SxS's for H/D!

[Dreaming100Straight]

You keep having to use a straw man argument about tricked out tacticool weapons with lazers and all the bells and whistles, when all I am saying is that a standard pump or semi is preferable for HD over a double.

I also doubt there will be a running gunfight, but let's look at your statement. I believe most of us also doubt that we will ever have a home invader, yet we keep an HD gun. (I also have a double, which can be used for but really is not well suited for HD; an 0/U desiged for clays.) Using your logic, there is no point in keeping a defense gun since the likelihood of needing one is doubtful.

I think it prudent to have a defense/survival gun and while a double is better than nothing, I went with a standard pump holding 6 in the tube and sporting a 18.5". Some call that a conventional weapon.

Do I expect 6 bad guys? Hell no, but if there is ever any need, I realize the possibility that I could miss and the added possibility that the BG may have a buddy or two. I expect that most burglar types are going to run like heck even if the first shot is a miss, but I don't want to chance that they don't run.

If you want to get right down to it, I don't think a shotgun of any type is the best HD weapon, but a handgun is preferred. The combination of the two is best.

Of course they might line up single file and hold still to be shot, in which case a double is plenty. But there will always be some who insist on bringing a knife to a gunfight.

[Erno86]

I've heard the that the best sized shot for a HD shotgun is #7 1/2 shot, because it will go thru 1 section of drywall an drop down on the other side.

[Bill DeShivs]

Dreaming- we agree. Standard guns. There is no need for tacticool toys-except as toys.

Erno- you heard wrong.

[Model12Win]

I've heard the that the best sized shot for a HD shotgun is #7 1/2 shot, because it will go thru 1 section of drywall an drop down on the other side.

I have heard this as well about birdshot. Also, at typical home defense distances it will stay clustered together and be as effective as a rifled deer slug, without all the overpenetration.

I keep Winchester AA 7 1/2 2 3/4" shells in all my HD guns.

[Dreaming100Straight]

Dreaming- we agree. Standard guns. There is no need for tacticool toys-except as toys.

Erno- you heard wrong.

Bill. I kind of went overboard and got argumentative. A double is actually just about as good as a pump or semi and especially depending on one's defense plan and if it includes a pistol. Mine is basic to stay hold up on the upstairs landing and wait for the police with the SG pointed at the stairway, but I would like to have a pistol if I need to move around or have to use the phone to call police and such. In that case, a double is just about as good as any other SG.

I don't eve want to get into this nonsense about birdshot. It is well covered in may threads and web sites.

[lefteye]

12 ga. 2 3/4 " #1 buck is the best for home defense.

See: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

[jimbob86]

Birdshot is for birds.

I wouldn't even use it on a bird that invaded my house (badminton racquets work better with less collateral damage).

[JD0x0]

Birdshot is for birds.

Yes it is. There's a video floating around about a kid who got shot 3 times point blank with a shotgun and lived.
First shot nearly took his arm off. Second shot was directly into the chest. 3rd shot was to the head, but the kid was still conscious and pushed the muzzle far enough that it caused a grazing wound.

He was left to die, but managed to walk to a main road where he found a police officer.
Here's the video of the kid telling the story.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c54_1344642657

From the looks of it, It only seems he survived because smaller pellets were used, and didn't penetrate enough. Small pellets don't penetrate as well as larger, heavier ones, even at point blank. Don't count on the close range causing them to act like exactly a slug, because it seems that's not completely true.
Sorry, but if a 17 year old kid, caught off guard, can get up and walk after having a popcorn bowl sized chunk of his chest blown off, I wouldn't trust that same load to stop a large angry man being fueled by adrenaline.

[lefteye]

Don't count on the close range causing them to act like exactly a slug, because it seems that's not completely true.

In fact, it is not true at all. In simple terms, the energy and penetration of a shot pellet depends on the velocity and weight of the individual pellet, not the velocity and weight of all of the individual pellets. A 1 1/2 oz load of #6 shot will never penetrate as far in a whitetail as a 1 oz slug.

