Private range membership limitations due to safety concerns?

Dr. Strangelove · February 1, 2011, 01:29 AM

My private range currently has around 330 members, last year we had about 230. Club officers have expressed a desire to limit membership to 375, due to increased safety concerns, mostly relating to destruction of club property by "inconsiderate" members.

Range access is controlled only by a padlocked gate, no range masters are provided excepting club competitions, and shooting hours run 0900 to dark, excepting Sunday which is 1200 to dark, the public is allowed on the skeet ranges, provided a member is present and elects to take responsibility.

I have two concerns, one being that if we are suddenly having rampant safety violations and destruction of club property, then it seems to be a problem with the new members, not necessarily related to the sheer number of members in the club.

My second concern is that by limiting club membership, we are keeping members who sight in a deer rifle and shoot one other time a year at the expense of possibly gaining new members who may actually be active in the club.

I'd like to see a strict new member policy, as well as holding sponsoring members (new memberships "should" have two member sponsors, but this is a joke) responsible for those that they recommend, for a period of a year, for instance.

If we do limit membership, I'd like to see a requirement to be an "active" member. Sign up to mow grass, range maintenance, be a club officer, or at least enter in a club shooting competition or two. I would just hate to see spots being taken up by folks just "place-holding" and shooting once a year.

What do you folks with range management experience think?

kadima · February 1, 2011, 05:30 AM

Limiting the number of members in a private range when the number exceeds the possibilities of the range itself sounds a sensible proposition.
However, from what you posted, the "inconsiderate" members are already on board.
I would suggest to take, as a first step, a survey of the usage of the range by the different members (provided you keep a record). There may be different categories of members or particular sessions for hunters to zero their sights.
Rather than having existing members to second the joining request of new members you may consider to have a probation time when the new member can attend the range only when a "wise old" member can check them.

Just my two cents....

K.

teeroux · February 1, 2011, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Club officers have expressed a desire to limit membership to 375

Coincidently my club had the same thing last year and 375 was the magic number the range's insurance would go up. The insurance company also had said we would need a couple particular rules we would need to follow to stay under coverage but nothing had ever changed in the clubs rule book so I guess we always had them and it was a non issue.

Yankee Doodle · February 1, 2011, 09:50 AM

In my club, each member is required to fulfill a "work hour" requirement of 40 hours a year. This is used for maintainance, range officer duties, work at the ranges, etc. Miss your hours, and you're gone.
All ranges, Short range rifle, long range rifle, outdoor pistol, indoor pistol and trap, are lock controlled. Except for the indoor pistol, and trap ranges all you do is enter the combination, and then sign in. When you leave, sign out and lock the gate. Indoor Pistol requires that a certified range officer be present. Needless to say, the trap ranges require a trap crew to be there. This way, we have a running record of who was there, and when. Makes it really easy to follow up if any damage should appear. Any observed safety violations means a trip before the Executive Board for a hearing. This is a no tolerance violation. If found guilty of a safety violation, you're gone.
Club is limited by charter to 285 members, and new members must be sponsered by two members who have known him for a minimum of 2 years. One of the sponsers is held accountable for the conduct of the new member for the first year.
Just the way we do it, but it has worked for the 77 years that the club has been in existence.
I don't know if this will help you, but take it for what it's worth.

mwar410 · February 1, 2011, 07:58 PM

That is a problem that alot of private clubs face. There are no babysitters and some ignorant people really need them. I'm not being mean but there is alot of people who were never taught about proper targets/ target placement/ ricocets/ gun handling/ ect. And then there's the totally inconsiderate ones who just don't care, ( destruction of property).
Limiting the membership won't effect anything but the books, we have say 200 members and only about 50 are active users. About 20 show up to vote on how 200 membership dues are to be spent. That's pretty good on one hand, but then on the other there is alot of members you don't have a clue who they are/ or if they are members.
Rules and regulations, signage, more volunteers to police the range and threatening of enforcement might help the situation, but I would doubt it will work. You'll have to catch them doing it, Know who they are, and report them to the board. I would absolutely do this myself, but couldn't expect the general membership to.

SwampYankee · February 2, 2011, 07:43 AM

Unfortunately, it only takes one bad apple to poison the whole cart. At one of the nearby clubs, one of the members was bringing all his friends (who were not members) down to the pistol range a couple times a week. He should have known better, apparently he was the guy in charge of the pistol range! Anyway, regular members were being bumped off the range because of the lack of space. It got pretty messy. He was hollered at, resigned his post, may have even left the club. I was told that a whole bunch of new rules were implemented in the wake of this minor scandal. Courtesy and common sense go along way, too bad so many folks don't possess either.

AirForceShooter · February 2, 2011, 08:05 AM

Ahhhh. It's the new guys.

