Non adjustable sight adjustment

1972RedNeck · January 3, 2024, 10:47 PM

My astigmatic eyes seem to work best with the long notch through the top of revolvers with non adjustable sights. Just picked up a Smith 65-6 and it is no exception.

Only problem is, at 25 yards, it shoots 2" left.

Any way to adjust non adjustable sights? No big deal if not, but wouldn't mind getting it perfect if possible...

ballardw · January 3, 2024, 11:19 PM

Horizontal adjust could be done by changing width of the sight blade such as adding material (something temporary like tape layers for tests) to the side of the blade opposite the direction movement is desired.

Once you have the new width needed then a more permanent material could be added to duplicate.

44caliberkid · January 4, 2024, 09:09 AM

Or remove material from the right side of the notch. First I would have some other shooters try it and see if they get the same result.

Bob Wright · January 4, 2024, 10:10 AM

There is no such thing as "non-adjustable sights."

With files, pliers, or torches, ANY sight can be adjusted! Just a matter of how far you want to go.

Bob Wright

ballardw · January 4, 2024, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44caliberkid

Or remove material from the right side of the notch. First I would have some other shooters try it and see if they get the same result.

As my eyes get older I tend to think "bigger is better" as hard enough seeing them as is...

**44 AMP** · January 4, 2024, 03:56 PM

Quote:

There is no such thing as "non-adjustable sights."

Fixed sights are not adjustable. However, they can be altered, which will "adjust" the point of aim to the point of impact, when done correctly.

The down side is that such alteration is essentially permanent (absent metal work to return the sight to factory dimensions) and the sight picture will be "on" for one load, at one distance, and possibly for only one person.

Bill DeShivs · January 4, 2024, 04:09 PM

You can adjust the point of impact by striking the gun in the proper place with a non-marring mallet.
Whack it and shoot. Whack it again if necessary.
Remove the cylinder before doing this-so you don't hit it.

**44 AMP** · January 5, 2024, 01:21 AM

Of course everyone has the right to do as they see fit with their property, and there's no reason not to adjust (alter) the gun to shoot where you look, and plenty of reasons to do just that. Personally, I use "kentucky windage" and just learn the correct amount to hold off when fixed sights aren't spot on for me. And I look for different load combinations that will shoot where the sights and where I am looking line up. Filing on the sights or bending things is a last resort for me, and one I have never really needed to do.

However, one of my minor worries, when looking at the purchase of used fixed sight guns is if a previous owner "adjusted" the sights to shoot for them, in such a way it will be way off for me.

While there are some generalities that run pretty constant, different people look through the sights differently, and can have different points of impact with exactly the same sight picture.

Sarge · January 5, 2024, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Wright

There is no such thing as "non-adjustable sights."

With files, pliers, or torches, ANY sight can be adjusted! Just a matter of how far you want to go.

Bob Wright

I'm with Bob on this one.

Bob Wright · January 5, 2024, 10:42 AM

As to "Kentucky windage", aiming at some other point than my intended target is just not intuitive to me. My natural instinct is to aim at what I'm intending to hit.

Note that with this revolver, my bullets were at least 3 1/2" low at 7 1/2 yards.

I did use a file to get some semblence of accuracy out of this little gun. The photo shows how many strokes with a file were required to bring the gun to taw.

The sights on this gun, a .38 Special Uberti Open Top from Cimarron were just impossible for me and after the fun wore off, I sold the gun off.

Bob Wright

44caliberkid · January 5, 2024, 11:57 AM

Most of my sight work has been on Italian replica Colt revolvers, the majority cap n ball. If I make a mistake, I haven’t ruined an expensive gun. For windage changes I just widen the notch in the hammer in the appropriate direction. Elevation can be a little more creative. Shooting low is an easy fix, just file the front sight till it’s dead on. Most of them shoot high because the arbor is too short. Fitting that will usually fix the problem and there are many ways to do that from complex (weld material to the end of the arbor, then file to fit) to doing the same thing with washers or JB Weld. However, I’ve still had a few that hit high and I made new front sights. I used a piece of brass rod for an 1851 Navy. Screwed it into the stock hole and filed to correct elevation. I made another front sight for an 1861 Navy from a silver dime. I cut a cresent shaped piece off of it, leaving a nub in the bottom middle that screwed into the stock sight hole. It looked great and I didn’t have to file it, my original guestimate was right on.
I have made factory front sight taller using JB Weld. My early production, Israel made, Desert Eagle being an example. I removed the finish from the top edge of the sight, wrapped it with tape, leaving the top open, and packed in about an 1/8 of an inch JB Weld. When it cured, I removed the tape, cleaned up the sides and reshaped the top with a fine sanding block, then colored it with a black Sharpie. Now it hits dead center on a 50 yard bullseye instead of a foot high.

