A Tale of Two Semi Automatic Rifles - Page 2

Jim567 · August 22, 2014, 04:53 AM

Yep to the above.
I am headed to the range with some Winchester ammo.
Not expecting much, but something

Jim567 · August 22, 2014, 04:59 AM

Supposed to be 98 degrees here today and humid.
Not the best conditions for shooting groups but I will press on

Jim567 · August 22, 2014, 12:22 PM

Bulls Eye are 2"

Mount pictured.

http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/...?1408728405668

Started out on the Red Dot with TullAmmo
I shot the centered group, the range-master shot the group to the left.
I shot a 2
shot ( will explain later ) 2.25 group / 3 shot 4.25 group.

http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/...?1408728405668

I then shot this group with the Red Dot and Winchester ammo.
2 shot 1.75" group / 3 shot 3.25 group.

http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/...DBDC62F383.jpg

I then shot this group open sites Winchester ammo!!! I was flabbergasted and humbled lol.
Two shot, 1" group / three shot 2.5" group,

Shot two more open sight groups to insure it wasn't a fluke with these 60 year old eyes. The TullAmmo opened up quite a bit with the open sites.

http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/...3C8C26E855.jpg

Note - following post I will explain further why I give the 2 shot group size. Consistently the third shot jumped out to the left on every single group I fired.
Same with the range-masters group.
Shots were 5-10 seconds apart. Weapon cooled between groups.

Jim567 · August 22, 2014, 01:05 PM

All firing at 100 yards.
First, this is just me and one weapon its not a scientific experiment.
The first two times I had the rifle I was having problems with my bench rest set up ( sled ) releasing the butt stock adjustment lever.
I also had folks with me and several rifles.
Today was just me and the Saiga and a better set up for an adjustable stock on a bench rest.
What I noticed right away is the third shot in the group always jumped out to the left. No matter who shot the rifle or what sight system I used or ammo fired.
I was shocked these old eyes shot the group with open sites they did.
I shot, but did not show a picture of groups with a 4 power scope. They were the worst groups!
The 4 power scope was the heaviest on the mount.
The red dot was much lighter on the mount and gave better groups even though it is not magnified.
The open sites gave a spectacular group with the Winchester ammo - for what that rifle is!
To recap -- every third shot flew left --
At the last I fired a string of about 12 rounds - again first couple in the bull but then strung out very quickly to the left and high. 8 " plus.
I welcome all comments.
Again, this was just me and that rifle on the day.
It was fun

Darn thing will shoot a 2" 2 shot group lol

The next time out I will let the barrel cool completely between each shot. If I can, patience not one of my virtues

Obviously more research ( fun ) is needed - but that Winchester cost me 28 bucks a box of 20 lol!!!

Darker Loaf · August 22, 2014, 06:52 PM

Jim567, if Winchester brass is too expensive (it'd be too expensive for me), try Hornady steel-cased SST's. They are only ~$35 to $30 per 50, which is extremely cheap for what is essentially match ammo.

I was able to pull off 1" groups with it with a milled Arsenal. It'd be interesting to see what you can pull off with SST's.

Jim567 · August 22, 2014, 07:27 PM

I will look for it.
Got the Winchester at Ace hardware

Still got 3/4 a case of TullAmmo

Darker Loaf · August 22, 2014, 08:45 PM

Awesome stuff: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/116...case-box-of-50

Jim567 · August 22, 2014, 09:01 PM

I'll get some

Jim567 · August 23, 2014, 07:26 AM

What it really got down to --
I wanted to know I could shoot better than Boris at the factory

Jim567 · August 23, 2014, 08:21 AM

Now I question - should I try a new mount?
It keeps zero fine with the red dot.
I need to work with the iron sights more, it didn't seem to string out as much as groups fired with the mount.
Why did the 4 power scope give horrible groups?
Lol ahhhh !!

Thus far in my AK/AR comparison --
The AR comes up as the more boring rifle

Bolt on scope - go!
The AK is getting shot more - squeaky wheel gets the grease.
It's been fun "greasing it ".

FilthyHarry · August 23, 2014, 10:06 AM

You "1-inch-group" guys crack me up. Are you choosing which heart valve to hit?

The AK is a battle rifle, and it seems to me a 6-inch group put into the chest of a target 100 yards away would be very effective fire.