Why not figure out which guys are the real problem and kick them out.
Even if they're OLD guys

AFS

darkgael · February 2, 2011, 08:28 AM

I am in charge of an indoor range at a private club in Brooklyn, NYC, NY. We have about 200 members.
We are not a turnkey club. For some one to get a key, they must take a range safety course that is given twice a year. They must take this regardless of other qualifications that they may have. They also must come down to the club and shoot with me or shoot while I am on the range (more than once or twice). I make it a point to know, personally, how some one who wants a key handles a firearm.
So far.....it's been 20 years.....there have been no issues.
The club also has a rule that allows a member to bring a friend in to shoot - once.
After that, if the friend likes to shoot, they are free to join the club.
Pete

Dr. Strangelove · February 2, 2011, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kadima

I would suggest to take, as a first step, a survey of the usage of the range by the different members (provided you keep a record). There may be different categories of members or particular sessions for hunters to zero their sights.
Rather than having existing members to second the joining request of new members you may consider to have a probation time when the new member can attend the range only when a "wise old" member can check them.

Unfortunately, we keep no record of range use, save the skeet/trap ranges, where people have to sign for their rounds (so they can be charged for the targets).

Yes, I think we need to reevaluate the new member process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teeroux

Coincidently my club had the same thing last year and 375 was the magic number the range's insurance would go up.

This may be the case with us, as well. I'm not against limiting membership as long as we require members to active, participating members of the club.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yankee Doodle

In my club, each member is required to fulfill a "work hour" requirement of 40 hours a year. This is used for maintenance, range officer duties, work at the ranges, etc. Miss your hours, and you're gone.
All ranges, Short range rifle, long range rifle, outdoor pistol, indoor pistol and trap, are lock controlled. Except for the indoor pistol, and trap ranges all you do is enter the combination, and then sign in. When you leave, sign out and lock the gate. Indoor Pistol requires that a certified range officer be present. Needless to say, the trap ranges require a trap crew to be there. This way, we have a running record of who was there, and when. Makes it really easy to follow up if any damage should appear. Any observed safety violations means a trip before the Executive Board for a hearing. This is a no tolerance violation. If found guilty of a safety violation, you're gone.

I'm not sure sign in sheets would work, there usually no one at the range, so there is little incentive to sign in, particularly for those who would cause damage. I'll bring it up at the next meeting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

Unfortunately, it only takes one bad apple to poison the whole cart. At one of the nearby clubs, one of the members was bringing all his friends (who were not members) down to the pistol range a couple times a week. He should have known better, apparently he was the guy in charge of the pistol range! Anyway, regular members were being bumped off the range because of the lack of space. It got pretty messy. He was hollered at, resigned his post, may have even left the club. I was told that a whole bunch of new rules were implemented in the wake of this minor scandal. Courtesy and common sense go along way, too bad so many folks don't possess either.

I believe this is our problem, possibly someone getting Daddy's key and bringing his friends, from the looks of things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirForceShooter

Ahhhh. It's the new guys.

Why not figure out which guys are the real problem and kick them out.
Even if they're OLD guys

All members are being asked to keep an extra out out for safety violations, and especially for vandalism.

(By the way, AirForceShooter, stop into Last Call on Manatee Ave in Bradentucky and have a cold with Dee Dee and Trish, my two favorite bartenders.

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkgael

I am in charge of an indoor range at a private club in Brooklyn, NYC, NY. We have about 200 members.
We are not a turnkey club. For some one to get a key, they must take a range safety course that is given twice a year. They must take this regardless of other qualifications that they may have. They also must come down to the club and shoot with me or shoot while I am on the range (more than once or twice). I make it a point to know, personally, how some one who wants a key handles a firearm.

I personally would like to see a more stringent new member process, to include holding a member responsible for a year for those s/he sponsors.

Thanks for the ideas, I'm going to bring up some of these at our annual membership meeting this week.

hoytinak · February 2, 2011, 12:21 PM

One of the ranges here has a 250 member limit. It's setup pretty much the same with just a gate and padlock to get in. Once you're in you are supposed to sign in/out. They had a problem with people shooting benches and other stuff up so they added a couple cameras and that pretty much solved it as they were able to catch the people and kick them out.

One of these days, I hope to get a membership there myself.....there's about a 2 1/2 yr waiting list.

Wuchak · February 2, 2011, 01:33 PM

I could never understand the logic behind the complaint about members who only show up once a year to sight in their hunting rifle. That is what they want out of the club. A place to shoot once a year and that's it. They pay for it and they are subsidizing the cost of the club for those who use it more frequently. Seems like a great deal having someone else pay for a large portion of your recreation costs.

The once a year member never says, "We need to limit people's use to once a year at the club, because that's how I use it so that's how everyone should use it." Instead there is always a group who makes the club a big part of their social life. People who are really into shooting. They have an insatiable desire to try to push this on those members who don't want any or minimal part of the social aspect and are not regular shooters. They cannot comprehend that for some the club is nothing but a place to go and shoot when the mood strikes but not a place to make the center of their universe.