**44 AMP** · January 5, 2024, 03:26 PM

Quote:

As to "Kentucky windage", aiming at some other point than my intended target is just not intuitive to me. My natural instinct is to aim at what I'm intending to hit.

I understand that, but what do you do when your intended target isn't at the range you filed the sights to zero at? Or, when for some reason you aren't shooting the load you zeroed the gun with?? What other option is there besides "holding off"?

OK, not everyone does that, but some of us do.

Bob Wright · January 5, 2024, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

I understand that, but what do you do when your intended target isn't at the range you filed the sights to zero at? Or, when for some reason you aren't shooting the load you zeroed the gun with?? What other option is there besides "holding off"?

OK, not everyone does that, but some of us do.

Most of my revolvers are sigted in at 25 yards, to hit center of a 6" dia. (appx.) bullseye, using a six o'clock hold. This has stood me in good stead out to ranges approcahing 100 yards. But my fixed sight revolvers are regulated to one load, or loads of similar performance. These primarily for casual shooting/plinking. Whenever I'm using a variety of ammnition, you can be sure my guns have adjustable sights.

Webleymkv · January 6, 2024, 09:16 AM

Before you go altering the sights on your revolver, have you tried more than one type of ammunition? Sometimes when changing ammunition you will have a shift in the point of impact and while elevation is usually affected most, windage isn't necessarily immune to it. I would venture to guess that your M65 was probably zeroed at the factory with 158 gr .357 Magnum ammunition (that's what my M13 shoots to POA with). If you're shooting.38 Special ammo or .357 Magnum with a different bullet weight, that may be part of the problem.

**44 AMP** · January 6, 2024, 09:23 PM

While rare, I have seen extreme examples of fixed sights being "on" and drastically "off" with different ammo, at the same range.

Some years back, a friend showed up with his latest, a Colt SAA clone in .357 Mag. I no longer remember what brand it was, but it was nicely finished.

The gun was spot on at about 20yds with regular 158gr .38 Specials. There were four shooters that day and the results we all had were identical. Spot on with .38s and a foot low and a foot left with .357 ammo. Very consistent, but way off.

Certainly try different ammo, try every different thing you can get ahold of, BEFORE you make a permanent alteration to your gun's sights.

Try different shooters, too. Your gun might be "off" simply because of the way you sight it. It's not impossible.

Sarge · January 6, 2024, 11:30 PM

I am quite happy to work within a narrow range of bullet weight to enjoy the benefits of clean lines and a zero that can weather hard knocks and remain constant.

Hawg · January 7, 2024, 07:15 AM

I grew up with fixed sights. It doesn't bother me a bit to use Kentucky Windage. I got so used to it I don't even adjust adjustable sights.

**44 AMP** · January 7, 2024, 04:26 PM

I almost never adjust my adjustable sights, after zeroing them with the load I intend to use as my primary.

When shooting other bullet weights and speeds, I generally don't touch the sights and simply learn the amount to hold off, to be on target.

IF I decide to change the primary load I use, THEN I adjust the sights.

I really, REALLY prefer to have that option, even if I don't use it often.

I'm neither a cop, nor a gunfighter, nor any longer a soldier, so their concerns rarely intersect with mine. "Clean lines" is a matter of opinion, and any of my guns taking "hard knocks" is an extremely low order possibility.

I have some fixed sight guns, but if I can get essentially the same thing with adjustable sights, that's what I do.

CajunBass · January 10, 2024, 10:28 AM

I'm sort of like Bob above, except that I don't even bother to adjust the sights to a load. If I do anything to them, I just screw them to "neutral" and treat them as if they were fixed.

SIGSHR · January 12, 2024, 02:10 PM

Skeeter Skelton wrote that fixed sight handguns usually shot to the left for him.
Charlie Askins wrote that he made a tool to adjust for windage on the Colt New Services issued to the Border Patrol in the 1930s, he gave no details.
I would look into getting a spare barrel, make the adjustments on that.

radom · January 13, 2024, 02:23 AM

Fixed sight guns where "adjusted" at the factory by being stuck on a block off wood barrel up and whacked with a lead weight. and us just wood block and stand on it.