Jim567 · August 23, 2014, 10:56 AM

Sure but --- ahh ---
1" - 2" group verses 6" group -

1" - 2" group rifle is a lot more forgiving for excitement / error if you need to factor it.

That's my logical argument.

Truth be known - it's just fun to monkey around and see what you can do.
If it wasn't I would have bought two ARs or something else.

There are scenarios I would rather have an AK

Darker Loaf · August 25, 2014, 01:01 PM

I grew up with precision bolt rifles that grouped 1/2 MOA, so 1" is kind of depressing for me. Is it critical? No, but for me a more accurate rifle tends to be more fun.

Jim567 · September 5, 2014, 01:26 PM

Hornady SST- 100 yards

http://rs1064.pbsrc.com/albums/u373/...854E8.jpg~c100

Above 2" group non magnified red dot

http://rs1064.pbsrc.com/albums/u373/...373FD.jpg~c100

Above 11 shot 4.5" group non magnified red dot. First shot dead center ( luck ) then as barrel heated - bullets always move to the left.

I guess that's OK with me. I could do just a tad better with a more expensive mount and scope. I did not buy this rifle to reload for - so I will settle.

tahunua001 · September 5, 2014, 10:04 PM

well you sure can't argue with that one in the middle... the rest must have all been flinching

Darker Loaf · September 6, 2014, 03:33 AM

I don't know what kind of data point you'll take your experience with SSTs as, but I'd say a 2" group, non-magnified or even a 4.5" inch group is some good shooting at 100 yards. I've done a lot of shooting and I will admit that at this point, I have no idea how I would group with any rifle at 100 yards, unmagnified--I just haven't done that for so long. But I'd still insist that you did well.

I'm am sorry if they did not live up to the potential that I thought they might achieve in your rifle. Maybe if you shot magnified? I hope I did not lead you astray.

Oh and thank you, Jim567, for posting your results. I find it very interesting to hear reports on people's accuracy with various ammunition.

Jim567 · September 6, 2014, 06:13 AM

Very happy with the ammo!
I believe the only way I could do marginally and I mean marginally better is to start experimenting with scopes and mounts.
Maybe I might get a half a MOA better. It's not worth it to me with this rifle. Too expensive

Next range trip I am going to take out to the 200 yard range.
Let ya know.
What amazed me most is how a warm barrel throws the bullets left so much.
I will say this lol I take a bit of pleasure getting better groups out of this set up than a lot of folks with variable power scopes and rifles costing 4 times my kit.
Whatever fine shooting skills I posses I owe to several kind and knowledgable folks at Markham park municipal range in Davie ( West Fort Lauderdale ).
All those years ago when I got out of the Army they took me under their wing and showed me all the good stuff

.
I belong to a great club in Jacksonville now ( Gateway ) and try and pay forward whenever I can.
And still learning.

Darker Loaf · September 6, 2014, 10:21 AM

The classic "bracket" mount on a typical AK-type rifle is probably one of the best. At least it seems that return to zero is easy, even when removing the scope (at least with my rifle). I would bet you'd get more accuracy out of a magnified optic, but you could be totally right in thinking it is not worth the money to spend on the rifle to eek out slightly tighter groups.

Glad you like the ammo! Keep up the good work!

This is the mount I used, and it works pretty darn well, getting the optic really, really close to the top cover of the AK. But you'd have to check with whatever optic you were going to put it in to make sure you had clearance. The only reason it's not on my gun (other than that it is being gunsmithed) is that would set me up to smash a $900 scope because I have a folding stock AK-variant that would put the scope past the hinge when the stock is folded.

Midwest industries: http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/...tegory_ID=1102

But they also have railed versions that you could play with more, but would also cost more with a traditional scope (not a red dot), because you'd have to have a set of rings to mount it to the picatinny rail:
http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/...ategory_ID=433

Jim567 · September 12, 2014, 02:17 PM

Ok --- Properly mounted a 3 power Sig Tac scope on the AK today.

It really did no better than the red dot on this rifle.

I am happy with 2- 3" 3 round groups with the rifle with Hornady rounds. I am happy with the red dot. Its fast and easy and easy on my eyes. Its a keeper for what is is.

The AR was easier to scope and more accurate and ergonomic.

I have to have both.

There

lol

Darker Loaf · September 12, 2014, 03:33 PM

Glad to hear you have a setup you like and that you are getting the groups you are happy with! Good shootin'! Have fun.