[Nanuk]

2 shots are fine IF they both hit, IF there are only 2 BG's and IF they go down with one hit each.

[44 AMP]

when all I am saying is that a standard pump or semi is preferable for HD over a double.

What you prefer is what you prefer, logic and reason may, or may not enter into it.

Certainly in many situations a pump or semi is preferable, BUT that means in some situations, it is not.

First off, any advantage to the ammo capacity comes only AFTER firing two shots. It is possible that the pump or semi auto can actually be slower firing those two shots than the double.

The pump/semi will be 5 or so inches longer than the double barrel, with the same barrel length. Is this important? Maybe.

The repeater has a greater likelihood of having a malfunction, either due to mechanical failure, ammo issues, or incorrect operation by the user. The double, is less likely to have the same issues. But, again, is this important? Maybe, maybe not.

Also, here's another thing to consider, "Home Defense". Exactly what is that to you? We focus a lot on what it takes to decisively stop a berserk attacker. That is about the worst possible case. But realistically, how much of that is in the usual home defense?

Anything that drives off the intruder, works. This includes birdshot. And a 17yr old kid not stopped by birdshot isn't proof, any more than Dick Cheney having being "stopped" from a single pellet in a hunting accident, is "proof".

NOTHING works 100% of the time. NOTHING!!!!
(there is a case of a guy taking 2 12ga slugs to the chest and running away! He didn't run far, but he did run away!)

The point of defense is to stop the attack. Not to kill. If death occurs as a result of the attacker being stopped, so be it. Even birdshot can manage this, on occasion. My Grandfather thought a face full of birdshot stood a good chance of changing a bad guys mind about attacking you. I think he was right about that.

Do I recommend birdshot? No. Can it work? Yes. Will it work in all circumstances? No.

[BigJimP]

It comes down to whatever works for each of us ....and in my mind, how much we train with that choice.

If you train with a SXS or O/U ...then its probably just fine / because you presumably will learn how to quickly reload it if necessary.
----------------------
You may choose a shotgun .....I may choose a 1911....somebody else may choose a revolver...some may choose a .22....--- and its all just fine if you get to the range a few times a month and train with it.

[Dreaming100Straight]

44AMP

You played a little game comparing the efficacy of doubles to repeaters, but never made any recommendation, as you did with birdshot. How about telling us which you recommend for use by an average, relatively healthy homeowner who is limited to one firearm for home defense, and why you recommend it?

[Dreaming100Straight]

Training is important, Jim, and I have seen video of how quickly a Thunder Ranch instructor reloads and fires a single shotl sg, but do you really think that someone who trains as much on a repeater isn't going to have the advantage over shooting a double - IN GENERAL?

This reminds me of the gun control lobby's argument that all one needs for self defense are handguns with limited capacity like 10 or even 7 round magazines. By analogy, two shot derringers are all we need.

[BigJimP]

In my opinion ...even if the weapon choice is not optimal ( like a single shot shotgun / or maybe a single action revolver )...it can still be very effective if you train properly with it.

I'm not trying to say I can fire more shots quicker with a single shot shotgun than I can with a 6 shot pump shotgun ..../ ... nor can I fire 5 shots from a single action revolver - and reload and fire 5 more...faster than I can with a double action revolver with a speed loader.../ nor am I quicker to reload a double action revolver than I am a 1911...
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But I can make an argument that a double barrel shotgun is a solid home defense choice ( if you train with it ) ....and so is a single action revolver - if you train with it..../ and so on....
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My buddies and I run a casual get together - at our local range every Thursday / and this week we are doing a course of fire with a lot of Draw and Fire ...type drills - like "Draw - fire 3 - Reload - Fire 3 - Reload - Fire 3"...and based on some input I got from a well know instructor ...our "Par Time" ...to be a "Class C shooter"....is :

Draw and 1 shot ( 2 sec )
Split time between shots is ( 0.5 sec )
Reload and 1 shot ( 3 sec )...

