Did you survive the 21 ft test?

[hsim]

Heres a little test. There has been a lot of discussion on another thread about the 21 ft rule.

This exercise was shown to me by my instructor some 10 years ago.

You need a friend to help out, any physical condition, just your average Joe/Jane.

Now, find somewhere where you have some room. Standing back to back with your friend. Have his/her right heel, touching your left heel and have them place their right hand on your left shoulder. You are standing relaxed, hands at you side.

Now, before you start, clear you weapon and holster. When they are ready, have them run as fast as possible away from you. (try to have them do this without giggling like a little girl, it's very distracting ) Now the second you feel their hand leave your should, you draw and fire (empty gun of cause). You can even draw and fire 'cowboy' style, i.e. close retention. As soon as your partner hears the snap, stop, and I do mean stop (I'll come back to this in a second). Now measure from your back heel to your partner's back heel. What is that distance?

If it's 21 ft or greater, you've just been cut multiple times, possible before you've had a chance to draw.

Now repeat the above exercise, but this time from low ready, two hand hold. Raise the gun to eye level (to simulate aimed fire) the instant you feel their hand leave your shoulder, and double tap, now, what's the results? I bet you'd be surprised.

The reason I have them stop 'dead in their tracks' is to illustrate best case scenario. In real life bullets, no matter the caliber, will stop someone dead in their tracks. In all likely hood their kinetic energy will carry them forward another 6-12 ft before they realize they've been shot. This is still enough to cut you badly.

[Double Naught Spy]

Wow, your friend took a simple drill and then made it hugely difficult. A running person can't just stop once s/he hears the click of the hammer fall. I that person can, they aren't moving very fast.

Try this. Start 21 feet apart and have your friend charge you. He is carrying a rubber knife or something fairly safe like a piece of cardboard shaped like a knife. You have either an airsoft gun or Red Gun. Have him charge you. You draw either from a concealed holster (real life concealed carry) or a retention holster (police version). You can either stand still (generally stupid, but could be necessary or only option) or move/retreat. Both are possible scenarios options. When the charge starts, you draw.

We found that with moving/retreating, the person with the gun often managed to get off a shot or multiple shots, although that did not mean he didn't get cut. A lot of the shots were at very close range and even a shot up bad guy, moving forward solely on momentum but alive, could still stab or slash. The knife needed to be repaired (cardboard) several times because of it being used to stab and slash). If the person with the gun is retreating, the best option for the person with the knife, if choosing to pursue the attack, is a slash motion since the success rate for stabbing goes way down as the intended stabbee moves out of stabable position but is still within the wide arc of slashing.

Standing still, the person with the knife has a much better chance of winning outright or with shots to the legs.

Note that simple mistakes on the part of the gun person do matter, such as getting fouled in the concealment garment during the draw, not reacting soon enough to the threat, etc. And then, there is actually hitting the target. Even good shooters can miss when attempting to fire from a retention position, even at a target closing on them.

[hsim]

Wow, your friend took a simple drill and then made it hugely difficult.

I am sorry DNS, but other then the use of propers, I really don't see how the two experiments are wildly different.

A running person can't just stop once s/he hears the click of the hammer fall. I that person can, they aren't moving very fast.

The reason I have them stop 'dead in their tracks' is to illustrate best case scenario. In real life bullets, no matter the caliber, will stop someone dead in their tracks. In all likely hood their kinetic energy will carry them forward another 6-12 ft before they realize they've been shot. This is still enough to cut you badly.

I though I had convey that point, forgive me if I didn't explain myself correctly.

Everyone has a different way of conveying the same message, and if I am not mistaken, we are both trying to convey that message.

Unless you take some other action, other then simply draw and firing at someone from 21ft, you will get hurt. Even if you do take other actions, it is in all likely hood that they will still get to you.

Since I am simply a student and not a master, I was only conveying what I had been taught. As always, there are some good masters and others not so, we only learn from sources available to us at the time.