Jim567 · September 13, 2014, 10:03 AM

It's all relative.
The guy shooting an AK next to me exclaimed,
"Look, I was hitting the target!" Lol

Darker Loaf · September 13, 2014, 01:05 PM

Yup. 2-3" inches with non-magnified optics like you are getting is good and respectable. If I was merely just "hitting" a target (like 12 MOA), it just makes the gun less interesting and fun to me--and a no-go for hunting.

That's why I'll have a hard time NOT using my AR for deer hunting again. It just shoots what I point it at so well, and it's been more reliable for me than a number of ancient bolt and pump guns I've used for hunting. I'm hoping that my SAM7-SF gets fixed up into the nigh 100% reliability zone, so I might feel comfortable with that in the field again. I'd feel a little better using 7.62x39 on white tail than .223. BUT 50 grain v-max in .223 broke my deer's shoulder, broke rib, went through two lungs, and broke the exiting rib before resting just within the hide, which I'd say is plenty deadly. So, I figure if I take a good shot that a .223 will still get the job done.

Jim567 · September 13, 2014, 07:57 PM

I have noted - and I have been away from rifle ranges for 25 years -
Nothing changes.
If there are 10 folks on the line, usually only 3 or so have skills.
No matter what weapon is in their hands,they are happy with VERY large groups.

Jim567 · September 13, 2014, 08:09 PM

I have noted - and I have been away from rifle ranges for 25 years -
Nothing changes.
If there are 10 folks on the line, usually only 3 or so have skills.
No matter what weapon is in their hands,they are happy with VERY large groups.

Greguw · September 14, 2014, 09:11 AM

If you comparing AR to AK both guns should be a quality firearm ... Best I have found in AK47 is a Robinson Arms , no longer sold but there RPK heavy receiver and heavy chrome lined barrel they can hold there own in the pack .
Then comes down to as others have said ammo and the trigger man .

August 22, 2014, 12:22 PM	#28
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	Bulls Eye are 2" Mount pictured. http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/...?1408728405668 Started out on the Red Dot with TullAmmo I shot the centered group, the range-master shot the group to the left. I shot a 2 shot ( will explain later ) 2.25 group / 3 shot 4.25 group. http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/...?1408728405668 I then shot this group with the Red Dot and Winchester ammo. 2 shot 1.75" group / 3 shot 3.25 group. http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/...DBDC62F383.jpg I then shot this group open sites Winchester ammo!!! I was flabbergasted and humbled lol. Two shot, 1" group / three shot 2.5" group, Shot two more open sight groups to insure it wasn't a fluke with these 60 year old eyes. The TullAmmo opened up quite a bit with the open sites. http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/...3C8C26E855.jpg Note - following post I will explain further why I give the 2 shot group size. Consistently the third shot jumped out to the left on every single group I fired. Same with the range-masters group. Shots were 5-10 seconds apart. Weapon cooled between groups. Last edited by Jim567; August 22, 2014 at 08:57 PM.

August 22, 2014, 01:05 PM	#29
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	All firing at 100 yards. First, this is just me and one weapon its not a scientific experiment. The first two times I had the rifle I was having problems with my bench rest set up ( sled ) releasing the butt stock adjustment lever. I also had folks with me and several rifles. Today was just me and the Saiga and a better set up for an adjustable stock on a bench rest. What I noticed right away is the third shot in the group always jumped out to the left. No matter who shot the rifle or what sight system I used or ammo fired. I was shocked these old eyes shot the group with open sites they did. I shot, but did not show a picture of groups with a 4 power scope. They were the worst groups! The 4 power scope was the heaviest on the mount. The red dot was much lighter on the mount and gave better groups even though it is not magnified. The open sites gave a spectacular group with the Winchester ammo - for what that rifle is! To recap -- every third shot flew left -- At the last I fired a string of about 12 rounds - again first couple in the bull but then strung out very quickly to the left and high. 8 " plus. I welcome all comments. Again, this was just me and that rifle on the day. It was fun Darn thing will shoot a 2" 2 shot group lol The next time out I will let the barrel cool completely between each shot. If I can, patience not one of my virtues Obviously more research ( fun ) is needed - but that Winchester cost me 28 bucks a box of 20 lol!!! Last edited by Jim567; August 22, 2014 at 03:47 PM.