I have been in a club where I was an active member and shot weekly and hung around the clubhouse with the other members and went to every board meeting. Now all I want is safe, nice, place to go shooting. I have no interest in participating in the running of the club, I think the club leaders are doing a fine job, nor do I have any desire to spend my free time maintaining the facility. I gladly pay dues that allow us to pay for someone to do the maintenance. So for now I pay the same dues as the guy who goes to the club 5x a week. He's using up the plywood backstops but my dues are helping to pay for the labor and materials to replace them. I help pay to keep the grass mowed, the benches that I never us in good repair, the electric, insurance, etc. I don't complain about paying the same about as active member since my less frequent use is my choice. I just wish active members would respect that choice and quit trying to push their choices on me and other less active members.

ETA: To the original question. I agree with those who said they should be going after the bad eggs in your current membership rather than looking for a membership cap to solve the problem. The only reason for the cap would be if the ranges are getting unsafe or backed up due to overcrowding.

BigJimP · February 2, 2011, 02:08 PM

I think the struggles you're having are pretty typical ...especially with some members thinking the rules don't apply to them, etc.

A couple of observations....

a. Having more members doesn't mean the club is more prone to accidents. Its usually the "mentality" of the members and guests on safety that causes the problems. One member on a Skeet field / loading 3 shells in a pump gun ...is the kind of thing that is seen by many people ...and then it becomes the "norm" ....( even though it violates the safety rules of Skeet - and of the club probably ).

b. Having a range open to the "public" does often make it more dangerous / because you're going to get all kinds of people, all kinds of gun handling discipline ( or lack thereof ), and all kinds of shooters - that want to do their own thing. If you have a "public" range ...you might need an orientation, a waiver sheet, better rule posting, etc ....and range safety officers moving around the facility making sure everything is ok...

c. Allowing members to bring guests - is probably ok / especially if they have to sign them in and will be held responsible for them. You might want to limit the number of guests a yr / a member can bring in....

d. the issue of "all members" have to work / serve on the board ...makes no sense to me. I understand the idea of spreading out the work ...but I would lean more toward giving the guys that do the work something ( a break on dues, target fees, etc ) rather than insisting everyone do something. What are you going to do with a member that has a bad back, a bad shoulder, someone who works 6 days a week .... Some guys have more spare time, live closer, etc ...and choose to participate ....and some don't ...but shutting them out of membership makes no sense to me.

e. Every gun club needs money / and if you have members that don't use it - but still pay ...its actually a good thing. I don't understand the concept of limiting membership --- unless its so crowded on primary shooting days ---that you have to wait a long time to shoot. Then I can see that you would have to limit the membership / based on the size of the facility.

f. If you adopt the same attitude as any business .... make sure you have contingency funds left over every year(say 20% of your annual operating budget ) in savings .....make sure you have a good liability insurance policy, make sure you have good property insurance, pay the utilities, pay someone to cut the grass, etc ....then it just makes more sense to me ....

If you have to raise the range fees - then you should do that.

I belong to 2 clubs now ( used to belong to 5 clubs at one time - 3 shotgun clubs, 1 rifle & handgun club, 1 handgun club) ...and I cut back. One is a shotgun only club - Trap, Skeet, Sporting / and one is an indoor range ( mostly handgun ). Life membership was about $1,000 for each ....and then I pay target fees at the shotgun club / lanes are free to me as a member at the handgun club. Both clubs are open to the public as well / but we have some areas that are reserved for members. Shotgun is all volunteers - and has all kind of issues...and politics...and is constantly hurting for money. The handgun club is professionally owned and run strictly with employees - and has lots of money. Neither club limits the number of members. At the handgun club / on busy days - members have priority for shooting lanes over non-members and members pay nothing to rent a lane. Non members pay about $ 15 to rent a lane.../ if they come in as a guest, its about $10 vs $ 15 ..... The handgun club is set up to encourage membership - tells everyone up front ...as a non-member you'll pay more / but if you only shoot twice a year ....you're better off not being a member / and they charge accordingly. The handgun club has about 12 employees that work the range / 4 full time ...and 8 or so, that are part time range safety officers. He uses a lot of retired guys as full time ...so he doesn't need to pay a lot of money in benefits. Part time guys get no benefits ... It keeps him competitive. He's very busy / and its a good safe place to shoot. I go about twice a week for 3 or so hours at a time.... I go to the shotgun club once a week for about 5 hours.

I don't think there is an easy answer to this ...but you have to look at the bottom line ...and grow the revenue ...whether its with the "public" or with memberships --- or both.

Dr. Strangelove · February 2, 2011, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoytinAK

They had a problem with people shooting benches and other stuff up so they added a couple cameras and that pretty much solved it as they were able to catch the people and kick them out.

That's probably the next step.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wuchak

I could never understand the logic behind the complaint about members who only show up once a year to sight in their hunting rifle. That is what they want out of the club. A place to shoot once a year and that's it. They pay for it and they are subsidizing the cost of the club for those who use it more frequently. Seems like a great deal having someone else pay for a large portion of your recreation costs.

I understand your viewpoint, and agree with it as long as membership isn't limited. I don't agree with keeping a member who shoots once a year at the expense of a new member who wants to contribute to the club in a more positive manner in a limited membership situation.

