Verification of powder charge

christcorp · May 3, 2009, 01:15 PM

OK; I've run into a question. I don't think it's a problem or concern, but I'd like to ask anyway. I've been reloading for about 25 years. I've never gotten into competition shooting or anything, so I've basically reloaded simply for relaxation and cost. I've ALWAYS used load data from sierra, speer, hornady, etc... And I've always reloaded in 50-75% load data range. Both handgun and rifle. Again, mostly for plinking, hunting, etc... (Self defense I normally buy factory rounds). Anyway; I'm babbling.

As I've said, I always use the load data. And I've never had an issue until now. Maybe my books are outdated, but I can't find the combination of "Powder - Bullet" that I want to reload. So, my question is: EXAMPLE - If I want to load a 175 grain bullet (Speer) with a certain powder (Accurate), but I can't find the POWDER listed for that bullet data; OR that BULLET listed in that Powder data; is it safe to assume that a 175 grain bullet data for just about ANY bullet manufacturer will be the same as for pressure and reloading???? I know accuracy, trajectory, etc... will be different between bullets. But; if say I have load data that says "X" grains of H4831 in a 175 grain Sierra bullet; But I'm using a Speer 175 grain bullet, will the grains of POWDER be the same for the H4831.

I believe that a 175 grain bullet with "X" amount of a particular powder, will create "Y" amount of pressure. And that it shouldn't matter WHO MADE THE BULLET. Is this a safe assumption.

Or if someone would like to be nice and knows the load data Min-Max for using a 7mm magnum, 175 grain Speer Hot-Cor Mag-Tip SP, with Accurate 3100 powder; that too would be greatly appreciated. Again; maybe my data is outdated, but I'd prefer not to have to buy another book and not know if the right combination is there. I have plenty of accurate load data, but nothing with the speer 175 grain in it. And I have plenty of Speer data, but nothing with 175 grain and accurate 3100 powder. But I have PLENTY of accurate 3100 load data with different 175 grain bullets by sierra, nosler, and hornedy. Thanks.... Mike....

Shoney · May 3, 2009, 02:17 PM

Your premise

Quote:

I believe that a 175 grain bullet with "X" amount of a particular powder, will create "Y" amount of pressure. And that it shouldn't matter WHO MADE THE BULLET. Is this a safe assumption.

is fairly sound. However, bullets from different manufacturers could have different diameters, different shapes, and different alloys. These factors could procuce higher pressures in the right combinations.

If you use a jacketed bullet that is different from one called for in the recipe, be sure to work up the loads from minimum to maximum, paying attention to pressure signs as you go up.

Different bullet brands can also effect the accuracy.

rn22723 · May 3, 2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

I believe that a 175 grain bullet with "X" amount of a particular powder, will create "Y" amount of pressure. And that it shouldn't matter WHO MADE THE BULLET. Is this a safe assumption

In general a qualified yeah but you need to keep the same case, primer, and charge. It is a matter of bearing bearing surface......Take for example the 30cal 168 SMK and 180 SMK have the same amount of bearing surface. And, compare the 155 Scenar vs the Sierra 155....
Over all use the right data for the right bullet by having plenty of reloading manuals....

dmazur · May 3, 2009, 02:49 PM

I'm sure someone else will jump in -

I believe that most jacketed bullets are similar enough to substitute. For example, I've used .45 ACP Speer JHP data for Hornady XTP's, which are a jacketed hollow point.

The exception is where there is a difference in design or material, and this is where one can get into trouble. For example, in .243 Win, Speer cautions that load data for their 100 gr Grand Slam should not be used for the 100 gr Boat Tail. For some powders, there is no difference in the data, but for some (Re19) there is a 2 grain difference!

Another example is Barnes copper bullets. These have significant difference in friction from gilding metal jacketed bullets, and the load data is different even though the bullet weights are the same.

