45-70 powder, load data

[Malibru]

Hi All, new to the forum but been reloading since good ole' Dad trusted me with a Lyman master kit complete with original T-mag press (you know, the kind with the turret that wobbled back and forth for oh-so-poor consistency). I was 13 at the time and only had a lyman book and some winchester recipe books to go by, but managed to keep things from blowing up. Still addicted to this day and have moved on to a Dillon RL550B.

I recently started loading .45-70 for my Marlin (Remlin!) lever gun. Without stirring up the "where are the components?" debate, I am short on powder. I did pick up some H414/Win760. I realize it's a slow burner, but does anyone have a recipe or am I looking at trouble with this powder and caliber? I am using some 405gr lead bullets from Missouri Bullet. I have loaded with some H4895 to good results, but my supply is just about exhausted and I need it for other calibers too.

I realize that the H414 is not ideal but I'm sure many of you have had to improvise and find suitable loads for components you are able to find. Thank you in advance for any suggestions and I appreciate being able to join the discussions!

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Malibru,

Don't know if your familiar with the magazine like publication put out by Hodgdon or not. It is usually found in the magazine section of stores if it is available in that location.

Looking in my 2010 issue under the headings of 45/70, Trapdoors, Marlins and modern rifles, H414 is simply not listed.

Seems as though Hodgdon lists their powders for a given cartridge even if they are only marginally usable and the H414 is not listed for the 45/70

Sorry!

Looking at the info on my container of H414, it lists cartridges from the 22/250 up to the .338, so I fear your out of luck.

Crusty Deary Ol'coot

[Malibru]

Ol' Coot,
Thanks for the reply. I am afraid that is the case, and I will just have to reserve some other powder for the task. Agreed that Hodgdon is a bit optimistic with the number of cartridges serviceable with each of it's powders. I find that to be true with some other powders as well.

I guess I will have to keep on hoping for the other powders to come back to shelves....

Again thank you and if anyone else has thoughts please feel free to lend advice!

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

I was at a sporting goods out let in Lewiston, Idaho 2 or 3 weeks ago, and they had a good supply of primers and from the looks of their powder room, it looked like a pretty fair supply there also.

I hope this means things are working back towards normal. I HOPE!!!!!!!!!!

CDOC

[SHR970]

You could use Win 748 with 400 gr. bullets but 760 is way too slow to use with a straight wall cartridge like 45-70. You won't see it used with 458 WM for that matter.

You will need to find a more suitable powder or you'll be VERY disappointed with the results.

[Malibru]

Roger that, I was afraid that this would be the case. I have precious few grains of W748 left, but I may use some to see what the 405's chrony at. Again thanks to all!

[SHR970]

Powder Valley shows 1 pounders of IMR SR-4759 in stock. There is plenty of data for this powder and 405 gr. cast lead. We can supply you with data from Lyman 49 and other sources. This powder has been used in that application for decades. Just because Hodgdon Reloading Data Center doesn't list it does not mean that it isn't appropriate.

[Malibru]

SHR970,
This is why it is great to be part of the forum. A powder I never would have looked at based strictly upon load date from H/IMR/WIN etc. Thanks so much for the tip. I'm guessing this stuff will not be the best to meter, but since I'm loading small quantity I could easily throw charges and weigh them up individually. Research is showing that this performs or is similar to IMR4227? I now see that Speer lists some data for 400gr bullets with SR4759.

From what I see so far, perhaps in the 25-28 grain range for the 405gr bullet?

Thanks so much for the shared knowledge, always happy to learn!

[mehavey]

IMR(SR)4759
IMR3031
IMR4198
IMR4985
VARGET
H332
ReLoader-7
Accurate 5744

...are ALL classic 45-70 powders, from low/original BP loads to El Stompo Grande.

[SHR970]

From what I see so far, perhaps in the 25-28 grain range for the 405gr bullet?

With 1:20 you can go 29.5 gr. in a Remlin but essentially your range is well within norm. Even an Alaska Brownie won't be happy being on the other end of the starting load.

It might meter like corn flakes but it works......has worked......will do the job you need it to.....and is AVAILABLE.