Yours Respectfully

[dctag]

If you want to get good at the Tueller drill you should do a lot of dry firing. If you work at it you should be able to consistently hit it below 1.5 seconds. From a non concealed gun you should be hitting in the low 1's or sub 1-second. From concealment 1.5 is a good goal to work towards.

-David

[Skyguy]

Couldn't help but respond to this one. :))

We use the 21ft-30ft drill as an example of how 9 out of 10 times the knife guy will get to the gun guy. If nothing else there'll be mutual wounding or mutual death.

I'm fairly well accomplished at HTH and in a real or surprise 5ft to 21ft knife situation....50/50 is about it.
Your best bet is avoidance by running, dodging, whatever. Don't just stand there!

Problem is that many uninitiated 'instructors' fail to convey the fact that most 'motivated' people don't drop in their tracks when shot even multiple times with a handgun.
.

[Shaun]

not 21 feet but a good demo....
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...56&q=gun+knife

[riverkeeper]

Please comment on this.

One of the responses we practice related to Tueller is to suddenly at the last split second Jump to your stong side to gain 1-2 seconds as the attacker goes by and has to turn back to continue the attack slower less forcefully. Like a quarterback stepping up or out to duck the rush.

Strong side to protect the weapon arm and to keep it further away during subsequent attacks.

[stephen426]

I think that video is a good example of why it is important to balance firearm training with some martial arts/hand to hand training. If someone rushed me like that, I think my immediate reaction would be to deliver a nice swift side kick to his chest. While I might get my leg cut up, it is still better than getting my throat slashed while drawing my weapon. If I land a good shot, that will give me plenty of time to grab my weapon and end the situation. Hopefully those years of TKD lessons haven't escaped my grey matter. While going unanarmed against a knife wielding attacker is not an ideal situation, I think the video proves that there is no time to draw and fire a weapon if the attacker is close to you.

One other thing to consider is that the people in that video knew an attack was going to take place. While I hope most of use will have good situational awareness, we can get that "this can't really be happening" reaction which will slow us down even more. Besides, most of us carry concealed and drawing from concealed is slower than from a open holster. Oh well, I hope this never happens to any of us here.

[kymasabe]

The idea of drawing and dry-firing at my friend...even after clearing and checking and reclearing and rechecking and triple clearing and triple checking my weapon still sounds like a bad idea.

[Tim Burke]

It is. Do it with a red gun or an airsoft with appropriate safety gear.

[hsim]

The idea of drawing and dry-firing at my friend...even after clearing and checking and reclearing and rechecking and triple clearing and triple checking my weapon still sounds like a bad idea.

I suggest you read the original post again.

Standing back to back with your friend

[kraven]

If someone rushed me like that, I think my immediate reaction would be to deliver a nice swift side kick to his chest. While I might get my leg cut up, it is still better than getting my throat slashed while drawing my weapon. If I land a good shot, that will give me plenty of time to grab my weapon and end the situation.

A side kick will expose your femoral arteries and such to an attacker. You could bleed to death quickly as a result of a knife wound to your leg. Not to mention that your opponent doesn't have to be a knife only guy and could use that leg to trap or pin you.
engaging a knife weiling attacker with your limbs isn't the best way to buy yourself some time to draw and shoot.
Moving laterally or backwards seems like a better strategy.

[dfaugh]

If someone rushed me like that, I think my immediate reaction would be to deliver a nice swift side kick to his chest. While I might get my leg cut up, it is still better than getting my throat slashed while drawing my weapon. If I land a good shot, that will give me plenty of time to grab my weapon and end the situation.

Actually the way(s) I was taught (I studied Karate, Kung Fu, Aikido and Bando), If some one is "rushing me", there's a variety of effective moves. But, I would probably (as he gets in close) go into a crouching position (called different things in different disciplines), and "sweep" his legs. It very hard for someone to fight, or effectively use a knife, when their lying on the ground (Obviously, though, the next step is to disarm them, or land a disabling blow).

As someone mentioned, it makes a difference whether the "victim" knows the attack is coming. If its unexpected, there'll be another split second lag in reaction time.