August 23, 2014, 08:21 AM	#35
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	Now I question - should I try a new mount? It keeps zero fine with the red dot. I need to work with the iron sights more, it didn't seem to string out as much as groups fired with the mount. Why did the 4 power scope give horrible groups? Lol ahhhh !! Thus far in my AK/AR comparison -- The AR comes up as the more boring rifle Bolt on scope - go! The AK is getting shot more - squeaky wheel gets the grease. It's been fun "greasing it ". Last edited by Jim567; August 23, 2014 at 08:29 AM.

August 23, 2014, 10:06 AM	#36
FilthyHarry Junior member Join Date: May 27, 2013 Posts: 222	Are you choosing which valve? You "1-inch-group" guys crack me up. Are you choosing which heart valve to hit? The AK is a battle rifle, and it seems to me a 6-inch group put into the chest of a target 100 yards away would be very effective fire.

August 23, 2014, 10:56 AM	#37
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	Sure but --- ahh --- 1" - 2" group verses 6" group - 1" - 2" group rifle is a lot more forgiving for excitement / error if you need to factor it. That's my logical argument. Truth be known - it's just fun to monkey around and see what you can do. If it wasn't I would have bought two ARs or something else. There are scenarios I would rather have an AK Last edited by Jim567; August 23, 2014 at 12:11 PM.

August 22, 2014, 04:53 AM	#26
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	Yep to the above. I am headed to the range with some Winchester ammo. Not expecting much, but something

August 22, 2014, 04:59 AM	#27
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	Supposed to be 98 degrees here today and humid. Not the best conditions for shooting groups but I will press on

August 22, 2014, 06:52 PM	#30
Darker Loaf Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2012 Posts: 715	Jim567, if Winchester brass is too expensive (it'd be too expensive for me), try Hornady steel-cased SST's. They are only ~$35 to $30 per 50, which is extremely cheap for what is essentially match ammo. I was able to pull off 1" groups with it with a milled Arsenal. It'd be interesting to see what you can pull off with SST's.

August 22, 2014, 07:27 PM	#31
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	I will look for it. Got the Winchester at Ace hardware Still got 3/4 a case of TullAmmo

August 22, 2014, 08:45 PM	#32
Darker Loaf Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2012 Posts: 715	Awesome stuff: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/116...case-box-of-50

August 22, 2014, 09:01 PM	#33
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	I'll get some

August 23, 2014, 07:26 AM	#34
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	What it really got down to -- I wanted to know I could shoot better than Boris at the factory

August 25, 2014, 01:01 PM	#38
Darker Loaf Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2012 Posts: 715	I grew up with precision bolt rifles that grouped 1/2 MOA, so 1" is kind of depressing for me. Is it critical? No, but for me a more accurate rifle tends to be more fun.

September 5, 2014, 01:26 PM	#39
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	Hornady SST- 100 yards http://rs1064.pbsrc.com/albums/u373/...854E8.jpg~c100 Above 2" group non magnified red dot http://rs1064.pbsrc.com/albums/u373/...373FD.jpg~c100 Above 11 shot 4.5" group non magnified red dot. First shot dead center ( luck ) then as barrel heated - bullets always move to the left. I guess that's OK with me. I could do just a tad better with a more expensive mount and scope. I did not buy this rifle to reload for - so I will settle. Last edited by Jim567; September 5, 2014 at 01:38 PM.

September 5, 2014, 10:04 PM	#40
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	well you sure can't argue with that one in the middle... the rest must have all been flinching __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

September 6, 2014, 03:33 AM	#41
Darker Loaf Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2012 Posts: 715	I don't know what kind of data point you'll take your experience with SSTs as, but I'd say a 2" group, non-magnified or even a 4.5" inch group is some good shooting at 100 yards. I've done a lot of shooting and I will admit that at this point, I have no idea how I would group with any rifle at 100 yards, unmagnified--I just haven't done that for so long. But I'd still insist that you did well. I'm am sorry if they did not live up to the potential that I thought they might achieve in your rifle. Maybe if you shot magnified? I hope I did not lead you astray. Oh and thank you, Jim567, for posting your results. I find it very interesting to hear reports on people's accuracy with various ammunition.

