June 27, 2016, 10:42 AM | #26 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 14, 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,575
|
I'll go along with Brit. I tried thumb and forefinger and can't get a malfunction !
In a similar test I took my M1 90 Benelli and fired it like a pistol -one handed, butt not touching my shoulder.Worked perfectly ! Must not be doing it right .
__________________
And Watson , bring your revolver ! |
June 27, 2016, 11:35 AM | #27 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
|
Yep. The idea is that the hand on the frame holds said frame in place while the slide recoils over it. If that isn't done, the physics get messed up and the slide doesn't work right.
"...lacking in upper body, arm and hand strength..." It's not upper body, arm and hand strength. It's upper body, arm and hand tone. The slide does not recoil against the bullet. It recoils from the forces created by the gasses against the return/recoil spring. The bullet going forward is just one result of said gasses being created.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count! |
June 27, 2016, 12:09 PM | #28 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: November 21, 2011
Location: Southern Louisiana
Posts: 1,399
|
Quote:
What part of the gun do you believe restrains the rear of the recoil spring while it is being compressed? Do you believe that any force is exerted on the frame by that compression force? If you're interested, it's relatively easy to compute the effects of those equal forces on the components of the gun. I did that 4 or 5 years ago during a discussion on slide forces, it could easily be extended to the frame if you want to expend the effort: Quote:
Last edited by 45_auto; June 27, 2016 at 12:22 PM. |
||
June 28, 2016, 02:12 AM | #29 |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,832
|
I'll leave it to others to explain mathematically, but the observed results are that some recoil operated guns don't seem to care about how they are held, and other do.
What is the math to explain how a gun that is jamming repeatedly in the hands of one shooter, functions flawlessly in the hands of a different shooter?? Same gun, same ammo, same time on the range, same everything, except the person holding the gun (and how they hold it?) I've seen it happen with others, I've been personally involved myself, it IS a real thing. What differs seems to be the way people explain it. When the only difference is the person holding and shooting the gun, logic suggests that if the gun acts differently, it must be because of something the shooter is doing, or not doing, differently. If it not the way they hold the gun during recoil, then, what is it??
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
June 28, 2016, 06:09 AM | #30 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 21, 2011
Location: Southern Louisiana
Posts: 1,399
|
Quote:
The shooter experiencing the jams is not providing enough force to allow the velocity of the slide relative to the frame to be high enough to properly eject the brass and transfer enough energy into the firing mechanism and recoil spring to load the next round. To operate properly a recoil operated weapon requires a force on the frame in the opposite direction of the recoil. This force must slow the frame enough to allow the relative velocity of the slide to eject the fired casing while at the same time cocking the firing mechanism and compressing the recoil spring far enough to store sufficient energy to load the next round. The recoil force on the gun is only exerted during the 1/1000 of a second that the projectile is being accelerated (F = MA). Everything after that is due to the inertia of the barrel/slide. If one shooter's grip does not provide sufficient force in the opposite direction of that recoil force, then the frame is moving rearward with the slide, thus the velocity of the slide relative to the frame is low (poor ejection) and the force delivered to cock the firing mechanism and compress the recoil spring is low (feed problems). |
|
June 28, 2016, 08:08 AM | #31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 1,055
|
Amazingly it seems,the recoil spring has no bearing on the recoil part of the cycle it's on the return part when it functions as intended.Assuming we are talking about a 1911 it has been shown that the pistol will function without a reaction spring and that includes ejection.If no recoil spring is present no recoil is felt.A 13# reaction spring should reliably strip a round from the magazine and possibly a lighter one functions just as well so no great need of wrist support is needed for normal operation.
|
June 28, 2016, 09:38 AM | #32 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 7, 2009
Posts: 568
|
Quote:
|
|
June 28, 2016, 09:40 AM | #33 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 7, 2009
Posts: 568
|
Quote:
|
|
June 28, 2016, 11:20 AM | #34 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 1,055
|
Quote:
OP would like to know whether a weak wrist could cause a failure to eject. And my point is that shell ejection takes place even without a recoil spring so if you fire a pistol that is within specs all you are doing is holding it and aiming steady.It will eject fine whether you death grip or not. |
|
June 28, 2016, 11:45 AM | #35 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 7, 2009
Posts: 568
|
Quote:
|
|
June 28, 2016, 11:52 AM | #36 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 1, 2000
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 8,518
|
I've done the thumb-and-one-finger deal, trying to induce a malf, and it's never worked.
I handed the gun to my then-roommate's sister, and she had two or three malfs per mag. She was clearly holding the gun with a firmer grip than I was. I've heard the argument that an all-steel gun can't be limp-wristed, as the weight of the gun alone is enough resistance to ensure function, and while that would appear to be true while I'm holding the gun and trying to induce a malfunction, it's not true when someone else held the gun and tried not to.
__________________
Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong. |
June 28, 2016, 12:24 PM | #37 | ||
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,832
|
Quote:
Quote:
Resistance, is a word we generally recognize. It is "force in the opposite direction" in math, but our common perception of force is some kind of "push", and we don't really see resistance as a push. I was once shown a higher math problem where a swimmer swims the length of the pool, and back, climbing out at the same spot where he began. There is a math formula(s) that "prove" the swimmer went nowhere. Most of the folks I know, would disagree. It's a matter of perception and definition of terms. With a recoil operated firearm, mass matters. Mass is the "force in the opposite direction" via inertia. Mass of the entire weapon and mass of the moving parts. 30lb recoil operated machineguns don't care about how you hold them in order to operate. They have a large excess of mass, above what is needed to operate. A 3lb (or less?) handgun does not have as much of an excess of mass. Some have enough, others seem to be right on the line, and need a certain degree of resistance (through the shooter's grip). If they don't get it, malfunctions result.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
||
June 28, 2016, 02:14 PM | #38 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,787
|
Quote:
Quote:
A revolver is certainly a solution, but it comes at a trade-off, usually, of capacity. A heavier gun is, all else being equal, very likely to be less susceptible to the type of failure being discussed, but there is a trade-off of carrying around the extra weight. A less flexible frame (metal versus polymer) may also reduce the risk of such failures, but has the same trade-off of carry weight and, in some cases, a difference in perceived recoil. By all means, use what you are comfortable with; just be aware that you are, in almost every case, trading one shortcoming for another. That is, in my opinion, the essence of handgun selection. |
||
June 28, 2016, 10:22 PM | #39 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 1,055
|
Quote:
|
|
June 29, 2016, 07:36 AM | #40 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 21, 2011
Location: Southern Louisiana
Posts: 1,399
|
Quote:
Thanks for explaining that, it's obviously because they have no recoil spring! Last edited by 45_auto; June 29, 2016 at 07:45 AM. |
|
June 29, 2016, 08:53 AM | #41 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 1,055
|
^
That gets a special non sequitur,nonsense mention. This is The semi auto forum And OP's question was about semi autos |
|
|