Another "drill" that my Karate instructor used to use, and I've demonstarted over the years.... I have someone hold a butter knife (but I don't care if its a "real" knife, or a "gun", TOUCHING my throat, with my hands up. I TELL THEM that as soon as I move, to "poke me" with the knife, or pull the trigger.
I then start talking, reminding them to "go" as soon as I move. In the middle of a sentence, I sweep the weapon away, and move TOWARDS them, getting inside their arms, and take their legs out from under. If it were real I would follow up with a disabling punch. (I usually use a butter knife, as it usually ends up flying across the room--does less damage that way!). No one has ever "gotten" me yet.
The lesson here is, KEEP YOUR DISTANCE FROM ANY ASSAILLANT. IF you're close, there is NOTHING you can do, you'll never be able to react in time.

P.S. the first Karate instructor I had was simply amazing, blindingly fast. If you were within 21' of him, you were finished. I doubt you'd even come close to getting the gun out of the holster, befroe he took your head off. I would never have thought a human being could move that fast, if I hadn't seen it, many times, with my own eyes!

[dctag]

One issue this drill does not take into account is lateral / diagonal movement off the line of force by the shooter. We reinforce that during exercises with training marking rounds.

I have found very, very few who can do this at or around 21 ft.

I would love to try this out with Sims. I don't doubt Erick at all that the difficulty goes up exponentially when the guy is running right at you. I can do it all day on the range but the range is obviously not always reality.

-David

[Jeff #111]

And there is the problem for cops. We're almost always within a couple of feet of people. It's the nature of the job. Sometimes we are within inches. I'm well aware of the 21 foot rule. Whne I was a trainee (many years ago) I was shown the classic video "Suriving Edged Weapon Attacks" from Caliber Press. It was somewhat cheesy, but it got the point across (no pun intended). Over the years the 21 foot rule has become almost dogmatic in law enforcement.

New research is now indicating that perhaps it's time for some changes. There have been shootings involving officers and knife wielding suspects. According to the Force Science News there have been inccidents in which the suspect was within 21 feet and officers have shot them. Even though they weren't an immediate threat.

Officers have been drilled that 21 feet is the magic distance and if they're under that they are an immediate threat regardless of what they're doing. It's an unexpected development and now the "experts" are trying to figure out a new approach.

[stephen426]

Originally Posted by kraven

A side kick will expose your femoral arteries and such to an attacker. You could bleed to death quickly as a result of a knife wound to your leg. Not to mention that your opponent doesn't have to be a knife only guy and could use that leg to trap or pin you.
engaging a knife weiling attacker with your limbs isn't the best way to buy yourself some time to draw and shoot.
Moving laterally or backwards seems like a better strategy.

Kraven, a side kick exposes the outer part of your leg and puts your body the furthest away from an attacker. You still might get cut, but it is better than having a knife plunged into your chest or you throat slit. The femoral arteries are closer to the inside of your leg, close to your groin area.

While you feel it might be faster to move laterally or backwards, your attacker is moving forwards. Do you think you can move sideways or backwards faster than your attacker can move forwards? Unless your attacker is a bull, he should be able to change directions very quickly. You are putting very little distance by side stepping, and you risk tripping by not looking where you are moving. Now if you see the attacker coming from a distance, you can attempt to out run him. The problem is he is already moving and you are stationary. You also have to factor in the reaction time. It might work if you have very fast reflexes and are a fast runner.

You mentioned that your attacker may also be trained in martial arts and pin your leg. In that case, he will probably also be able to adjust for your slight movement and still cut you to shreds. If that were the case, there really isn't much that can be done except hope that you see the situation before it occurs and react quickly. One thing to think about is that most civilians don't have to worry about random people coming up to them and immeditely trying to slit their throats. Most of the time, it will be an ambush type situation and the attacker will ask for money. Based upon the video and discussions, it is better to give up the money than attempt to draw and shoot when the attacker is close.

You could always draw your gun as he is walking away and shoot him when you yell at him. (just kidding)

[Skyguy]

The 21ft test is meant to show novice gunslingers that they will nearly always lose the race.