September 6, 2014, 06:13 AM	#42
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	Very happy with the ammo! I believe the only way I could do marginally and I mean marginally better is to start experimenting with scopes and mounts. Maybe I might get a half a MOA better. It's not worth it to me with this rifle. Too expensive Next range trip I am going to take out to the 200 yard range. Let ya know. What amazed me most is how a warm barrel throws the bullets left so much. I will say this lol I take a bit of pleasure getting better groups out of this set up than a lot of folks with variable power scopes and rifles costing 4 times my kit. Whatever fine shooting skills I posses I owe to several kind and knowledgable folks at Markham park municipal range in Davie ( West Fort Lauderdale ). All those years ago when I got out of the Army they took me under their wing and showed me all the good stuff . I belong to a great club in Jacksonville now ( Gateway ) and try and pay forward whenever I can. And still learning. Last edited by Jim567; September 6, 2014 at 06:36 AM.

September 6, 2014, 10:21 AM	#43
Darker Loaf Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2012 Posts: 715	The classic "bracket" mount on a typical AK-type rifle is probably one of the best. At least it seems that return to zero is easy, even when removing the scope (at least with my rifle). I would bet you'd get more accuracy out of a magnified optic, but you could be totally right in thinking it is not worth the money to spend on the rifle to eek out slightly tighter groups. Glad you like the ammo! Keep up the good work! This is the mount I used, and it works pretty darn well, getting the optic really, really close to the top cover of the AK. But you'd have to check with whatever optic you were going to put it in to make sure you had clearance. The only reason it's not on my gun (other than that it is being gunsmithed) is that would set me up to smash a $900 scope because I have a folding stock AK-variant that would put the scope past the hinge when the stock is folded. Midwest industries: http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/...tegory_ID=1102 But they also have railed versions that you could play with more, but would also cost more with a traditional scope (not a red dot), because you'd have to have a set of rings to mount it to the picatinny rail: http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/...ategory_ID=433

September 12, 2014, 02:17 PM	#44
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	Ok --- Properly mounted a 3 power Sig Tac scope on the AK today. It really did no better than the red dot on this rifle. I am happy with 2- 3" 3 round groups with the rifle with Hornady rounds. I am happy with the red dot. Its fast and easy and easy on my eyes. Its a keeper for what is is. The AR was easier to scope and more accurate and ergonomic. I have to have both. There lol Last edited by Jim567; September 12, 2014 at 02:22 PM.

September 12, 2014, 03:33 PM	#45
Darker Loaf Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2012 Posts: 715	Glad to hear you have a setup you like and that you are getting the groups you are happy with! Good shootin'! Have fun.

September 13, 2014, 10:03 AM	#46
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	It's all relative. The guy shooting an AK next to me exclaimed, "Look, I was hitting the target!" Lol

September 13, 2014, 01:05 PM	#47
Darker Loaf Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2012 Posts: 715	Yup. 2-3" inches with non-magnified optics like you are getting is good and respectable. If I was merely just "hitting" a target (like 12 MOA), it just makes the gun less interesting and fun to me--and a no-go for hunting. That's why I'll have a hard time NOT using my AR for deer hunting again. It just shoots what I point it at so well, and it's been more reliable for me than a number of ancient bolt and pump guns I've used for hunting. I'm hoping that my SAM7-SF gets fixed up into the nigh 100% reliability zone, so I might feel comfortable with that in the field again. I'd feel a little better using 7.62x39 on white tail than .223. BUT 50 grain v-max in .223 broke my deer's shoulder, broke rib, went through two lungs, and broke the exiting rib before resting just within the hide, which I'd say is plenty deadly. So, I figure if I take a good shot that a .223 will still get the job done.

September 13, 2014, 07:57 PM	#48
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	I have noted - and I have been away from rifle ranges for 25 years - Nothing changes. If there are 10 folks on the line, usually only 3 or so have skills. No matter what weapon is in their hands,they are happy with VERY large groups.

September 13, 2014, 08:09 PM	#49
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	I have noted - and I have been away from rifle ranges for 25 years - Nothing changes. If there are 10 folks on the line, usually only 3 or so have skills. No matter what weapon is in their hands,they are happy with VERY large groups.

September 14, 2014, 09:11 AM	#50
Greguw Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2006 Location: Bucks County , Pa Posts: 519	If you comparing AR to AK both guns should be a quality firearm ... Best I have found in AK47 is a Robinson Arms , no longer sold but there RPK heavy receiver and heavy chrome lined barrel they can hold there own in the pack . Then comes down to as others have said ammo and the trigger man .