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Old November 27, 2016, 05:52 PM   #51
JeepHammer
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How it becomes 'Not Worth It' is when you consider your time or the cost of progressive press and/or auto drive to reduce that time, but increase cost.
AND,
When you crank out ammo with the cheapest components on the market you get cheap ammo you wound a BUNCH of time up in...

At around $75 an hour for shop time, missed production,
It's most certainly not worth giving away $75, then spending time producing crap blasting ammo...

I see the guys that can't thumb rounds out of a mag, or mags, they just click them off from the hip. Probably better they buy/build crap ammo since they don't hit anything anyway throwing 55 grain rounds through a 1:7" barrel, having to move a human torso target in to 25 yards to hit anything...

If you AIM every shot, the ammo consumption goes down a BUNCH,
And if you carefully aim every shot you won't burn through a thousand rounds a a day...

Don't know what kind of shooting everyone does, but I don't do the 'Hollywood' crap, sticking to fundamentals and keeping my skills for shot placement rather than target saturation...
I built my own home range because of the 'Spray & Pray' shooting that has taken over the public ranges...
12"x12" wood cants hold up the overhead cover on the public range,, the first set or two rotted off in about 20 years, then the spray & pray crap started and they get shot to pieces every couple years...

I haven't had to change range marker or target posts in 13 years, and I don't have the posts or roof shot off my shelter house either, a constant problem at the public ranges.

It's up to you, but I can't buy Hornady A-max or V-max bullets for $25/1,000
And I won't use cheap bullets when I'm taking MY TIME to load accurate, premium rounds.
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Old November 27, 2016, 07:02 PM   #52
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Well thats the best part about reloading.
You can choose how you want to go.
If your only going to shoot a few hundred rounds a year.
You can buy the best components available.

I have a few guns like that. Only the best and only a few.
Depends what your after.

My 308 bolt gun gets different food than my 308 AR10.
Does not take long to go through 200 rounds and not even trying hard.
let alone blasting.
Even buying cheap Win white box will set you back $75 per trip.
I can do that same session for $20 and get better results.

And that does not even take into account my Son and his buddies ( with written OK from parents) Going through a couple coffee cans of 45 acp in the carbine.
Go price a coffee can full of 45 acp once. About 1000 rounds.
Even the cheap stuff is $20 a box. About $400 in ammo.
I can make em for about $100. Maybe less because I catch and recast my lead bullets. So I only pay for those once and shoot em for life.

It really does come down to how much you shoot. The more you shoot the more you save. The more you save the more you shoot. It always cost the same.
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Old November 27, 2016, 10:24 PM   #53
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I reloaded 500 today.

I got a deal on the bullets, 55g VMAX for around $.04 each.

By my reloading calc on my phone, I spent $74. I have 500 more to load next weekend
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Old November 27, 2016, 10:48 PM   #54
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Jeep hammer do you pay someone to grocery shop for you , take your kids to school or read you the paper . If you were to pay someone $25hr to do those things you would be saving 50hr right . Sounds like a great way to save some money haha . If you're going to claim you "must" consider your time in the cost . You "must" apply that same logic to EVERYTHING you do . IMHO It's a dishonest argument to only apply the cost of your time in only some ways . Either every second of your time is worth a price and you validate every second OR you in fact do have some FREE time that can be used for what ever you choose and it does not cost you anything . Like reading the paper or watching the ball game . Hw about instead of watching that tv show you reload for an hour ? I don't see how anyone can say that cost you any money or time for that matter . The time was already relegated to something that most anyone would never put a cost to .
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Old November 27, 2016, 10:53 PM   #55
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COZ, you ARE a grunt! Not afraid of working!
I didn't plant bullets, so I ain't diggin bullets!

It took me several years (had them to spare back then)...
But I can match or exceed any of the factory 'Premium' ammo out there, provided the primer or powder makers don't screw me.

My 'Range' ammo is my culled components from premium ammo.
Bullets over/under weight or over/under diameter, cases that have seen better days, but are perfectly serviceable, etc.
Might only be neck dents or scratches that get cases culled...

I load for 'Perfection' (aim high!), range ammo is what didn't make the highest mark.

I don't load a lot of FMJ or any 'Generic' rounds, mine are for long range varmint control, so it's usually hollow points, or increasingly ballistic tips.
I shoot 50 to 100 rounds at varmints a week, we are currently overrun with coys, ferral cats, and other vermin, and I live smack in the middle of 46 acres with sight lines in all directions, my closest neighbor is 9/10 mile away.
Since I live in a bend of a river, bordering 2,600 acres of state game preserve, everything moving along the river crosses my land...
I try to see the varmits don't make it.

The gun rack by the shop door isn't for looks.
Deer, bobcats, foxes that aren't mangy get a pass,
House cats, coys, pack running ferral dogs pass at there own peril.