Dr. Strangelove · February 2, 2011, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJimP

I think the struggles you're having are pretty typical ...especially with some members thinking the rules don't apply to them, etc.

A couple of observations....

You're right on target (

) with your observations. We have been a small club for 50+ years and added 100 new members in the last year. Our guest policy has always been they are welcome, just use judgment and common sense. (Don't bring 8 guests at time, member must supervise, etc.)

We currently don't require anything but a check every year to remain a member. Grass mowing, range maintenance, board membership, etc. is voluntary, we reimburse expenses and give a free membership to those who help out.

The few problems we have are related to "bullet vandalism" on the ranges, the board just wants to "nip this in the bud" before it becomes a more serious issue.

We don't have overcrowding issues, we have very large campus with generous amounts of shooting stations.

I'm against a membership cap as simply a knee-jerk reaction based on a few easily solvable issues. The membership needs new blood, in my opinion and I'm against shutting folks out who may become productive members of the club.

BigJimP · February 2, 2011, 04:23 PM

I agree ...but what works in a suburb of Seattle ....or any other big city ....may not work in medium sized cities like Athens, GA ...let alone more rural areas.

Range owners / Range Management is one of the toughest things I could imagine trying to open and run in this day of latigous natures ...and general lack of responsibility I see from "members" or "customers" ...in the way they treat business facilities or recreation areas in general - make it even worse...

A saturday, at a public indoor range, that rents handguns ...is one of the scariest places I can think of to hang out ....and a public shotgun range ...is a pretty close 2nd ...and it seems to be worse in metropolitan areas than in smaller towns .....and I don't know how I would ever be able to deal with the "public" ....in this day and age .../with all their "Tacky Cool guns" ... It would drive me nuts ...

Wuchak · February 2, 2011, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

I understand your viewpoint, and agree with it as long as membership isn't limited. I don't agree with keeping a member who shoots once a year at the expense of a new member who wants to contribute to the club in a more positive manner in a limited membership situation.

Right there you are displaying the attitude that I'm talking about. The guy who shoots once a year is contributing in a very positive manner. He is paying for the club but not putting any wear on it. He is not coming to the club governance meetings and starting arguments or trying to fight the board on every move. He is providing the most important support a club can have, financial. He is a net positive contributor. The guy who is active who shoots up the equivalent of 20 plywood backstops a year is, from a financial point of view, a net negative member (depending on your dues amount). He might do other things for the club but they are losing money by having him as a member. How many members can a club afford to lose money on and remain viable? The more active the member the more likely it is they are costing the club to have them as a member.

You have added 100 new members in the last year and now you have problems. Those problems are not caused by the long time shoot once a year members. They are caused by the new more active members. You need to examine your new member process to figure out how the bad actors are getting in.

Most people only have one gun club nearby. They join and then remain members for decades. Consider how the time someone has for the club will ebb and flow over that timespan. When someone first joins they might be young and single and able to spend lots of time at the club. Then they get married and have kids and don't have the time any longer. Then their kids grow and move out and they have time again and become more active in the club. It could also be that they just lose interest in shooting for a while. That happens. Do you take someone who has been a member for 30 years but now only comes to shoot once a year and toss them out to make a place for some new guy who after a couple of years is also only going to be there once a year? What happens when that new guy's wife loses her job and he has to take a second job on the weekends so he can no longer spend any time at the club. Do you toss him out because he's no longer "contributing in a positive manner"?

The question is if the place is intended to be a shooting club or a social club. Is it a free association club where you pay your dues and use it as much or as little as you wish or is there some minimum amount of time required to be spent at the club to remain a member?

In addition to the gun clubs I've also belonged to other volunteer groups. Most of the time there are about 10% of the people who are really involved in the running of the group, another 20% that can be counted on for some level of support in running the group, and the remaining 70% just want to be a basic contributor with no part in running the group at all.

mwar410 · February 2, 2011, 08:15 PM

I don't know how you are going to take care of the "bullet vandalism", it's easy to say we will find out who's doing it and get rid of them. But the fact of the matter is you have to catch them. Do you confront some one you don't know (armed and already being dangerous) and ask for I.D. or a membership card ? That is if you are there while they are doing it.
Cameras are pricey and I'm not sure how they would work, Do you put one on the firing line, one on the range, and one on each thing you don't want shot?
Our biggest problem is improper target position, On the hundred yard range targets will be placed at 20yds, or on station 8 pad, or the center stake.
We have spent alot of money trying to idiot proof the club, and it seems like you would really have to go out of your way not to shoot safely. We now have 25yd,50yd,100yd,200yd berms in place with shooting benches for all of them. (targets must be no more than 5yds from berm)

SwampYankee · February 2, 2011, 10:02 PM

I love my club for one reason: Most members shoot skeet and trap.

I don't even own a shotgun.

When I head down to the rifle range on a weekday morning, I can guarantee I'll be on my own for at least an hour, sometimes all morning.