Bob Wright · January 13, 2024, 11:36 AM

I'll respond to some of the "what ifs" regarding my sighting in of fixed sight revolvers. First of all, I have only a couple of fixed sight guns, and these see only casual use.

The question came up about switching ammunition/loads. My fixed sight revolvers are fed a pretty steady diet of one ammunition variety. And, over time, I've developed a number of loads that all perform nearly identical to each oher. This in case there is a shortage of preferred powder or bullet combinations. So even if I have to switch ammunition, it will still have the same point of impact.

Not at the same range I have sighted in for? (Pardon the poor English) I have sighted in to bring my shots on line, left or right, and dead on for elevation. Slight differences in range won't affect the impact enough to matter. This is usually no more than an inch above or below my aiming point, not enough to cause a miss.

But I don't expect pinpoint accuracy from fixed sighted guns. When it is critical, I go to a Super Blackhawk or Blackhawk. As I said, they are sighted to hit center of a 6" (appx) dia. circle at 25 yards using s 6:00 o'clock hold. So sighted, I've made head shots on ground hogs at ranges out to just over 100 yards.

Bob Wright

And.................I had an early Uberti Cattleman, ca. 1975, imported by Iver Johnson. To hit a gallon milk jug at some fifty feet or so, estimated, I had to aim at the big toe of my right (Wright?) foot. Not a very pleasant feeling with a .44 Magnum.

**Aguila Blanca** · January 13, 2024, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Wright

Not at the same range I have sighted in for? (Pardon the poor English) I have sighted in to bring my shots on line, left or right, and dead on for elevation. Slight differences in range won't affect the impact enough to matter. This is usually no more than an inch above or below my aiming point, not enough to cause a miss.

But in post #13 you wrote that your guns are regulated to hit the center of a 6" bullseye with a 6:00 o'clock hold at 25 yards. So unless you are shooting at a 6" bullseye at 25 yards, your sight picture is not "dead on," and you are obviously not shooting POI = POA. You are set up to hit 3 inches above point-of-aim at 25 yards. Change to a 3-inch bullseye, and if you use the same 6:00 o'clock point of aim now your group will be clustered right around the 12:00 o'clock top edge of the bullseye.

Sarge · January 13, 2024, 07:34 PM

I regulate mine for 50 yards, dead center on top of the front sight. And there's more than one ways to skin that cat. A shortened Uberti 44 mag.

https://www.thesixgunjournal.net/wp-...310_135213.jpg

https://www.thesixgunjournal.net/wp-...319_102929.jpg

Skinner Patridge front sight, fitted and contoured
https://www.thesixgunjournal.net/wp-...510_081827.jpg

The final zero couldn't have worked out better. Up close I shot a `Do-All spinner target. The top half is 2 7/8" and the bottom is 4 1/2"; they were easy at 10 and 17 paces respectively. When I didn't flub the press, I hit 6" knock-down plates at 50 yards by holding six o'clock on them. My 100 yard pistol target is an 18" square plate, hanging by one corner like a diamond and I shot in the middle of it holding on the top third. This was all with the Lyman 429667/7.5 W231 reload at 860 fps.

Of course that could all be accomplished with a set of adjustable sights. As I have mentioned, I prefer fixed and I don't mind doing a little work to zero them.

Bob Wright · January 14, 2024, 02:41 PM

When I wrote that I was referring to my guns with adjustable sights, not my fixd sight guns.

Bob Wright

January 3, 2024, 11:19 PM	#2
ballardw Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 1,413	Horizontal adjust could be done by changing width of the sight blade such as adding material (something temporary like tape layers for tests) to the side of the blade opposite the direction movement is desired. Once you have the new width needed then a more permanent material could be added to duplicate. __________________ -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ All data is flawed, some just less so.

January 4, 2024, 10:10 AM	#4
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	There is no such thing as "non-adjustable sights." With files, pliers, or torches, ANY sight can be adjusted! Just a matter of how far you want to go. Bob Wright __________________ Time spent at the reloading bench is an investment in contentment.