So Draw from holster at buzzer - fire 3 - Reload - Fire 3 - Reload Fire 3 is :
( 2.0 sec ) ( 0.5) ( 0.5) - ( 3 sec ) ( 0.5 sec ) ( 0.5 sec )- (3.0) (0.5) (0.5)

So the Par Time - to train to - is no more than 11 Sec.....
-----------------------------------
We have shooters in my group ...that can run that drill consistently in about 8 sec ( making them a Class A shooter ) ....some guys run it in about 9.5 sec ...and a few need about 15 sec.../ but anyone who is carrying a concealed weapon, that can't run that drill in under 11 sec, in my view, needs a lot more training ...( and maybe should reconsider their weapon for any number of reasons ) ....maybe the gun doesn't fit their hand properly, maybe mags need maintenance, maybe gun needs maintenance...etc....
( and by the way they have to hit 90% of their shots within a "tactical target zone" ...on a silhouette target...about 8 1/2" X 11" ( nipple to nipple on chest - and down to belly button )...so the center chest area...or its a miss / any late shot is an automatic miss ( regardless of why, equipment problem, fumbled mag change, etc...)...

We will run that drill 8 times ( 72 rounds )....twice at 5 yds, twice at 6, 7 and 8 yds....ideally I expect to see all my shots in that 8 1/2" X 11" rectangle...and I'd like to see that center chest area about a 5" circle entirely ripped out of target...
-------------------------------
I have 5 guys showing up this week ... 2 have different models of glocks - one with a red dot / one has a 1911 in 9mm / one has a 1911 in .45 acp / one has a Browning high power....

I already know which 2 guys will be 100 % on target and under time because they train with their choice of carry gun twice a week ...( they both run good 1911's )..../... I know the guy with the red dot will be inaccurate and slow because he hasn't figured out the muscle memory to fire that red dot under the stress of a timer .....but he's starting to figure out that gun with that sight is a poor choice for him ...it isn't working for him ../.... one glock guy is so slow its like watching paint dry on his draw and first 2 shots ...then its rapid fire and reload fumbling...as he stresses out .../ ...the Browning high power guy will be about 80% on time and accurate...

It comes down to training.../ ....some range time.../ ...confidence...and picking the weapon that suits them the best.
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As an example, I can run that drill (Draw - Fire 6 - Reload - Fire 6 ) with a S&W model 19 or 66 revolver ( K frame in .357 Mag )...in about 10.5 Sec...so I'm still under the 11 sec....but not with 3 reloads.../ because it takes me close to 5 sec...( to dumpy empty rounds out of cyclinder - grab a Jet speed loader - drop 6 more rounds into the gun...and fire the 1st shot ).../ does that make the K frame .357 Mag a less effective home defense weapon than a 1911 with 8 +1 in the mag, no, not in my opinion....

But I know I do that with a K frame revolver in that time, because I train with that revolver a little.....and I test myself / and track my times...
Just like I know my reloads to 1 shot with a 1911...are about 2.7 sec.....
My draw to 1 shot on a 1911...is about 2.3 sec ( a little slow )...by Par time..
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None of us are "kids" ...and we have a number of physical issues with some arthritis, bad eyes, etc....and everyone is over 50 yrs old .../ a couple of us are in our mid 60's ...most of us are professionals, none of us are ex cops...we're just "shooters"...
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That's also -- why my personal choice for home defense....is either a mid sized S&W revolver in .357 Mag ( K or L frame ).../ or a full sized 1911 in .45 acp...over a shotgun of any type. A model 686 S&W in 6" is my nite stand gun ....and a Wilson Combat full sized, CQB model is my carry gun...