The guys who show up to sight in their hunting rifles are few and far between but I'm usually leaving by the time one of them shows up

SVO · February 3, 2011, 12:38 AM

Your range situation sounds a lot like where the range I belong to was several years ago. There was a big fight between raising the membership from 250 to 500, while some wanted to cut it down to 100 members. We finally started raising the membership and haven't seen any kind of upswing in range vandalism. Theory seems to be the more people using the range helps police the range better. We also have several retirees that show up on a semi regular basis to act as RO. We're now up to around 900-1,000 members and have a much better range due to the increased membership dues being re-invested into range facilities.

Double Naught Spy · February 3, 2011, 12:52 AM

Quote:

What do you folks with range management experience think?

I think that until you get your range destruction under control, limiting membership is a good idea. Adding new members isn't going to help resolve your range destruction problem.

Quote:

I have two concerns, one being that if we are suddenly having rampant safety violations and destruction of club property, then it seems to be a problem with the new members, not necessarily related to the sheer number of members in the club.

If you don't actually know who is damaging the range, then how do you know the damage is from the new members?

Dr. Strangelove · February 3, 2011, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wucak

Right there you are displaying the attitude that I'm talking about. The guy who shoots once a year is contributing in a very positive manner. He is paying for the club but not putting any wear on it. He is not coming to the club governance meetings and starting arguments or trying to fight the board on every move. He is providing the most important support a club can have, financial. He is a net positive contributor. The guy who is active who shoots up the equivalent of 20 plywood backstops a year is, from a financial point of view, a net negative member (depending on your dues amount). He might do other things for the club but they are losing money by having him as a member. How many members can a club afford to lose money on and remain viable? The more active the member the more likely it is they are costing the club to have them as a member.

You have added 100 new members in the last year and now you have problems. Those problems are not caused by the long time shoot once a year members. They are caused by the new more active members. You need to examine your new member process to figure out how the bad actors are getting in.

Most people only have one gun club nearby. They join and then remain members for decades. Consider how the time someone has for the club will ebb and flow over that timespan. When someone first joins they might be young and single and able to spend lots of time at the club. Then they get married and have kids and don't have the time any longer. Then their kids grow and move out and they have time again and become more active in the club. It could also be that they just lose interest in shooting for a while. That happens. Do you take someone who has been a member for 30 years but now only comes to shoot once a year and toss them out to make a place for some new guy who after a couple of years is also only going to be there once a year? What happens when that new guy's wife loses her job and he has to take a second job on the weekends so he can no longer spend any time at the club. Do you toss him out because he's no longer "contributing in a positive manner"?

The question is if the place is intended to be a shooting club or a social club. Is it a free association club where you pay your dues and use it as much or as little as you wish or is there some minimum amount of time required to be spent at the club to remain a member?

In addition to the gun clubs I've also belonged to other volunteer groups. Most of the time there are about 10% of the people who are really involved in the running of the group, another 20% that can be counted on for some level of support in running the group, and the remaining 70% just want to be a basic contributor with no part in running the group at all.

I don't and didn't mean any offense. In the case of a purely commercial, for profit range, I absolutely agree with everything that you have to say. Even in the case of a mixed club/commercial property, you are still correct.

In our case, we are a small, not for profit, private club who relies on the membership to make things happen, and that's the way we want it to be. We have nice rifle and pistol ranges with covered benches built by members who have that skill. We have nice target frames and steel targets built by members who have those skills. We have two skeet fields and a clubhouse built and maintained by members with those skills. The grounds are maintained by members who have those skills. We have at least one match of some kind per month, conceived, staffed and scored by volunteer members. In short, we pay for very little outside work because our membership steps up and takes care of what needs to be done.

Older members are accommodated at our matches, and no one makes them feel out of place or like they are holding up the whole field. Currently, nothing is expected of our members except a check every year. I do understand the demands of modern life on people but frankly; if you can't make it to a couple of meetings a year, or shoot in a match or two, or do something else productive to the club, then we're better off if you join a commercial range.

Dr. Strangelove · February 3, 2011, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mwar410

I don't know how you are going to take care of the "bullet vandalism", it's easy to say we will find out who's doing it and get rid of them. But the fact of the matter is you have to catch them. Do you confront some one you don't know (armed and already being dangerous) and ask for I.D. or a membership card ? That is if you are there while they are doing it.
Cameras are pricey and I'm not sure how they would work, Do you put one on the firing line, one on the range, and one on each thing you don't want shot?
Our biggest problem is improper target position, On the hundred yard range targets will be placed at 20yds, or on station 8 pad, or the center stake.
We have spent alot of money trying to idiot proof the club, and it seems like you would really have to go out of your way not to shoot safely. We now have 25yd,50yd,100yd,200yd berms in place with shooting benches for all of them. (targets must be no more than 5yds from berm)

We're all supposed to wear ID badges and challenge those who don't. It's tough because the vast majority of members don't wear their badges, and most folks are unwilling to get involved. Remember, it's been a small "old boys" type of club for 50 years.

