What are the new standards in at combat ammo?

[briandg]

Not trying to ask a stupid question. I have never owned one of the things, may never own one, and the last time I did any thinking about it the 55 grain with steel penetration core was the standard. Can anyone or several give me a short rundown on military standard, common le rounds, recommended civilian defense rounds, and twist rates for the nonstandard weight bullets?

I'd like to learn some general information. Not an encyclopedic list, with a bit of started info I can collect detailed information later.

I may in the future pick one up.

What are the consequences of buying used? This isn't like buying a pump shotgun that you field strip and examine.

[DubC-Hicks]

I believe military still uses the 62gr green tip with steel core as standard, and possibly still the M193 55gr. In LE use, my department issues Federal Tactical 55gr ballistic tip, along with 62gr green tip if we expect armor or obstacles. Many of the departments near here issue the same, with some also issuing 60gr Winchester PDX defender. For home defense, I'd recommend either the Federal 55gr ballistic tip or Winchester PDX. Both have been used to good effect.

For twist rates, it's common for 1x9 twist to be recommended for 45-60gr, 1x8 for 50-70gr, and 1x7 for 50-90gr. Too fast of twist, and the bullet jacket may disintegrate. Too slow of twist, and the bullet won't stabilize.

[raimius]

The military is mostly using 62gr M855 or M855A1. That said, I have seen a good amount of older 55gr M193 used at the range. LE and civilian defense recommendations are usually for 50-75gr tipped or bonded soft-points. The Hornady TAP line usually gets a nod at some point.

[briandg]

Back in my youth people would have scrapped kittens if they found out that the police were using such deadly weapons. .38 special lead round nose was the standard, and depending on the organization, either fear of change, fear of negative impact, or simple economics kept them from changing. It didn't really matter so much as the hp standard velocity wasn't impressive.

So the old green tip that's over twenty years old is still in use for training, and actual warfare bullets have increased in weight a bit, and retained similar construction, and police have gone from plain old lead core fin to specialized loads.


Measuring twist is as easy as taking a brushed cleaning rod and putting index marks at eight inches. In inch either way will give the twist. Eight seems optimal, no reason to go beyond either .55 or 70, either direction. It isn't a varmint gun, and 70 will do anything I would ever imagine.

Departments would only be deploying AP rounds as part of sweat, I suppose, so I guess that marked magazines of each round are carried in the van.

I suspect that our swat just carries green tip. We only recently started using a van. I can't remember many incidents of standoff but there have obviously been regularly hard entries.

I can't remember even a single police killing.

[T. O'Heir]

'AT' or 'AP'? Very different things.
No such thing as 5.56NATO prior to 1977. The 55 grain M193 was not selected as NATO Standard then either. The Belgian 62 grain SS109 round was. U.S. calls it the M855(DubC-Hicks' Green Tip stuff). Kind of odd as McNamara started jamming the .223 down NATO's throat in the mid 60's.
Cops just about everywhere use whatever is provided by the lowest bidder. Usually Ball, but every manufacturer has some kind of brand marketed at LEO.
Rifles really are not suitable for home defence. Primarily too much penetration, but if you insist, use a varmint bullet.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

For the military the current standards are:
M855A1 - a lead free, 62gr projectile with a heavier steel penetrator than M855.
Mk318 - a 62gr bonded core FMJ that shares some characteristics with Federal's Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (Navy and Marines)
Mk262 - a 77gr Sierra Matchking BTHP loaded for precision shooting

There are also large amounts of M855 (greentip) and even M193 (55gr FMJ) in use.

Amongst police agencies, there are so many new .223/5.56 rounds in use I don't think I could list them all. It seems agencies are still mind of split between fast-fragmenting, low-penetration rounds and barrier-blind rounds though.

Edit: Did you mean AP ammo? (Blacktip)

Greentip isn't armor-piercing in the traditional sense of the word. The steel penetrator in then is tiny and was just added so the 5.56 NATO round could penetrate the old steel helmets at 600yds. Greentip will actually sometimes fail to penetrate AR500 that 55gr lead FMJ will penetrate at close ranges. AFAIK, M995 is still the only 5.56 AP round.

[salt and battery]

dubc-hicks hows the war going in your area?

[SamNavy]

Wikipedia breaks it down in a 5 minute read, explains everything about the 5.56 up to current military production:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO

[bfoosh006]

IMHO... this link can show you a LOT about currently designed ammo.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Sel..._FAQ/index.htm

And this one goes into GREAT detail... ( Slow internet ? ... this is a big file.. )

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/


And..... ALL sorts of info....

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/50...Forum_FAQ.html


It is a lot of info... but those links can answer dang near all questions.

If you have a specific round or terminal performance reason... ask, we will try to help.


Frankly... if your SWAT team still uses 62gr Green Tip... I would be surprised.

That bullet design is over 30 years old... there have been numerous improvements to .223 / 5.56 ammo over the years.

[marine6680]

There has been a lot of bullet development in the past several years that has lead to a wide variety of performances. While a lot of similar things existed before, it's definitely gotten more refined.

From heavy rounds with good long range ability, to quick fragmentation light weight stuff. You can also have rounds that mushroom very well, and are quite capable of taking deer sized game effectively.

A lot of development has went into improving military rounds while attempting to conform to modern convention and agreements in place.

The 77gr and 69gr HPBT stuff currently in use by DMs and SF has gotten a lot of praise by troops for its increased accuracy and improved lethality. It's just not approved for general issue use.

So something else was needed to replace the 855... With the 855A1 and Mk318 considered very good replacement. By bringing back much of the terminal performance of the old 1 in 12 twist 55gr days, while maintaining the good barrier performance of 855. (Or better)

From my reading I think the 318 would be the better way to go, but I think the push is for the 855a1 to be the standard for all branches.

[briandg]

At was a typo.That's all it was.

I don't intend to buy one for home defense, anyway.

[briandg]

Sam, I have no idea why i didn't think of wikipedia first.

I have no idea why the army decided to go lead free, it's plain stupid. Any range is like any other military site involving weaponry or other activities over the course of fifty years is already over and done, and the use of lead in a battle zone? gimme a break, what is the point of worrying about lead scattered around a battlezone?

Unless the lead free rounds offer a decided improvement, unless the ground is untainted, there is no purpose at all.

A few years ago, here at the retired fort crowder site, a company was putting in a chicken farm and hit tear gas canisters. Once in a while real weaopons show up. Is using lead free ammo going to change anything there?

[DubC-Hicks]

salt and battery, not sure what you mean there?

[briandg]

Are and ate are not quite the same either.