General precautions apply, and it's probably OK to start with a minimum load for the "similar" bullet and work up, looking for the standard overpressure signs.

frank_1947 · May 3, 2009, 05:00 PM

I allways do that never ran into any problems in 28 years of reloading, as a matter of fact sometimes I want to use a specific powder like WST on lead 125 gr bullet well there is no data on WST for that bullet in 9mm so I go to a burn rate chart find a powder similar to burn rate as WST take that data down load it and go from there no problem, I have called people at Win and Hgdn and they say we just don't test them all in all calibers.

Burn rate is key factor.

WESHOOT2 · May 4, 2009, 09:08 AM

I am from a different school: Bullets vary wildly in material, construction, bearing surface, malleability, and other factors, IMO&E rendering bullet-specific data exactly that.

I have quite a bit of data, and often it, too, varies wildly.

What I do when I don't have specific data: I work up. I use my chronograph.

Yes, it's one thing if your goal is for something that safely goes bang, somewhere on the nowhere near end of maximum.
BUT, if you wish to explore maximized performance, then I recommend NEVER-EVER substituting data (hey, that's the same thing every single one of my manuals says, too; odd); I recommend working up, testing along the way ("chrono-mapping").

Safety first, ay?

frank_1947 · May 4, 2009, 09:51 AM

yes for 99% of loaders that would be true they need not go beyond mfg data but for the rest of us who shoot max and compete it is test and shoot and a chrony is all you can go by, I been testing this stuff for about 30 years been alot of fun, I would never recommend anyone who does not have the need for speed and a off shelf gun to load as we do in USPSA of coarse if you shoot Limted Class gun does not take much to make major in a 45 acp or 40SW you can stay within mfg standards, 200 gr bullet only needs 825 FPS to make major power factor.

For those who don't understand WHY a power factor, with a power factor everyone is shooting on the same playing field same amount of recoil for 40s and 45s as far the 9mm it is a matter of economics, and if we could not do it safely we would not be doing it in a world wide sport as USPSA OR IPSC.

like I said USPSA is all about safety

Watch the video at www.uspsa.org

SL1 · May 4, 2009, 10:57 AM

Christcorp,

To answer your generic question, Speer manual #14 provides two tables of load data for their 175 grain bullets in the 7mm Rem. Mag. One table is for their "Trophy Bonded Bear Claw" bullet, and the other is for their "Grand Slam" and "Mag Tip" bullets. For the Bear Claws, max charge weights range form 0 to 3 grains less than for the other two. So, yes, bullet construction CAN make a difference, even with cup-and-core type bullets from the same manufacturer. When you go to all-copper and all-guilding metal bullets, differences can be even greater. But, at least you know that Speer thinks the data for their Grand Slams are good for their Mag Tips.

With respect to data for AA-3100, Speer manual #14 doesn't have that. Accurate's manual does not list 3100 with a Speer Bullet, as you probably already know. I don't shoot the 7mm Mag, so I have not kept-up with the data for it. But I do shoot .270 Winchester, and I know that the max charge data for 3100 was REDUCED by 3 grains in a later revision for that cartridge. Then it was reduced by another grain in their current on-line manual. So, that will make it hard to do comparisons from one set of data to another for AA-3100 and the various 4831 powders, because the vintage of the data would be an issue that you might not be able to resolve.

As you probably also know, their current website data for the 7mm Rem Mag says:

Quote:

3100 175 HDY SP 54.5 gr 2,376 fps; 60.5 gr 2,700 fps 59,700 psi 3.275" COL

This Hornady Bullet is PROBABLY similar to the Mag Tips, but COLs and seating depths seem to be different between the Accurate and the Speer data.

As others have said, if you have a strong rifle, a chronograph, and a bunch of data for 3100 on similar bullets, then you should be able to work-up a load that is giving the same velocity and ABOUT the same pressure as the data for similar bullets.

I did try some AA-3100 loads for the 7mm Rem Mag in QuickLOAD, but came out about 10,000 psi LESS pressure than the data for the Hornady 175 grain bullet in the Accurate website. So, I would not trust my QuickLOAD results to guide you in developing a load with 3100.