Mutual wounding or mutual death is a real expectation because most motivated, charging threats will 'not' drop in their tracks even when shot multiple times with a handgun.

Novices have to learn that 'quick draw' is a game.....and 'early draw' is a tactic.
.

[M14fan]

I wonder what the results would be if the attacked were wielding a walking stick. I often use one that I built myself (old crush leg injury) even though I am armed with a sidearm and am able to walk, dodge, and evade (but not run) without it. I think a rush attack would likely meet with wooden resistance first, then the sidearm.

[Desertscout1]

Although it is not at all difficult, with some training, to present and fire two shots in under 1.5 seconds, the key (as someone else noted) is immediately moving off the line of attack.

The way we run the drill is put a runner 21 feet from the shooter at a diagonal to the shooter's rear. At the buzzer or whistle, the runner starts running towards the shooter and the shooter begins to engage a target placed 3 yards in front of him. The goal is to get off a shot (or more) at the target before the runner taps the shooter on the shoulder as he passes behind him. This way, the the shooter is actually shooting and feels a little physical contact as the runner passes by him. It's about as realistic as any other method although NONE of them take into account reaction time.

[stevelyn]

We've done this with a target stand mounted on a plastic kiddie sled. Shooter and dragger start off side x side. The dragger runs on signal dragging the target sled while shooter solves the problem.

It's very seldom the shooter will solve the problem without movement off the axis of attack before the target reaches arms' length.

Lesson: Move, shoot, shoot on the move.

[5whiskey]

+1 with the side kick stephen. +1 for dodging the blows at the last second river.

I'm a huge advocate of incorporating martial arts with firearms for self defense. Not only is it fun and good excercise, it could save your life one day. Now, I'm not saying to everyone who is older here to go out and take Karate. There are some good, realistic combat related martial arts that focus less on high impact moves and more on common every day self defense. I'm not knocking Karate, to anyone who studies it. I'm just saying their are simpler defense systems that are designed around wearing normal clothes or carrying firearms. Some even incorporate hand to hand fighting in flak jackets with a combat load. They focus more on simpler blows for the older and less athletic.

Anyhoo, I hope ya don't think I tried to hijack the thread. It's still related (sort of). Didn't mean to get on that tangent that long.

[snolden]

remember, the only thing that will save you here is tactical awareness. IF you don't get any clues before this happens (suspicious face, clothing etc or visible weapon) you are screwed.

So, keep your eyes open and moving. Stay away from blindspots, walk at least a few feet away from walls, etc.

[razorburn]

Out of curiosity, is the shooter not allowed to run too? I'm 21, and a personal trainer. I don't know how to say this without sounding kind of arrogant, but as a result I'm very well trained and in excellent physical conditioning, and could probably outrun 95-99% of the people out there. Honestly, if someone started running at me with a knife, I'd probably wouldn't bother to draw and just run too. I can run 2 miles at a dead sprint, so I'd try to just disappear into the sunset like that guy on the bucking bronco at the end of a cowboy movie .

If the guy has kept up chasing me halfway across town waving a knife, I think I'd have a good enough lead time by then to be able to draw and shoot at my leisure. Assuming nobody called the cops before then. It'd be quite a spectacle if we really go for miles, the whole time running down the street chased by some loony waving a knife like a crazed housewife.

[Boondoggie]

if someone started running at me with a knife, I'd probably wouldn't bother to draw and just run too.

I agree with you, but sometimes this option isn't available for various reasons.

Also remember that you will be reacting to someone's actions, depending on who you are and how you've trained, you will react differently. In times of stress you revert back to training.

[Model520Fan]

All very interesting, and I don't doubt the post about outrunning a knife-wielder. The problem is that serious knife attacks don't start at 21 feet. They start with an unexpected pain and noticing that you're bleeding, or at least so I am told. I have nothing to say to policemen, since almost all of them know far more than I do. For the rest of us, I think we need to stay out of bad areas, keep distance, and watch hands. And remember that the answer to a knife attack is slide lock (or dry fire, in the case of a loaded revolver).