ATF Project Gunrunner - Page 57

hogdogs · October 17, 2011, 07:49 PM

Quote:

their use against US LEO would just be the thing they are looking for.

Absolutely not and hee is why... I am sure you will agree when you read this...
I ain't real bright but here is what I see...
All guns confiscated in mexico can have their numbers checked by The USA at least if not Mexico too.

The guns they give us to check are predominately American made... But they lack what should be a vast majority of com-bloc and chi-com gear due to all of their illegal import routes.

Now if F&F was intended to cement thes numbers with guns FROM dealers NEAR the border, they get to go after the 2A rights... But they want the needed time to have such a number of guns walked and then the time it takes to be used and discarded at crimes... IN MEXICO... If one is used in a crime in america, the scrutiny of tracing the gun would cause this inevitable discovery of their involvement in illicit behavior.

If no Terry shooting, no discovery... yet... In another year or so, we would have a new look at guns confiscated IN mexico BY mexican authorities used in crimes there... All of a sudden it looks like a super spike in trafficking of arms from the USA (surprise surprise).. Now the reason for gun control here is presented...

Brent

C0untZer0 · October 17, 2011, 08:58 PM

I think Brent is right - Mexico provided just the right amount of haziness to the situation.

It was kind of a black hole of information. Now matter how many Mexicans were killed - the only information that would have come streaming out of Mexico is that American guns were showing up at horrific crime scenes in huge numbers. I think it would have been impossible to get further visibility into that.

Tailor made for using the information as fuel to both back up the Presidents original erroneous statements - and make the case for stricter gun control.

But, when agent Terry was shot and killed - the dynamics changed. That was the tipping point for BATFE agents that had been frustrated with an operation that didn't seem to make sense to them anyway. Now BATFE agents who had been sounding the alarm on the dangers of the plan were going to make sure that it wasn't swept under the carpet - they blew the whistle. And they knew that the firearms could be traced.

Totally different from just a bunch of foreign drug gangs shooting each other in another country.

Since it happend on our side of the border - the information could be found, exposed and reported on.

publius42 · October 18, 2011, 10:03 AM

Hillary knew, and was careful to avoid knowing too much, says the Sipsey Street Irregulars blog.

C0untZer0 · October 18, 2011, 01:53 PM

When someone becomes a BATFE agent, do they have to swear to uphold the constitution?

**Tom Servo** · October 18, 2011, 02:07 PM

Quote:

When someone becomes a BATFE agent, do they have to swear to uphold the constitution?

They do. I know a few, and the vast majority take that oath very seriously. They're just as outraged by this as we are.

Hardcase · October 18, 2011, 02:18 PM

Quote:

When someone becomes a BATFE agent, do they have to swear to uphold the constitution?

Every federal employee is required to sign an appointment affidavit, which is the oath of office. It's the oath that you're thinking about and, yes, in that affidavit, the employee pledges to uphold the constitution.

5 USC 3331

Hardcase · October 18, 2011, 04:21 PM

The US Senate just unanimously passed an amendment to HR2112 prohibiting the funding of gunwalking operations. It's Amendment 775 to Amendment 738 of HR2112.

Horses are gone, barn doors are closed, but it's something.

EDIT: Haven't seen a story on the amendment's passage, but here's one on what was proposed.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...est=latestnews

gc70 · October 18, 2011, 06:28 PM

Here is the Senate vote.

**Aguila Blanca** · October 18, 2011, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

They do. I know a few, and the vast majority take that oath very seriously. They're just as outraged by this as we are.

Tom, I won't dispute that they are upset over this, but I do not accept that the "vast majority" take the oath very seriously. If the vast majority took the oath even half seriously, we would not be seeing shoe laces being classified as machine guns or FFLs being harassed out of business because of things as nit-picky as spelling and punctuation errors on 4473s.

C0untZer0 · October 19, 2011, 12:35 PM

A federal law to de-fund programs that transfer weapons to drug cartels.

Is there a law for the U.S. Marshalls that de-fund programs that let criminals walk right out of custody?

Maybe we need another funding law to go along with this that the Secret Service can't pass out bags of counterfeit money to mobsters?

The DEA then needs a law to defund programs that give cocaine to street pushers, but don’t keep track of what was given to who or when.

Maybe they should just pass a law that defunds any attempt to repeat a program that was previously proven to be a failure?

Maybe they should just pass a law that defunds programs that are stupid?

NWPilgrim · October 19, 2011, 01:06 PM

Good point, Count! How about a new law to defund any criminal activity by a federal agency?