Like you, I shoot clays with my shotguns primarily -- and while I have some pump shotguns, they stay in the safe with my Over Unders... they just don't work as well for me, for home defense, in my view.
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There is no wrong answer to the OP's choice....its up to him.....

but if I were to guess...if he trains with the SXS---- from the ready :
to 1 shot ...( 2.0 sec ) ....2nd shot ( 0.3 sec )...Reload..(4 sec - to 1 shot ) ( 0.3 to 2nd shot ).... so about 6.6 sec ....from ready to fire 4 shots....is that good enough for home defense...?? The we get into what load ( "OO" vs 2's or 4's or whatever...)....and same thing on handguns....357 mag with 158 gr JHP, .45 acp with 230gr JHP, 9mm with 147 gr JHP...and on and on....

Is my 1911....( 8 + 1 in gun / mag of 8 on belt ) ...17 rds ...at 18.5 sec ok ??
Is my S&W .357 Mag - Reload & 12 rds/in 10.5 sec better than a 1911...or worse..??
Is a Sig 226 ...carrying 15 + 1 rds in 9mm ...better than any of the above...??
....in 9.5 sec.....with no reload....
Is a Sig 226 ..carrying 12 + 1 rds in .40 S&W..better ..??/..no reload in 8 sec.

I own Sig 226's in both 9mm and .40 S&W...and they have way more capacity than a 1911, so why do I think a S&W revolver or a 1911 ...are better choices for me...( its based on how they fit my hands, how well I shoot them - and my training ...)...could I make a Sig 226 work, sure.....

could I make a SXS shotgun work...sure.../ is how I look at it....
-----------

[Dreaming100Straight]

All that is true, Jim, but I still believe my basic point remains valid. Generally, a repeater is a better SG for HD than an Double, which is not to say that a double cannot be a solid HD gun if one trains enough. I am saying that if trained equally well with both, the repeater generally is the superior HD gun.

As you say, almost all my shooting is with a over under. In particular one with 30" barrels and, because of its length it is poorly suited for moving about the home (forgetting about how many rounds it can get off). Still, it is far better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick if hunkered down awaiting police and, why I am no where near as proficient with it as you and many others, I much prefer my short barrel pump for HD.

In short, the question is not if a sxs can be made to work, but if it can be made to work better than a repeater given equivalent time and effort.

Look at it this way. A lot of newbies, just like I did, come to this board with questions as to what to get for a HD shotgun. While for some that put a lot of training in, the coach gun may do a pretty good job, I don't think the new guy should be given the impression that a basic double fills the bill without much more extensive practice than a pump or semi.

[BigJimP]

I disagree....

....your basically saying that 2 shots in 2.3 sec.....or 4 shots out of a SXS in 6.6 sec is not enough.../ when it may be more than enough.

But it doesn't matter...because what works for me - doesn't have to be what works for you / or what works best for the OP.
------------------
In your and my generation the 1911 in .45 acp was king...( and I still like it very much )...but today most of the experts say its more about shot placement than any other factor ...and speed that it takes for you to get that first shot on target with tactical accuracy ! ( spraying the area with misses doesn't count for much )...but you know that...

If you are trained - and accurate --- you may not need a 2nd shot / so capacity might be irrelevant. Now while I understand that more is usually better, just in case, training still trumps capacity in my view.

[Dreaming100Straight]

No, I am not saying that, Jim, and training indeed trumps capacity. Simply put, I am saying that training plus capacity is best and 4 shots in 6.6 seconds may not be enough. I think you agree and if so why would anyone want to leave newbies (as I was not long ago and still much am) with the impression that they are as well served with a sxs? That is my concern; not the experienced shooter who might train to the point that they are damn good with a double, but the first time gun owner to be looking for advice.

Nor am I saying that capacity is always the trump card in choosing a weapon. I am still pondering getting a handgun and just last night was again pondering the pros and cons of a single or double stack pistol and a 5, 6, or 7 shot S&W. Reliability, if it is too large for my wife, if weight controls recoil, concealability, ease to reload, targetability, and etcetera

[BigJimP]

Nope, I'm still not convinced he's making an inherently bad choice by picking a SXS shotgun...