January 4, 2024, 04:09 PM	#7
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,987	You can adjust the point of impact by striking the gun in the proper place with a non-marring mallet. Whack it and shoot. Whack it again if necessary. Remove the cylinder before doing this-so you don't hit it. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

January 5, 2024, 01:21 AM	#8
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,860	Of course everyone has the right to do as they see fit with their property, and there's no reason not to adjust (alter) the gun to shoot where you look, and plenty of reasons to do just that. Personally, I use "kentucky windage" and just learn the correct amount to hold off when fixed sights aren't spot on for me. And I look for different load combinations that will shoot where the sights and where I am looking line up. Filing on the sights or bending things is a last resort for me, and one I have never really needed to do. However, one of my minor worries, when looking at the purchase of used fixed sight guns is if a previous owner "adjusted" the sights to shoot for them, in such a way it will be way off for me. While there are some generalities that run pretty constant, different people look through the sights differently, and can have different points of impact with exactly the same sight picture. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 5, 2024, 10:42 AM	#10
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	As to "Kentucky windage", aiming at some other point than my intended target is just not intuitive to me. My natural instinct is to aim at what I'm intending to hit. Note that with this revolver, my bullets were at least 3 1/2" low at 7 1/2 yards. I did use a file to get some semblence of accuracy out of this little gun. The photo shows how many strokes with a file were required to bring the gun to taw. The sights on this gun, a .38 Special Uberti Open Top from Cimarron were just impossible for me and after the fun wore off, I sold the gun off. Bob Wright __________________ Time spent at the reloading bench is an investment in contentment.

January 3, 2024, 10:47 PM	#1
1972RedNeck Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2015 Posts: 203	Non adjustable sight adjustment My astigmatic eyes seem to work best with the long notch through the top of revolvers with non adjustable sights. Just picked up a Smith 65-6 and it is no exception. Only problem is, at 25 yards, it shoots 2" left. Any way to adjust non adjustable sights? No big deal if not, but wouldn't mind getting it perfect if possible...

January 4, 2024, 09:09 AM	#3
44caliberkid Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2017 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,104	Or remove material from the right side of the notch. First I would have some other shooters try it and see if they get the same result.

January 5, 2024, 11:57 AM	#11
44caliberkid Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2017 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,104	Most of my sight work has been on Italian replica Colt revolvers, the majority cap n ball. If I make a mistake, I haven’t ruined an expensive gun. For windage changes I just widen the notch in the hammer in the appropriate direction. Elevation can be a little more creative. Shooting low is an easy fix, just file the front sight till it’s dead on. Most of them shoot high because the arbor is too short. Fitting that will usually fix the problem and there are many ways to do that from complex (weld material to the end of the arbor, then file to fit) to doing the same thing with washers or JB Weld. However, I’ve still had a few that hit high and I made new front sights. I used a piece of brass rod for an 1851 Navy. Screwed it into the stock hole and filed to correct elevation. I made another front sight for an 1861 Navy from a silver dime. I cut a cresent shaped piece off of it, leaving a nub in the bottom middle that screwed into the stock sight hole. It looked great and I didn’t have to file it, my original guestimate was right on. I have made factory front sight taller using JB Weld. My early production, Israel made, Desert Eagle being an example. I removed the finish from the top edge of the sight, wrapped it with tape, leaving the top open, and packed in about an 1/8 of an inch JB Weld. When it cured, I removed the tape, cleaned up the sides and reshaped the top with a fine sanding block, then colored it with a black Sharpie. Now it hits dead center on a 50 yard bullseye instead of a foot high.

January 6, 2024, 09:16 AM	#14
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	Before you go altering the sights on your revolver, have you tried more than one type of ammunition? Sometimes when changing ammunition you will have a shift in the point of impact and while elevation is usually affected most, windage isn't necessarily immune to it. I would venture to guess that your M65 was probably zeroed at the factory with 158 gr .357 Magnum ammunition (that's what my M13 shoots to POA with). If you're shooting.38 Special ammo or .357 Magnum with a different bullet weight, that may be part of the problem.

January 6, 2024, 09:23 PM	#15
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,860	While rare, I have seen extreme examples of fixed sights being "on" and drastically "off" with different ammo, at the same range. Some years back, a friend showed up with his latest, a Colt SAA clone in .357 Mag. I no longer remember what brand it was, but it was nicely finished. The gun was spot on at about 20yds with regular 158gr .38 Specials. There were four shooters that day and the results we all had were identical. Spot on with .38s and a foot low and a foot left with .357 ammo. Very consistent, but way off. Certainly try different ammo, try every different thing you can get ahold of, BEFORE you make a permanent alteration to your gun's sights. Try different shooters, too. Your gun might be "off" simply because of the way you sight it. It's not impossible. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 6, 2024, 11:30 PM	#16
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	I am quite happy to work within a narrow range of bullet weight to enjoy the benefits of clean lines and a zero that can weather hard knocks and remain constant. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

January 7, 2024, 07:15 AM	#17
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	I grew up with fixed sights. It doesn't bother me a bit to use Kentucky Windage. I got so used to it I don't even adjust adjustable sights.