[Deja vu]

One of my Favorite loads is a Wooleigh 550 grain bullet over 2400 powder. Its a slow and heavy bullet that is guaranteed to go through any animal in north america lengthwise. Where did I get the idea for 2400? I got it from an old Hornady reloading manual that has there 500 grain round nose in a 45-70

As far as where to get powders. I go to the Boise area firt thing as store are opening up and several times a week find powders that I can use. Once I have a good stock built up I can wait till I make the boise run again.

[BumbleBug]

I don't know what all you shoot with your .45-70, but I'd like to comment that I have had excellent luck with Unique for light cast bullet loads. By "light" I mean 1200 fps, low recoil & good accuracy. Lyman reloading handbooks lists Unique with cast bullet loads all the way up to 420gr.

BTW,FWIW: My power house load is a 300gr Rem HP in front of a dose of IMR-4198.

Good luck on your powder quest.

...bug

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Malibru.

One thing you will need to think through has just popped up on tis thread.

Load or loads for your rifle --------

Bumblebug refers to the possibility of multiple loads for his rifle, while I prefer to optimize a single load for a given rifle and use it for everything.

Being the Ol'Coot that I am, I think it is poor practice to have numerous loads for a given rifle because of the potential of thinking the wrong data when it counts and because of that, making a poor shot.

When your load is a constant in a given firearm there is never a need for mental gymnastics as the piece shoots and hits the same today as it did last week, 6 months ago or October 10, the opening of the general rifle season last year.

Some folk will write on the forums about such and such caliber/cartridge being too big and overly destructive on game when in fact it is many times not the cartridge causing much of the meat loss, but rather poor bullet choice when using too light a bullet or one of low integrity.

So, back to the one load for one gun situation, where I prefer to many times use a bullet which is possibly a bit on the heavy side for caliber, but one which has a proven high level of integrity.

My one go to and proven load for my 45/70 is a 465gr Wide Flat Nose (WFN) cast at 1650fps. It puts deer and elk down in fine fashion and gets er done for any other shooting I may wish to do with that rifle.

Doesn't kick me into next week and casting, I can afford to shoot the same bullet for every thing.

Just an Ol'Coots way of looking at the picture, but one which has proven out for many years.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Gary L. Griffiths]

My favorite powder for .45-70 is Varget. With a 405-gr cast bullet, Hodgdon lists 40 grs for 1392 fps @ 15,600 CUP to a maximum of 50 grs for 1718 fps @ 20,900 CUP. Of course, I'm having to keep the loads down so they don't do an instant-disassemble on my two old Trapdoors! I've settled on 44-45 grs of Varget as an excellent Trapdoor load.

Of course, with a modern rifle you won't be anywhere near as constrained, but one thing I did notice: Varget gives about the highest velocities for the least pressure of any IMR or Hodgdon powder listed in their loading tables.

[Malibru]

Gary, CDOC, Bumblebug, Deja Vu, SHR970, Mehavey,
Thank you all again, for the time it takes to both post, and check your load data etc. Ahhh the illusive Varget! Still no luck finding any around these parts (Taxachusetts). But I placed a PV order last night for some sR4759 and a few others in stock (well, you have to spread that hazmat fee across enough to make it worth while, right? Hehehe).

My plan for now is to try a few loads, shoot em' through the chrony and find the "one" load that I like the best. I am in agreement with CDOC on this one. I do like to find my favorite load for a given caliber, and tend to stick with it. Of course like many now I have had to spread my wings and find new powders to use.

I picked up the Remlin the same day it was traded in at a local store, had been searching for a while for the stainless model with six shot tube and large lever loop. Went in looking at a Vaquero and found the rifle before the previous owner even left. So the dealer let us work our own deal, and only took his usual transfer fee (I thought this was fair as he would have added some$$ to the price otherwise). Everyone was happy, and the first owner got a fair price.

Once I establish the load I like, this rifle is going to live in the "ready" state as we have had some bear sightings in the yard. I am in a wooded area and this spring the neighbor came running as a bear had clawed open her dog. Well since my two little ones and hers play in the yards all summer I've been a bit more alert to what's been walking around out there. The other neighbor (a former city dweller) learned not to leave his trash barrels out.

Not sure if the 405 will be the ideal bullet (I'm using Missouri Bullet). May have to investigate those 465's or the 550 woodleigh(sp?). I just loaded up 20 rounds with H4895 but I have to save what's left for the Garand. I'll give that a shot but will then experiment with the SR4759.

