There's +1 for using the slide release. The great thing about practice is that, hopefully, the shooter doesn't get all flustered when one specific technique doesn't work for whatever reason. Another great thing about it--it often means shooting more. That's nice.
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May 19, 2015, 12:34 PM | #31 | |||
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With a diagnostic technique you sequence through the OODA loop in serial fashion: Observe – Orient – Decide – Act. A diagnostic technique requires time to Observe, Orient and Decide. A “click”, “no bang”, “squishy trigger” and “visual examination” all require time to sense (Observe) and determine what the problem might be (Orient). Then you have to consciously make a Decision - what technique do I use to clear the stoppage? It requires greater mental effort. The decision-making process is susceptible to being corrupted by faulty Observation and/or Orientation. A non-diagnostic technique (Observe – Act) using a progressive series of immediate actions is quicker because it short-circuits the Orientation and Decision phases and it is more reliable under stress. It also allows you to train as you plan to fight because you don’t care what is causing the stoppage – you simply progress through a series of immediate actions until you get the pistol running again. When you Observe that the first immediate action (Tap/Rack) didn’t clear the stoppage you instantly progress to the next Action (Combat Reload). When you Observe, during the Combat Reload, that you cannot insert the fresh magazine into the magazine well because the “depleted” one didn’t jettison you instantly progress to the next Action (put the fresh magazine between the ring and pinky fingers of your firing hand, clear the double-feed and finish the Combat Reload). |
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May 19, 2015, 12:56 PM | #32 | ||
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Your notion of just doing Observe and Act is also not new. However, whether declared or not when you diagnose that one technique didn't work you are in fact Orienting and when going to the next technique you are still Deciding, otherwise you'd just try the same technique over and over. Removing them from the diagram and still performing them implicitly doesn't actually gain you anything. The idea of turning the human mind into a machine is appealing in that a machine is typically faster than a human. However the greatest strength a human has is the ability to think outside of a set of rigid protocols and adapt. The true machine alternative would have us standing there trying to jam the magazine into the gun over and over assuming that eventually it will work. I understand what you're suggesting is having a technique so ingrained in behavior that it becomes essentially automatic and having a natural progression of techniques to solve a problem. I'm not opposed to this. However, what this requires is extensive training, which is ironic as you regarded this as "hypothetical" above (I'm not sure hypothetical is the right word here; the training actually happened and the clearance procedures and types of stoppages are based on established reality). Completely removing the Orient and Decide phases puts you at risk of encountering a malfunction you haven't seen before and blindly repeating your known clearance methods without an actual solution. By all means streamline the best you can, but never lose the ability to think when you need to.
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Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness |
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May 19, 2015, 02:01 PM | #33 | |||||
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The “Implicit Guidance and Control” in Boyd’s OODA Loop illustration (above), which in essence bypasses the “Orient” and “Decide” phases, is the reason why we train. We want our actions to be intuitive – we “Observe” and then we quickly progress to “Act”. There is very little conscious thought. We read the situation as it happens and react to it as it unfolds. This is how we operate at a faster tempo. Pistol failed to fire?: Tap/Rack Tap/Rack fails to get the pistol running?: Combat Reload Can’t insert the magazine?: Clear the double-feed and complete the Combat Reload. Quote:
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May 19, 2015, 02:11 PM | #34 | |||||
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Last edited by TunnelRat; May 19, 2015 at 02:30 PM. |
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May 19, 2015, 03:42 PM | #35 | |||
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May 19, 2015, 04:55 PM | #36 | |
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I don't get it. Training is both simultaneously adequate and inadequate by your definition. It would seem that to you the only way to train appropriately is to follow the teachings of the one trainer you mentioned. You also have no idea what I will or won't experience in a fight (even my own knowledge of that is extremely limited) nor do you know anything of my own abilities. You're just parroting what you were taught without allowing the possibility of alternate methods. One of the most useful instructors I ever took a course with constantly encouraged us to consider if what we were learning from him 1. made sense 2. was applicable to us. His point was for us to not blindly digest his instructions and to be open in the future to other teaching styles and ideas. I have repeated this before and said I understand streamlining. What I am saying is the ability to diagnose a previously unseen situation is also important. Last edited by TunnelRat; May 19, 2015 at 05:23 PM. |
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May 19, 2015, 07:56 PM | #37 | ||
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Last edited by Derbel McDillet; May 19, 2015 at 08:05 PM. |
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May 19, 2015, 09:10 PM | #38 | |
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We're obviously not connecting on the same wavelength. I respect your experience. Best of luck. |
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May 19, 2015, 10:12 PM | #39 |
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the secure gateway has terminated the VPN connection...
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June 5, 2015, 12:17 PM | #40 |
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QUOTE: Some guns, like the Beretta, as shown in the Vickers video, don't take well to the hand-over method -- as it's easy to decock the weapon if you're not careful.
This is very true and inadvertently decocking certain pistols (including Third Generation Smiths) can also occur when clearing a stovepipe jam by sweeping your support hand over the top of the slide. This (arguably remote) possibility is something to be mindful of with many pistols having the decocker/safety lever mounted on the slide.
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June 5, 2015, 12:45 PM | #41 |
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My ccw has a full mag 17 rnds if I have to reload it then I shouldn't have been where I was in the first place to worry about the extra little time to overhand rack. Also with a lot of pistols if you slam the mag in there it racks it's self. To each their own and what they feel comfortable doing.
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