SL1

christcorp · May 4, 2009, 12:35 PM

Well, for accurate 3100 powder, it has load data for 175 grain hornedy bullet. Minimum load is 54.5 grains of powder and maximum is 60.5 grains. So, being I'm using a 175 grain Speer Mag tip bullet, I should be fine using a load of between 54.5 and 60.5??? Correct? Thx Mike...

jamaica · May 4, 2009, 02:00 PM

You have had a lot of good responses to your question.

I know the feeling well. It seems I never have just the exact same combination of casing, primer and bullet as called for in the recipe.

I have used loads from the Hornady manual, with bullets of a similar design from other manufacturers, and never had any problems. I always start low and work up.

I have the Hornady manual, the Lyman manual, and the internet data from the powder manufacturers. If you look at all this data you will find some variations. My conclusion is that the published data is a guide line and we should always start low and work up to see how any load is going to work in our guns.

christcorp · May 4, 2009, 09:44 PM

I was pretty sure it wouldn't make much difference. Being the low end is 54.5 and the high end is 60.5 grains; I'll probably just pick something in between. When I hunt elk and moose, I use factory Nosler Partition ammunition. But I reload for practice; basic sighting in; and just for the hell of it. I usually shoot 5 rounds (Factory) prior to elk/moose season to tweak the scope calibration. I don't think I've ever used more than 10 rounds of ammo actually hunting per year. That's for 2 antelopes, 1 deer, and 1 elk. This past year it was 4 shots and 4 animals.

But this year, I'm probably going to load up about 50-60 rounds of the Speer Mag-Tips experiment for accuracy. With 175 grain bullet, I don't think the velocity is going to be that drastic between th load data of a sierra or Hornady bullet and the speer I will be shooting. If it shoots as accurately as I believe it will, I may go ahead and hunt with the hand loads. Thanks for all the great info. Mike.....

woolleyworm · May 5, 2009, 12:04 AM

dmazur - "I believe that most jacketed bullets are similar enough to substitute. For example, I've used .45 ACP Speer JHP data for Hornady XTP's, which are a jacketed hollow point."

XTP's are one bullet that I would not intermingle data and say that it's a comparable bullet; XTP's are a much differently designed jhp than most, hence the seperate load tables. The XTP's are longer oal for caliber and have a flat base, hence, to get the same OAL/COL you have to seat an XTP deeper into the case.

dmazur · May 5, 2009, 12:17 AM

wooleyworm -

Thanks. I hadn't noticed that. I have COL data for the XTP's, so I never looked for that from another source. I was referring to the powder charge for 230gr JHP bullets.

Substituting isn't a good idea. I guess that's why we tend to have at least 6 reloading manuals...

christcorp · May 5, 2009, 10:10 AM

dmazur. I agree that when possible, I should use available load data. But all the data I have; as well as what people are telling me about the newest Speer reloading manuals; doesn't show the combination of Accurate 3100 powder and a 175 grain Speer Mag-Tip bullet. Nor does the accurate load data show the speer 175 grain mag-tip bullet. So, I'm pretty much as a cross roads. Yes, I could go buy some H4831 powder or similar; but I have a lot of Accurate 3100 powder on hand. I've used it for most of my rifle reloading and like it. Especially with my sierra and nosler bullets. Most is for plinking and sighting and fun. But I've heard good things about the speer mag-tips, so I bought some the other day. Just prefer to use the powder I have on stock. thanks... mike....

May 3, 2009, 02:49 PM	#4
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	I'm sure someone else will jump in - I believe that most jacketed bullets are similar enough to substitute. For example, I've used .45 ACP Speer JHP data for Hornady XTP's, which are a jacketed hollow point. The exception is where there is a difference in design or material, and this is where one can get into trouble. For example, in .243 Win, Speer cautions that load data for their 100 gr Grand Slam should not be used for the 100 gr Boat Tail. For some powders, there is no difference in the data, but for some (Re19) there is a 2 grain difference! Another example is Barnes copper bullets. These have significant difference in friction from gilding metal jacketed bullets, and the load data is different even though the bullet weights are the same. General precautions apply, and it's probably OK to start with a minimum load for the "similar" bullet and work up, looking for the standard overpressure signs. __________________ .30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong

May 4, 2009, 09:08 AM	#6
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	not me never me I am from a different school: Bullets vary wildly in material, construction, bearing surface, malleability, and other factors, IMO&E rendering bullet-specific data exactly that. I have quite a bit of data, and often it, too, varies wildly. What I do when I don't have specific data: I work up. I use my chronograph. Yes, it's one thing if your goal is for something that safely goes bang, somewhere on the nowhere near end of maximum. BUT, if you wish to explore maximized performance, then I recommend NEVER-EVER substituting data (hey, that's the same thing every single one of my manuals says, too; odd); I recommend working up, testing along the way ("chrono-mapping"). Safety first, ay? __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

May 5, 2009, 12:04 AM	#12
woolleyworm Junior Member Join Date: January 12, 2009 Location: Waco, Tx Posts: 10	Hornady XTP's dmazur - "I believe that most jacketed bullets are similar enough to substitute. For example, I've used .45 ACP Speer JHP data for Hornady XTP's, which are a jacketed hollow point." XTP's are one bullet that I would not intermingle data and say that it's a comparable bullet; XTP's are a much differently designed jhp than most, hence the seperate load tables. The XTP's are longer oal for caliber and have a flat base, hence, to get the same OAL/COL you have to seat an XTP deeper into the case.

May 5, 2009, 12:17 AM	#13
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	wooleyworm - Thanks. I hadn't noticed that. I have COL data for the XTP's, so I never looked for that from another source. I was referring to the powder charge for 230gr JHP bullets. Substituting isn't a good idea. I guess that's why we tend to have at least 6 reloading manuals... __________________ .30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong

May 3, 2009, 01:15 PM	#1
christcorp Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Cheyenne, Wyoming Posts: 1,111	Verification of powder charge OK; I've run into a question. I don't think it's a problem or concern, but I'd like to ask anyway. I've been reloading for about 25 years. I've never gotten into competition shooting or anything, so I've basically reloaded simply for relaxation and cost. I've ALWAYS used load data from sierra, speer, hornady, etc... And I've always reloaded in 50-75% load data range. Both handgun and rifle. Again, mostly for plinking, hunting, etc... (Self defense I normally buy factory rounds). Anyway; I'm babbling. As I've said, I always use the load data. And I've never had an issue until now. Maybe my books are outdated, but I can't find the combination of "Powder - Bullet" that I want to reload. So, my question is: EXAMPLE - If I want to load a 175 grain bullet (Speer) with a certain powder (Accurate), but I can't find the POWDER listed for that bullet data; OR that BULLET listed in that Powder data; is it safe to assume that a 175 grain bullet data for just about ANY bullet manufacturer will be the same as for pressure and reloading???? I know accuracy, trajectory, etc... will be different between bullets. But; if say I have load data that says "X" grains of H4831 in a 175 grain Sierra bullet; But I'm using a Speer 175 grain bullet, will the grains of POWDER be the same for the H4831. I believe that a 175 grain bullet with "X" amount of a particular powder, will create "Y" amount of pressure. And that it shouldn't matter WHO MADE THE BULLET. Is this a safe assumption. Or if someone would like to be nice and knows the load data Min-Max for using a 7mm magnum, 175 grain Speer Hot-Cor Mag-Tip SP, with Accurate 3100 powder; that too would be greatly appreciated. Again; maybe my data is outdated, but I'd prefer not to have to buy another book and not know if the right combination is there. I have plenty of accurate load data, but nothing with the speer 175 grain in it. And I have plenty of Speer data, but nothing with 175 grain and accurate 3100 powder. But I have PLENTY of accurate 3100 load data with different 175 grain bullets by sierra, nosler, and hornedy. Thanks.... Mike....