C0untZer0 · October 19, 2011, 01:18 PM

^ No government funding for criminal activity is probably a good idea.

brickeyee · October 19, 2011, 01:38 PM

Quote:

It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress.

Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar, Mark Twain

Quote:

It is the foreign element that commits our crimes. There is no native criminal class except Congress.

More Maxims of Mark, Johnson, 1927, Mark Twain

Quote:

Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.

Mark Twain, a Biography

Quote:

All Congresses and Parliaments have a kindly feeling for idiots, and a compassion for them, on account of personal experience and heredity.

Mark Twain's Autobiography; also in Mark Twain in Eruption

Not a lot new under the sun with Incongruous Assembled

2damnold4this · October 19, 2011, 04:24 PM

The DoJ seems to be trying to use the Bush era operation Wide Receiver to try and deflect attention from their mistakes.

**Tom Servo** · October 19, 2011, 07:56 PM

Quote:

If the vast majority took the oath even half seriously, we would not be seeing shoe laces being classified as machine guns or FFLs being harassed out of business because of things as nit-picky as spelling and punctuation errors on 4473s.

Yes we would. Those policy decisions aren't made on the ground; they're made by bureaucrats, and those decisions make life even harder on agents in the field.

C0untZer0 · October 19, 2011, 10:57 PM

Well Bill Newell is a bald faced liar.

I don't know how you can count yourself among the "good guys" and lie before congress.

That guy is in the wrong line of work.

CowTowner · October 20, 2011, 06:44 AM

Quote:

That guy is in the wrong line of work.

Politics perhaps?

I'm seriously hoping that all the documents Rep. Issa has demanded show that Mr. Newell ain't the only one with that distinction.

**44 AMP** · October 20, 2011, 09:09 PM

heard on the radio today, Obama, visiting a school, was interviewed and asked about Fast & Furious. Answered he heard about it from the press.

Press report about the interview covered Obama's preferences/knowledge of children's books.

zxcvbob · October 20, 2011, 09:16 PM

I suspect Issa already has copies of all the documents he has demanded, and the subpoena is a perjury trap.

scpapa · October 21, 2011, 05:47 AM

^^^^^^ I believe this is correct. I think Issa is playing hardball and Holder isn't aware of it, yet.

Rick

C0untZer0 · October 21, 2011, 08:29 AM

I like to go to Brady's website every so often.

I can't stay there too long, I get too agitated, but I did click around to try to find something about Fast and Furious.

They're pretty freaked out about that House reciprocity bill, but there's nothing about F&F.

I guess it's not surprising, but if they were really concerned about gun violence you'd think it would be in big bold letters on their site.

In a way they are symbolic of whatever brain trust dreamed F&F up in the first place. What is the ideology they are supposedly adhering to? Trying to reduce gun violence in this country by reducing the amount of guns and severly restricting their use? SOooo, they flood the country with guns, giving them to criminals no less, getting a border patrol agent killed, escalating violence on the border to insane levels and endangering numerous law enforcement officers.

Didn't they create exactly what they supposedly are working to prevent?

Just political hacks.

Whenever the ends justify the means - it's a very slippery slope into immorality.

KyJim · October 21, 2011, 04:46 PM

Quote:

I heard on the radio today, Obama, visiting a school, was interviewed and asked about Fast & Furious. Answered he heard about it from the press.

It's a crying shame when children ask tougher questions than most of the press.

jimpeel · October 21, 2011, 11:10 PM

The question was asked by Jake Tapper of ABC as I recall.

KyJim · October 22, 2011, 12:20 AM

Quote:

The question was asked by Jake Tapper of ABC as I recall.

LOL! Shows how jaundiced I am about the mainstream press, I guess.

BPowderkeg · October 25, 2011, 09:58 AM

the one thing i noticed about his oath, is the person does NOT have to swear allegiance to the POTUS. thank you Mr.Hardcase for posting that URL.