Target destruction is our main problem, rifle range target stands are plywood bolted to steel frames, it seems some delight in shooting off the bolt heads holding the frames together, or shooting the pistol steels with ammo that craters/holes them.

Dr. Strangelove · February 3, 2011, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy

If you don't actually know who is damaging the range, then how do you know the damage is from the new members?

Good point, Jethro. (

).

It does seem that in 50 years, if we haven't had these issues, then it makes sense to look at new membership.

I'm more inclined to think it's kids getting Daddy's key and bringing friends than folks that choose to go through the membership process.

Dr. Strangelove · February 3, 2011, 02:54 AM

Quote:

=SwampYankeeI love my club for one reason: Most members shoot skeet and trap.

I don't even own a shotgun.

When I head down to the rifle range on a weekday morning, I can guarantee I'll be on my own for at least an hour, sometimes all morning.

The guys who show up to sight in their hunting rifles are few and far between but I'm usually leaving by the time one of them shows up

Same way at mine. It swings one way or the other, depending on current leadership and memebrship, but at this time it's a shotgun club that happens to have a rifle and pistol range. Suits me just fine.

February 1, 2011, 01:29 AM	#1
Dr. Strangelove Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2008 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 1,436	Private range membership limitations due to safety concerns? My private range currently has around 330 members, last year we had about 230. Club officers have expressed a desire to limit membership to 375, due to increased safety concerns, mostly relating to destruction of club property by "inconsiderate" members. Range access is controlled only by a padlocked gate, no range masters are provided excepting club competitions, and shooting hours run 0900 to dark, excepting Sunday which is 1200 to dark, the public is allowed on the skeet ranges, provided a member is present and elects to take responsibility. I have two concerns, one being that if we are suddenly having rampant safety violations and destruction of club property, then it seems to be a problem with the new members, not necessarily related to the sheer number of members in the club. My second concern is that by limiting club membership, we are keeping members who sight in a deer rifle and shoot one other time a year at the expense of possibly gaining new members who may actually be active in the club. I'd like to see a strict new member policy, as well as holding sponsoring members (new memberships "should" have two member sponsors, but this is a joke) responsible for those that they recommend, for a period of a year, for instance. If we do limit membership, I'd like to see a requirement to be an "active" member. Sign up to mow grass, range maintenance, be a club officer, or at least enter in a club shooting competition or two. I would just hate to see spots being taken up by folks just "place-holding" and shooting once a year. What do you folks with range management experience think?

February 1, 2011, 09:50 AM	#4
Yankee Doodle Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Posts: 619	In my club, each member is required to fulfill a "work hour" requirement of 40 hours a year. This is used for maintainance, range officer duties, work at the ranges, etc. Miss your hours, and you're gone. All ranges, Short range rifle, long range rifle, outdoor pistol, indoor pistol and trap, are lock controlled. Except for the indoor pistol, and trap ranges all you do is enter the combination, and then sign in. When you leave, sign out and lock the gate. Indoor Pistol requires that a certified range officer be present. Needless to say, the trap ranges require a trap crew to be there. This way, we have a running record of who was there, and when. Makes it really easy to follow up if any damage should appear. Any observed safety violations means a trip before the Executive Board for a hearing. This is a no tolerance violation. If found guilty of a safety violation, you're gone. Club is limited by charter to 285 members, and new members must be sponsered by two members who have known him for a minimum of 2 years. One of the sponsers is held accountable for the conduct of the new member for the first year. Just the way we do it, but it has worked for the 77 years that the club has been in existence. I don't know if this will help you, but take it for what it's worth. Last edited by Yankee Doodle; February 1, 2011 at 09:55 AM.

February 2, 2011, 08:28 AM	#8
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	Range I am in charge of an indoor range at a private club in Brooklyn, NYC, NY. We have about 200 members. We are not a turnkey club. For some one to get a key, they must take a range safety course that is given twice a year. They must take this regardless of other qualifications that they may have. They also must come down to the club and shoot with me or shoot while I am on the range (more than once or twice). I make it a point to know, personally, how some one who wants a key handles a firearm. So far.....it's been 20 years.....there have been no issues. The club also has a rule that allows a member to bring a friend in to shoot - once. After that, if the friend likes to shoot, they are free to join the club. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