January 7, 2024, 04:26 PM	#18
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,860	I almost never adjust my adjustable sights, after zeroing them with the load I intend to use as my primary. When shooting other bullet weights and speeds, I generally don't touch the sights and simply learn the amount to hold off, to be on target. IF I decide to change the primary load I use, THEN I adjust the sights. I really, REALLY prefer to have that option, even if I don't use it often. I'm neither a cop, nor a gunfighter, nor any longer a soldier, so their concerns rarely intersect with mine. "Clean lines" is a matter of opinion, and any of my guns taking "hard knocks" is an extremely low order possibility. I have some fixed sight guns, but if I can get essentially the same thing with adjustable sights, that's what I do. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 10, 2024, 10:28 AM	#19
CajunBass Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2005 Location: North Chesterfield, Virginia Posts: 4,768	I'm sort of like Bob above, except that I don't even bother to adjust the sights to a load. If I do anything to them, I just screw them to "neutral" and treat them as if they were fixed. __________________ For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 (NKJV)

January 12, 2024, 02:10 PM	#20
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	Skeeter Skelton wrote that fixed sight handguns usually shot to the left for him. Charlie Askins wrote that he made a tool to adjust for windage on the Colt New Services issued to the Border Patrol in the 1930s, he gave no details. I would look into getting a spare barrel, make the adjustments on that.

January 13, 2024, 02:23 AM	#21
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,358	Fixed sight guns where "adjusted" at the factory by being stuck on a block off wood barrel up and whacked with a lead weight. and us just wood block and stand on it.

January 13, 2024, 11:36 AM	#22
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	I'll respond to some of the "what ifs" regarding my sighting in of fixed sight revolvers. First of all, I have only a couple of fixed sight guns, and these see only casual use. The question came up about switching ammunition/loads. My fixed sight revolvers are fed a pretty steady diet of one ammunition variety. And, over time, I've developed a number of loads that all perform nearly identical to each oher. This in case there is a shortage of preferred powder or bullet combinations. So even if I have to switch ammunition, it will still have the same point of impact. Not at the same range I have sighted in for? (Pardon the poor English) I have sighted in to bring my shots on line, left or right, and dead on for elevation. Slight differences in range won't affect the impact enough to matter. This is usually no more than an inch above or below my aiming point, not enough to cause a miss. But I don't expect pinpoint accuracy from fixed sighted guns. When it is critical, I go to a Super Blackhawk or Blackhawk. As I said, they are sighted to hit center of a 6" (appx) dia. circle at 25 yards using s 6:00 o'clock hold. So sighted, I've made head shots on ground hogs at ranges out to just over 100 yards. Bob Wright And.................I had an early Uberti Cattleman, ca. 1975, imported by Iver Johnson. To hit a gallon milk jug at some fifty feet or so, estimated, I had to aim at the big toe of my right (Wright?) foot. Not a very pleasant feeling with a .44 Magnum. __________________ Time spent at the reloading bench is an investment in contentment.

January 13, 2024, 07:34 PM	#24
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	I regulate mine for 50 yards, dead center on top of the front sight. And there's more than one ways to skin that cat. A shortened Uberti 44 mag. https://www.thesixgunjournal.net/wp-...310_135213.jpg https://www.thesixgunjournal.net/wp-...319_102929.jpg Skinner Patridge front sight, fitted and contoured https://www.thesixgunjournal.net/wp-...510_081827.jpg The final zero couldn't have worked out better. Up close I shot a `Do-All spinner target. The top half is 2 7/8" and the bottom is 4 1/2"; they were easy at 10 and 17 paces respectively. When I didn't flub the press, I hit 6" knock-down plates at 50 yards by holding six o'clock on them. My 100 yard pistol target is an 18" square plate, hanging by one corner like a diamond and I shot in the middle of it holding on the top third. This was all with the Lyman 429667/7.5 W231 reload at 860 fps. Of course that could all be accomplished with a set of adjustable sights. As I have mentioned, I prefer fixed and I don't mind doing a little work to zero them. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

January 14, 2024, 02:41 PM	#25
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	When I wrote that I was referring to my guns with adjustable sights, not my fixd sight guns. Bob Wright __________________ Time spent at the reloading bench is an investment in contentment.