May 3, 2009, 05:00 PM	#5
frank_1947 Member Join Date: August 9, 2008 Location: MO Posts: 76	I allways do that never ran into any problems in 28 years of reloading, as a matter of fact sometimes I want to use a specific powder like WST on lead 125 gr bullet well there is no data on WST for that bullet in 9mm so I go to a burn rate chart find a powder similar to burn rate as WST take that data down load it and go from there no problem, I have called people at Win and Hgdn and they say we just don't test them all in all calibers. Burn rate is key factor.

May 4, 2009, 09:51 AM	#7
frank_1947 Member Join Date: August 9, 2008 Location: MO Posts: 76	yes for 99% of loaders that would be true they need not go beyond mfg data but for the rest of us who shoot max and compete it is test and shoot and a chrony is all you can go by, I been testing this stuff for about 30 years been alot of fun, I would never recommend anyone who does not have the need for speed and a off shelf gun to load as we do in USPSA of coarse if you shoot Limted Class gun does not take much to make major in a 45 acp or 40SW you can stay within mfg standards, 200 gr bullet only needs 825 FPS to make major power factor. For those who don't understand WHY a power factor, with a power factor everyone is shooting on the same playing field same amount of recoil for 40s and 45s as far the 9mm it is a matter of economics, and if we could not do it safely we would not be doing it in a world wide sport as USPSA OR IPSC. like I said USPSA is all about safety Watch the video at www.uspsa.org

May 4, 2009, 12:35 PM	#9
christcorp Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Cheyenne, Wyoming Posts: 1,111	Well, for accurate 3100 powder, it has load data for 175 grain hornedy bullet. Minimum load is 54.5 grains of powder and maximum is 60.5 grains. So, being I'm using a 175 grain Speer Mag tip bullet, I should be fine using a load of between 54.5 and 60.5??? Correct? Thx Mike...

May 4, 2009, 02:00 PM	#10
jamaica Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2006 Location: Northern Utah Posts: 705	You have had a lot of good responses to your question. I know the feeling well. It seems I never have just the exact same combination of casing, primer and bullet as called for in the recipe. I have used loads from the Hornady manual, with bullets of a similar design from other manufacturers, and never had any problems. I always start low and work up. I have the Hornady manual, the Lyman manual, and the internet data from the powder manufacturers. If you look at all this data you will find some variations. My conclusion is that the published data is a guide line and we should always start low and work up to see how any load is going to work in our guns.

May 4, 2009, 09:44 PM	#11
christcorp Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Cheyenne, Wyoming Posts: 1,111	I was pretty sure it wouldn't make much difference. Being the low end is 54.5 and the high end is 60.5 grains; I'll probably just pick something in between. When I hunt elk and moose, I use factory Nosler Partition ammunition. But I reload for practice; basic sighting in; and just for the hell of it. I usually shoot 5 rounds (Factory) prior to elk/moose season to tweak the scope calibration. I don't think I've ever used more than 10 rounds of ammo actually hunting per year. That's for 2 antelopes, 1 deer, and 1 elk. This past year it was 4 shots and 4 animals. But this year, I'm probably going to load up about 50-60 rounds of the Speer Mag-Tips experiment for accuracy. With 175 grain bullet, I don't think the velocity is going to be that drastic between th load data of a sierra or Hornady bullet and the speer I will be shooting. If it shoots as accurately as I believe it will, I may go ahead and hunt with the hand loads. Thanks for all the great info. Mike.....

May 5, 2009, 10:10 AM	#14
christcorp Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Cheyenne, Wyoming Posts: 1,111	dmazur. I agree that when possible, I should use available load data. But all the data I have; as well as what people are telling me about the newest Speer reloading manuals; doesn't show the combination of Accurate 3100 powder and a 175 grain Speer Mag-Tip bullet. Nor does the accurate load data show the speer 175 grain mag-tip bullet. So, I'm pretty much as a cross roads. Yes, I could go buy some H4831 powder or similar; but I have a lot of Accurate 3100 powder on hand. I've used it for most of my rifle reloading and like it. Especially with my sierra and nosler bullets. Most is for plinking and sighting and fun. But I've heard good things about the speer mag-tips, so I bought some the other day. Just prefer to use the powder I have on stock. thanks... mike....