February 2, 2011, 01:33 PM	#11
Wuchak Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2007 Location: Shawnee, KS Posts: 1,093	I could never understand the logic behind the complaint about members who only show up once a year to sight in their hunting rifle. That is what they want out of the club. A place to shoot once a year and that's it. They pay for it and they are subsidizing the cost of the club for those who use it more frequently. Seems like a great deal having someone else pay for a large portion of your recreation costs. The once a year member never says, "We need to limit people's use to once a year at the club, because that's how I use it so that's how everyone should use it." Instead there is always a group who makes the club a big part of their social life. People who are really into shooting. They have an insatiable desire to try to push this on those members who don't want any or minimal part of the social aspect and are not regular shooters. They cannot comprehend that for some the club is nothing but a place to go and shoot when the mood strikes but not a place to make the center of their universe. I have been in a club where I was an active member and shot weekly and hung around the clubhouse with the other members and went to every board meeting. Now all I want is safe, nice, place to go shooting. I have no interest in participating in the running of the club, I think the club leaders are doing a fine job, nor do I have any desire to spend my free time maintaining the facility. I gladly pay dues that allow us to pay for someone to do the maintenance. So for now I pay the same dues as the guy who goes to the club 5x a week. He's using up the plywood backstops but my dues are helping to pay for the labor and materials to replace them. I help pay to keep the grass mowed, the benches that I never us in good repair, the electric, insurance, etc. I don't complain about paying the same about as active member since my less frequent use is my choice. I just wish active members would respect that choice and quit trying to push their choices on me and other less active members. ETA: To the original question. I agree with those who said they should be going after the bad eggs in your current membership rather than looking for a membership cap to solve the problem. The only reason for the cap would be if the ranges are getting unsafe or backed up due to overcrowding. Last edited by Wuchak; February 2, 2011 at 01:57 PM.

February 1, 2011, 05:30 AM	#2
kadima Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2010 Posts: 190	Limiting the number of members in a private range when the number exceeds the possibilities of the range itself sounds a sensible proposition. However, from what you posted, the "inconsiderate" members are already on board. I would suggest to take, as a first step, a survey of the usage of the range by the different members (provided you keep a record). There may be different categories of members or particular sessions for hunters to zero their sights. Rather than having existing members to second the joining request of new members you may consider to have a probation time when the new member can attend the range only when a "wise old" member can check them. Just my two cents.... K.

February 1, 2011, 07:58 PM	#5
mwar410 Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2008 Location: maine Posts: 234	That is a problem that alot of private clubs face. There are no babysitters and some ignorant people really need them. I'm not being mean but there is alot of people who were never taught about proper targets/ target placement/ ricocets/ gun handling/ ect. And then there's the totally inconsiderate ones who just don't care, ( destruction of property). Limiting the membership won't effect anything but the books, we have say 200 members and only about 50 are active users. About 20 show up to vote on how 200 membership dues are to be spent. That's pretty good on one hand, but then on the other there is alot of members you don't have a clue who they are/ or if they are members. Rules and regulations, signage, more volunteers to police the range and threatening of enforcement might help the situation, but I would doubt it will work. You'll have to catch them doing it, Know who they are, and report them to the board. I would absolutely do this myself, but couldn't expect the general membership to.

February 2, 2011, 07:43 AM	#6
SwampYankee Registration in progress Join Date: November 1, 2008 Location: I can be found on a number of other forums. Posts: 1,333	Unfortunately, it only takes one bad apple to poison the whole cart. At one of the nearby clubs, one of the members was bringing all his friends (who were not members) down to the pistol range a couple times a week. He should have known better, apparently he was the guy in charge of the pistol range! Anyway, regular members were being bumped off the range because of the lack of space. It got pretty messy. He was hollered at, resigned his post, may have even left the club. I was told that a whole bunch of new rules were implemented in the wake of this minor scandal. Courtesy and common sense go along way, too bad so many folks don't possess either.

February 2, 2011, 08:05 AM	#7
AirForceShooter Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Location: Sarasota (sort of) Florida Posts: 1,296	Ahhhh. It's the new guys. Why not figure out which guys are the real problem and kick them out. Even if they're OLD guys AFS

February 2, 2011, 12:21 PM	#10
hoytinak Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 5,721	One of the ranges here has a 250 member limit. It's setup pretty much the same with just a gate and padlock to get in. Once you're in you are supposed to sign in/out. They had a problem with people shooting benches and other stuff up so they added a couple cameras and that pretty much solved it as they were able to catch the people and kick them out. One of these days, I hope to get a membership there myself.....there's about a 2 1/2 yr waiting list.