“I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”

October 18, 2011, 04:21 PM	#1407
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	The US Senate just unanimously passed an amendment to HR2112 prohibiting the funding of gunwalking operations. It's Amendment 775 to Amendment 738 of HR2112. Horses are gone, barn doors are closed, but it's something. EDIT: Haven't seen a story on the amendment's passage, but here's one on what was proposed. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...est=latestnews __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

October 19, 2011, 01:06 PM	#1411
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,346	Good point, Count! How about a new law to defund any criminal activity by a federal agency? __________________ "The ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone. ... The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition." - James Madison

October 20, 2011, 09:09 PM	#1418
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	heard on the radio today, Obama, visiting a school, was interviewed and asked about Fast & Furious. Answered he heard about it from the press. Press report about the interview covered Obama's preferences/knowledge of children's books. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

October 20, 2011, 09:16 PM	#1419
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	I suspect Issa already has copies of all the documents he has demanded, and the subpoena is a perjury trap. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

October 21, 2011, 11:10 PM	#1423
jimpeel Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: Longmont, CO, USA Posts: 4,530	The question was asked by Jake Tapper of ABC as I recall. __________________ Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey

October 17, 2011, 08:58 PM	#1402
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	I think Brent is right - Mexico provided just the right amount of haziness to the situation. It was kind of a black hole of information. Now matter how many Mexicans were killed - the only information that would have come streaming out of Mexico is that American guns were showing up at horrific crime scenes in huge numbers. I think it would have been impossible to get further visibility into that. Tailor made for using the information as fuel to both back up the Presidents original erroneous statements - and make the case for stricter gun control. But, when agent Terry was shot and killed - the dynamics changed. That was the tipping point for BATFE agents that had been frustrated with an operation that didn't seem to make sense to them anyway. Now BATFE agents who had been sounding the alarm on the dangers of the plan were going to make sure that it wasn't swept under the carpet - they blew the whistle. And they knew that the firearms could be traced. Totally different from just a bunch of foreign drug gangs shooting each other in another country. Since it happend on our side of the border - the information could be found, exposed and reported on.

October 18, 2011, 10:03 AM	#1403
publius42 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2002 Posts: 1,936	Hillary knew, and was careful to avoid knowing too much, says the Sipsey Street Irregulars blog.

October 18, 2011, 01:53 PM	#1404
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	When someone becomes a BATFE agent, do they have to swear to uphold the constitution?

October 18, 2011, 06:28 PM	#1408
gc70 Senior Member Join Date: May 24, 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,903	Here is the Senate vote.

October 19, 2011, 12:35 PM	#1410
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	A federal law to de-fund programs that transfer weapons to drug cartels. Is there a law for the U.S. Marshalls that de-fund programs that let criminals walk right out of custody? Maybe we need another funding law to go along with this that the Secret Service can't pass out bags of counterfeit money to mobsters? The DEA then needs a law to defund programs that give cocaine to street pushers, but don’t keep track of what was given to who or when. Maybe they should just pass a law that defunds any attempt to repeat a program that was previously proven to be a failure? Maybe they should just pass a law that defunds programs that are stupid?

October 19, 2011, 01:18 PM	#1412
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	^ No government funding for criminal activity is probably a good idea.

October 19, 2011, 04:24 PM	#1414
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 2,526	The DoJ seems to be trying to use the Bush era operation Wide Receiver to try and deflect attention from their mistakes.

October 19, 2011, 10:57 PM	#1416
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Well Bill Newell is a bald faced liar. I don't know how you can count yourself among the "good guys" and lie before congress. That guy is in the wrong line of work.

October 21, 2011, 05:47 AM	#1420
scpapa Member Join Date: December 23, 2007 Location: Central South Carolina Posts: 89	^^^^^^ I believe this is correct. I think Issa is playing hardball and Holder isn't aware of it, yet. Rick

October 21, 2011, 08:29 AM	#1421
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	I like to go to Brady's website every so often. I can't stay there too long, I get too agitated, but I did click around to try to find something about Fast and Furious. They're pretty freaked out about that House reciprocity bill, but there's nothing about F&F. I guess it's not surprising, but if they were really concerned about gun violence you'd think it would be in big bold letters on their site. In a way they are symbolic of whatever brain trust dreamed F&F up in the first place. What is the ideology they are supposedly adhering to? Trying to reduce gun violence in this country by reducing the amount of guns and severly restricting their use? SOooo, they flood the country with guns, giving them to criminals no less, getting a border patrol agent killed, escalating violence on the border to insane levels and endangering numerous law enforcement officers. Didn't they create exactly what they supposedly are working to prevent? Just political hacks. Whenever the ends justify the means - it's a very slippery slope into immorality.

October 25, 2011, 09:58 AM	#1425
BPowderkeg Junior member Join Date: September 27, 2011 Posts: 382	the one thing i noticed about his oath, is the person does NOT have to swear allegiance to the POTUS. thank you Mr.Hardcase for posting that URL. “I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”