SHR970 "Meter like corn flakes". Love that line!
Thanks again to everyone, will report back when I find some time to let the lead fly!

[Gary L. Griffiths]

Malibru,

I can guarantee you that a 405-gr lead slug from your .45-70 at even Trapdoor velocities will ruin the day of any blackie that intrudes on your territory. Yeah, I know about the powder situation. Just scored 2 (count 'em) 2 8-lb cannisters of AR-Comp, so I can reserve my Varget for my heavy .308 and Trapdoor-friendly .45-70 loads!

[totaldla]

The hard part about loading 45-70 for the Marlin Levergun is to find a load, quit fiddling, and shoot the thing.

I run 405gr Rem JSPs at 1800fps. I've used most of the powders mehavey listed but H4198 is my favorite.

Cast bullets are hole drillers. The Rem 405gr JSP expands to .9" and penetrates 24" in bull Elk. Everything will kill a black bear.

If you don't mind powder zombies, the too slow powders will give you trap door velocities. But if you wanna go fast, you've got to use the faster powders (H322, H4198, 3031, Re7).

Have fun!

[Gunfixr]

I just used to load 54 gr of 3031 under a 300 gr Jhp, and call it good. The book stopped at 58 gr, so you're not near max. Stomped the he'll out of everything, though, including you.

[458winshooter]

Varget,RL-7 or IMR-4198 are all that I can recommend

[William T. Watts]

Started with IMR3031 and decided it was a tad slow, switched to IMR4198 and have been happy with the switch.. I will use 3031 if 4198 isn't available but prefer the faster powder. William

[chiefr]

One hint if you are not aware if when loading for your marlin is to watch your OALs. 2.550 is the max. I keep mine at exactly 2.5.

Have seen people try to use bullets heavier than 405s and they will not chamber if OAL is over 2.550 and when you swing the lever forward, the cart drops to the bottom of the chamber rendering rifle useless. You will have to remove the lever to get the bullet out. Don't ask me how I know this.

I also shoot heavies in trapdoors and other single-shots. The COL can be much longer than 2.5. I always use BP in the trapdoors.

[Malibru]

Cheifr, I did load to OAL of 2.500". Finally did get around to shooting 20 rounds, 405 grain bullet backed by H4895. Wowwwww! Certainly a hoot to shoot. 53 grains gave me an average of 1800 fps. 50 grains was more around 1725-1750fps. But as others suggested I will be trying some other powders too, including SR4759, just showed up from Fedex today. Cannot wait to load some more and let the lead fly! The Marlin will be one heck of a brush gun!

[chiefr]

4895 is actually the best power wise for your Marlin with the 405gr. I have good results as well.
My favorite loads with the 405 gr is with 3031. My loads are around 1700fps.
3031 has been scarce, I recently found & bought 3lbs.

Still remember my last range session where I fired 50 rounds. A great deal of power in a light rifle.
The 1895 is a great hunting rifle. Everything I have hit with it providing I did my part went down fast and the bullet exited. Several years ago a friend of mine used his and 405s on a buffalo hunt and he said the bullet went completely through as well.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Malibru,

If you mean "brush gun" because the rifle is short and light, fine I understand completely.

However, if you mean "brush gun" because your understanding is that the big and heavy bullet will penetrate brush or other cover between you and the target, forget it!!!!!

Yep, I been there and tried that and the cover, some light field grass was so light, never would I have expected a 465gr Cast to be deflected but it happened and I watched the critter run away untouched.

Range under 100yds, shot taken from a solid prone and rested position.

Other folk have done more controlled tests and it is well proven that there is simply no reliable way to shoot through cover/brush/grass and have the bullet arrive at the point of aim.

Any time it may happen simply means the bullet found a clear path and avoided any of the obstructions.

Enjoy that 45/70, great meat getter with the proper bullet.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Malibru]

CDoc, well my meaning of brush gun was more along the lines of "handy in the woods" gun. That rifle is solid and stainless, I mounted it in my ranger and it can go with me out into the woods when I'm scrounging firewood, skidding logs etc. Should withstand the elements well, and take care of anything that comes along!