When I target shoot, it's not at 25 yard, 2 foot targets,
I have 600 yards marked off, and I reach out as far as I can with any particular rifle...
When you try to put 100 rounds through an 8" bullseye target, you can't tell if you are hitting anything or not,
So it's often 10 round groups, then walk 400 or 600 yards to change the target.
Puts excersize in your rifle practice, gets that heart rate up a little so you keep in practice of controlling your heart rate & breathing.
You know, the basics that keep you hitting your intended target...
At my age/physical condition, a 1,200 yard round trip is like running 2 miles when I was younger! (Then shooting).

I'll admit to being OCD,
I will spend time cutting, polishing chambers to the Nth Degree, spending time working up loads for almost every rifle I own, having die sets for nearly every rifle I own dedicated to that one rifle...
With the exception of ARs in .223, those all get SAAMI chambers and SAAMI ammo. The whole interchangeability thing going on there...

One thing I think keeps me sharp is using different rifles,
.218 Bee today, .223 tomorrow, .308 the next day.
Helps me keep my head in the game remembering the ballistics for each one.
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Old November 27, 2016, 11:02 PM   #56
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I shot 108 cats in one day when we first moved out here!
Not a rabbit or squirrel within a mile of me.
13 years later, rabbits, game birds, squirrels, our chickens don't disappear...
In the first couple years, I had to use a backhoe to bury the carcasses they piled up so fast I couldn't burn them fast enough.

Now they are gone or learned to keep a VERY wide berth...
My 'Average' shot has gone from 50 yards to about 300 yards.

I don't need 'blasting' ammo, I need something that will hit a ferral house cat at 300 yards.
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Old November 28, 2016, 12:26 AM   #57
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Sounds to me like you could have used a Chinese restaurant or two around your town when you first moved there. The feral cats would have been taken out either way...but you had fun doing it. Are the song birds back as well? Those feral cats are notorious bird killers.
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Old November 28, 2016, 12:15 PM   #58
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Quote:
COZ, you ARE a grunt! Not afraid of working!
I didn't plant bullets, so I ain't diggin bullets!
Oh no, dont need to work hard if you plan in advance.



Just shoot it until the target board is shot out.



When you change the target board. Just shovel out a bunch through the hole.
Replace the board.


Shovel it back into the trap though a screen.



Melt, cast, lube and shoot em again.



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Last edited by A pause for the COZ; November 28, 2016 at 12:27 PM.
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Old November 28, 2016, 12:32 PM   #59
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That last post veered t words being off topic. So to drag it back.
Here is how it factors to reloading 223.

I can reload and recapture projectiles to reload 223 at just a fraction of even buying steel ammo and get better results.

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Old November 29, 2016, 06:56 AM   #60
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I see a bunch of 'About a MOA' written...
First off, it's either under MOA or it's Over MOA CONSISTATLY.
There isn't an 'About' to it...

I have not seen ANY blasting ammo that will shoot under a MOA in any rifle. Period.
And I have been doing this a very long time.

*IF* you shoot 1 MOA to 1-1/2 MOA, it's a 1-1/2 MOA rifle.
ONE good group once in a while isn't your average.

*IF* you don't keep track & average groups, how in the world do you know when you are making progress? (The answer is, you can't)

And after about 30 years of the big claims, then getting to the range and seeing poor groups... Same thing every time, excuses!

And to the guy asking if I grocery shopped,
I grow most of my own food, home can, get clean livestock from the neighbors.
I know what's in 'Food' (using the term loosely) at the store and I avoid it.
My health is worth my time, making ammo that shoots all around a target isn't, so I don't make crap ammo...

Last edited by JeepHammer; November 29, 2016 at 10:06 AM.
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Old November 29, 2016, 11:48 AM   #61
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[QUOTE
And to the guy asking if I grocery shopped,][/QUOTE]

Yeah I think that's the same guy that says his blasting ammo shoots "about" moa lol . As to the quote I asked if you try to save money buy paying someone to do it for you . The analogy works with anything one does . Do you pay someone to go to your neighbors to pick up that live stock that way you save the money it would cost you to waste your time going there . The analogy's are truly endless , do you account for and put a price on every second of your day . If you don't why are you saying others should ( apply a cost to there "free" time ) when you don't ?

When I say about it is making the point that my "blasting" reloads consistently shoot twice as good as any factory "blasting" ammo . We all know anything "around" 2 moa for factory "blasting" ammo is pretty good . Well mine are "around" 1moa . FWIW you are correct in saying it's blasting ammo and as such I rarely shoot it for groups . The moa calculation came during load development where the initial five shot group was sub moa and the subsequent 10 shot confirmation group was 1.2 moa . A 20 shot group would likely be 1.5+a moa group and a 50 shot group would likely be 2.5+ moa etc etc . So I have no problem saying this specific load shoots about moa .