[Dreaming100Straight]

No one said it is a "bad" choice and for an individual it may be the better choice, but in general . . ?

Referring back to the OP, given his particular circumstances his double may indeed be the best choice for him.

[BigJimP]

Ok, if I were to list the top 10 common weapon platform choices for home defense...I would probably rank them as follows :

1. semi-auto handgun - single and double stack options...
2. double action revolver
3. single action revolver
4. semi-auto rifle
5. semi-auto shotgun
6. lever, pump or bolt action rifle
7. pump or bolt action shotgun
8. SxS or Over Under shotgun
9. single shot shotgun
10. single shot rifle
11. single shot handgun
12. can't think of another one right now....( black powder maybe ..??)

Happy Now ??

[Dreaming100Straight]

Happy? Alwaysbut commonality doesn't necessarily indicate efficacy.

[BigJimP]

nor the potential of changing my mind....at least in any beneficial manner...

[44 AMP]

44AMP

You played a little game comparing the efficacy of doubles to repeaters, but never made any recommendation, as you did with birdshot. How about telling us which you recommend for use by an average, relatively healthy homeowner who is limited to one firearm for home defense, and why you recommend it?

What I recommend for such a person is to choose one gun, learn it, and stick with it.

While for some that put a lot of training in, the coach gun may do a pretty good job, I don't think the new guy should be given the impression that a basic double fills the bill without much more extensive practice than a pump or semi.

I look at this question from the other side. I think the coach gun is a better choice for people with lesser training than the pump or semiauto. Because it is, simply, simpler. Also, I'm looking at a specific situation, defensive use. As is keeping the evil away from you, and not clearing your house and grounds of it. These are different things.

Your skeet gun, or a coach gun is enough to keep them from coming through the bedroom door, even in the hands of my wife, who, while she knows how to shoot, is not a gun person. But for checking out the noise downstairs, or out back, that double is not the best available choice, despite what our esteemed Vice President may think, and say...

The coach gun is simple. its at its simplest with two triggers, and if it has hammers, its only slightly more complex. It does not have the "menacing? appearance of a "combat" gun. It does not have a feeding cycle that can screw up, and it can be stored loaded and essentially "at rest".

The down side, of course, is that it only holds two shells. If you have someone in your household that won't know "by instinct" where the safety is, where the action release button is, doesn't know that you can short shuck a pump, or a semi, doesn't know how to clear a stoppage, AND won't know (or remember) these things under extreme stress, a simple gun, even if only two shots might be worth considering. Two is better than one, or none, after all.

No, this doesn't apply to everyone. It doesn't apply to most of us, but for some of us, it's worth considering.

ALSO, something to consider, is that if you have more than one gun, which one you are "used to". Because when you are under extreme stress (or maybe just a little) one tends to operate on "autopilot". This is why training, and proper practice are so heavily emphasized.

I once missed a bird (low stress but some rush) only because the gun I had in my hands at the time had the safety in a different place than the one I was used to. I can only imagine how much worse the stress would be in a defense situation.

And, one more thing for consideration, if you ever do need to use the gun for "serious social work", the police are going to take it. It's evidence. And they are going to keep it, until ALL the possible legal issues are resolved. AND they may not keep it in the best of condition while this happens. Depending on the situation, some places this may mean months, possibly even longer.

A "cheap" coach gun, which might be lost to the evidence locker for who knows how long is less of a loss than a high(er) dollar gun. Again, not a huge thing for most of us, but something to take into consideration.

If you know how to use a pump or semi, its ammo capacity certainly makes it a better choice than a double barrel for nearly everything. Also, the fact that a double does only hold two shots tends to discourage spray and pray or recon by fire (something a regular citizen has no business doing, anyway). In other words, KNOWING you've only got two shots means you'll probably save them for when they are most needed.

Just my $.02 and worth what you paid for it.

[Dreaming100Straight]

I think we got a lot for $.02 and now I see additional merits in the simple coach gun.