February 2, 2011, 02:08 PM	#12
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	I think the struggles you're having are pretty typical ...especially with some members thinking the rules don't apply to them, etc. A couple of observations.... a. Having more members doesn't mean the club is more prone to accidents. Its usually the "mentality" of the members and guests on safety that causes the problems. One member on a Skeet field / loading 3 shells in a pump gun ...is the kind of thing that is seen by many people ...and then it becomes the "norm" ....( even though it violates the safety rules of Skeet - and of the club probably ). b. Having a range open to the "public" does often make it more dangerous / because you're going to get all kinds of people, all kinds of gun handling discipline ( or lack thereof ), and all kinds of shooters - that want to do their own thing. If you have a "public" range ...you might need an orientation, a waiver sheet, better rule posting, etc ....and range safety officers moving around the facility making sure everything is ok... c. Allowing members to bring guests - is probably ok / especially if they have to sign them in and will be held responsible for them. You might want to limit the number of guests a yr / a member can bring in.... d. the issue of "all members" have to work / serve on the board ...makes no sense to me. I understand the idea of spreading out the work ...but I would lean more toward giving the guys that do the work something ( a break on dues, target fees, etc ) rather than insisting everyone do something. What are you going to do with a member that has a bad back, a bad shoulder, someone who works 6 days a week .... Some guys have more spare time, live closer, etc ...and choose to participate ....and some don't ...but shutting them out of membership makes no sense to me. e. Every gun club needs money / and if you have members that don't use it - but still pay ...its actually a good thing. I don't understand the concept of limiting membership --- unless its so crowded on primary shooting days ---that you have to wait a long time to shoot. Then I can see that you would have to limit the membership / based on the size of the facility. f. If you adopt the same attitude as any business .... make sure you have contingency funds left over every year(say 20% of your annual operating budget ) in savings .....make sure you have a good liability insurance policy, make sure you have good property insurance, pay the utilities, pay someone to cut the grass, etc ....then it just makes more sense to me .... If you have to raise the range fees - then you should do that. I belong to 2 clubs now ( used to belong to 5 clubs at one time - 3 shotgun clubs, 1 rifle & handgun club, 1 handgun club) ...and I cut back. One is a shotgun only club - Trap, Skeet, Sporting / and one is an indoor range ( mostly handgun ). Life membership was about $1,000 for each ....and then I pay target fees at the shotgun club / lanes are free to me as a member at the handgun club. Both clubs are open to the public as well / but we have some areas that are reserved for members. Shotgun is all volunteers - and has all kind of issues...and politics...and is constantly hurting for money. The handgun club is professionally owned and run strictly with employees - and has lots of money. Neither club limits the number of members. At the handgun club / on busy days - members have priority for shooting lanes over non-members and members pay nothing to rent a lane. Non members pay about $ 15 to rent a lane.../ if they come in as a guest, its about $10 vs $ 15 ..... The handgun club is set up to encourage membership - tells everyone up front ...as a non-member you'll pay more / but if you only shoot twice a year ....you're better off not being a member / and they charge accordingly. The handgun club has about 12 employees that work the range / 4 full time ...and 8 or so, that are part time range safety officers. He uses a lot of retired guys as full time ...so he doesn't need to pay a lot of money in benefits. Part time guys get no benefits ... It keeps him competitive. He's very busy / and its a good safe place to shoot. I go about twice a week for 3 or so hours at a time.... I go to the shotgun club once a week for about 5 hours. I don't think there is an easy answer to this ...but you have to look at the bottom line ...and grow the revenue ...whether its with the "public" or with memberships --- or both.

February 2, 2011, 04:23 PM	#15
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	I agree ...but what works in a suburb of Seattle ....or any other big city ....may not work in medium sized cities like Athens, GA ...let alone more rural areas. Range owners / Range Management is one of the toughest things I could imagine trying to open and run in this day of latigous natures ...and general lack of responsibility I see from "members" or "customers" ...in the way they treat business facilities or recreation areas in general - make it even worse... A saturday, at a public indoor range, that rents handguns ...is one of the scariest places I can think of to hang out ....and a public shotgun range ...is a pretty close 2nd ...and it seems to be worse in metropolitan areas than in smaller towns .....and I don't know how I would ever be able to deal with the "public" ....in this day and age .../with all their "Tacky Cool guns" ... It would drive me nuts ...

February 2, 2011, 08:15 PM	#17
mwar410 Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2008 Location: maine Posts: 234	I don't know how you are going to take care of the "bullet vandalism", it's easy to say we will find out who's doing it and get rid of them. But the fact of the matter is you have to catch them. Do you confront some one you don't know (armed and already being dangerous) and ask for I.D. or a membership card ? That is if you are there while they are doing it. Cameras are pricey and I'm not sure how they would work, Do you put one on the firing line, one on the range, and one on each thing you don't want shot? Our biggest problem is improper target position, On the hundred yard range targets will be placed at 20yds, or on station 8 pad, or the center stake. We have spent alot of money trying to idiot proof the club, and it seems like you would really have to go out of your way not to shoot safely. We now have 25yd,50yd,100yd,200yd berms in place with shooting benches for all of them. (targets must be no more than 5yds from berm)

February 2, 2011, 10:02 PM	#18
SwampYankee Registration in progress Join Date: November 1, 2008 Location: I can be found on a number of other forums. Posts: 1,333	I love my club for one reason: Most members shoot skeet and trap. I don't even own a shotgun. When I head down to the rifle range on a weekday morning, I can guarantee I'll be on my own for at least an hour, sometimes all morning. The guys who show up to sight in their hunting rifles are few and far between but I'm usually leaving by the time one of them shows up

February 3, 2011, 12:38 AM	#19
SVO Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2009 Location: Texas Gulf Coast Posts: 728	Your range situation sounds a lot like where the range I belong to was several years ago. There was a big fight between raising the membership from 250 to 500, while some wanted to cut it down to 100 members. We finally started raising the membership and haven't seen any kind of upswing in range vandalism. Theory seems to be the more people using the range helps police the range better. We also have several retirees that show up on a semi regular basis to act as RO. We're now up to around 900-1,000 members and have a much better range due to the increased membership dues being re-invested into range facilities.