Please don't take all this personally or as an attack on you . I'm just having a friendly conversation here . I do respect your knowledge here at TFL but don't agree with these one or two things
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Old November 29, 2016, 06:42 PM   #62
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Statistically, the larger the number of shots in the group, the more opportunities you give the less probable POI's out at the tails of the bell curve to show up. For that reason, average size always grows with the number of shots in the group.

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Old November 29, 2016, 07:37 PM   #63
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UN , that was my very point .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
The moa calculation came during load development where the initial five shot group was sub moa and the subsequent 10 shot confirmation group was 1.2 moa . A 20 shot group would likely be 1.5+a moa group and a 50 shot group would likely be 2.5+ moa etc etc . So I have no problem saying this specific load shoots about moa
At what number of shots do you get to say that's what the load shoots . Some say 5 others say 10 while even others say 20+ . It's why I said about moa . The point was a general idea as to what I can load a $.20 round to do .

I could take it one step further and say . If a load shoots moa 99 times and one time 1.75 moa , That is a moa load . I understand for purposes of putting meat on the table or saving ones life I need to think of it as , 1.75 moa is all I should expect from that load but that IMO has to do with me and my ability and not the load it self .
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Old November 30, 2016, 05:27 AM   #64
JeepHammer
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COZ, I grow potatoes that way, don't know why a bullet trap made that way didn't occur to me...

MG, do what you want, it's your time & money.
My time & money is better spent on one ragged hole at 100 yds or house cat at 400 yards.
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Old November 30, 2016, 08:11 AM   #65
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Well, for me to answer that properly you'd have to define what "worth it" means to you. There are many benefits to reloading such as having more control over what you shoot in your gun, making unique loads, unavailable to the public, an increase in precision, a decrease in price (sometimes), it being a fun hobby, and higher availability of the specific ammo you are loading for, because if the stores don't have loaded cartridges in stock, they, or you may have bullets, primers and powder.

I am going to assume you mean "is it cheaper than factory ammo" based on your question.

Bulk bullets are $0.08 a piece, $0.11-$0.13 if not in bulk, powder will be about $0.09 per round, and mil spec primers are $0.04 a piece. This assumes you get your brass for free. If free brass is impossible for you to get add $0.05 per round, assuming you get 10 uses out of them. So the absolute cheapest you can load .223 for is about 20-25 cents per round.

Tula steel case ammo can be had for around $0.20 per round if in bulk, $0.23 if not in bulk. However, the cheapest brass cased ammo goes for $0.29-$0.35 per round. So apples to apples, you will save around $0.08 per round. And these are all plinking quality, not match. If you take the time to carefully measure each powder charge and watch your seating depth, you can make "semi match" ammo. Spend a bit more on some high quality bullets and you can have real match ammo. It becomes more cost effective when you take your time to make sure everything is precisely measured. Ammo factories charge extra for the extra time and quality control measures they have to take to make high quality match ammo, but it doesn't cost you anything other than time when you do it.

If you got through all that then you probably realize there are a lot of factors to consider. If you are just going to be plinking then reloading .223 may not be worth it for you. For me the unique loads and greater availability make it completely worth it, no matter what caliber. If you want to make unique loads, need to kill some time, and want to have greater ammo availability then I would say spend the $40 on a lee die set, experiment and have fun!
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Old November 30, 2016, 12:13 PM   #66
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Quote:
I see a bunch of 'About a MOA' written...
First off, it's either under MOA or it's Over MOA CONSISTATLY.
There isn't an 'About' to it...
Metal God answered this perfectly. I use the same formula bench rest guys compete at... 5 round groups. I call the rifle what 5 consecutive round groups will consistently measure at, but I also understand that if I shoot 10 rounds my .92 average moa rifle will probably put those 10 rounds into more like a 1.2moa group. As you have said, not just one 5 round group should measure .92 inches at 100 yards to be a 1moa rifle... but virtually every group fired. At least 9 out of 10.

Quote:
I have not seen ANY blasting ammo that will shoot under a MOA in any rifle. Period.
And I have been doing this a very long time.
I have been doing this a very long time as well. Period. And it depends on what you call "blasting ammo." I reload what I consider my "blasting ammo" with bulk hornady spire points, and can come out to around 20 cents a round. That's cheap shooting, but it will in fact shoot an honest 1 moa. Period. Not very much under that, as I am hindered from achieving 1/2moa or better by the fact that I am loading bulk projectiles to save money. For what I use my AR for, 1 moa is plenty good enough. I have several other rifles capable of less than 1/2 moa groups if I'm doing nothing but trying to make a tiny group at long range (much more than 100 yards).

To your last point, I certainly understand your argument about time and money. I spend a considerable amount of time making my "blasting ammo" as I inspect every piece of brass, trim every case, measure every powder charge by both weight and volume, and add a considerable number of steps for quality control. I enjoy it, is a hobby. But I understand someone who does not have time to sink a couple of hours into turning out 100 rounds of .223 ammo when you're really only saving about 15 cents per round.
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