Interesting notion from another thread, which bears some examination

[44 AMP]

There is no magic bullet.

There is no single caliber, bullet or load that will be the best possible under all situations.

Even loads that usually don't penetrate and exit can do so under the right conditions. It isn't until you get up to varmint rifle speeds and bullet construction that you can be nearly completely assured of the bullet not exiting essentially intact.

Any time there are people behind your target there is a risk. What matters is your assessment of the risk to them, vs the risk to you.

Why is it so many seem obsessed with the risk of overpenetration and never seem to mention the risk of a miss, which, to me, seems to happen more often?

[ClydeFrog]

I think a handgun round with a higher KE level is ideal because the bullet or bullet fragments/sections will "hit" or "strike" human flesh hard.
The possible shock(for lack of a better term) or trauma that a hit would cause may, may cause a violent subject to stop(end any violent actions).
This is not a guarantee with any handgun round(caliber) nor any SMG or rifle.

Author & firearm tactics trainer; Massad Ayoob, www.MassadAyoobgroup.com , wrote a recent gun press article about a female LE officer who shot a violent felon. The wounded bad guy, lunged at the police officer, killed her, then died from his gunshot wounds.

As noted, there are no magic bullets. The new RIP 9x19mm loads; www.G2rip.com , is a good example. It's impressive but actual shootings will need to show how these 9mm rounds perform.

[Venom1956]

Tinner666

Over penetration happens. ill take a nice HP that does its job and exits out the back of your target over one that doesn't anyday. Sometimes it comes down to the hard choice. If two jhp bullets create an equal wound channel except one is 12" or one that goes all the way through the target ill take that one.

No offense but I am not a law officer (don't know if you are) and personally would not involved my wife nor myself with a 2 officer arrest ever thats not the reason I carry let LEOs handle that business. If I draw my weapon it will be to defend my or my familys lives. I'll take the most effective round.

[Tinner666]

Most incidents I've been involved in were in the city. In the incident cited, there were only the six of us. We said we've stay and provide BU if something went wrong. LEO's are not invincible. It drew an unruly crowd. At the beginning, 'it seemed like a good idea at the time', then it went to 'in for a penny, in for the dollar'.

Things just happen, i guess.

See this one? Busy street, heavy traffic, pedestrians, etc. It went well, but over penetration can be bad, so I'm stuck with hard choices.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=525045

We're never able to pick and choose bad things happen.

BTW, I wasn't really directing anything at you. You weren't the only one, I just used your quote.

[Venom1956]

Na its fine. no harm here, just replying. I wouldn't presume to second guess your actions just state mine.

At the beginning, 'it seemed like a good idea at the time', then it went to 'in for a penny, in for the dollar'.

I've had my fair share of these. Perhaps why I am a bit wary.

[Tinner666]

No LEO. Some background. I've always been proactive reporting B&E's, robberies, drug dealings, etc.
I've been in Army, done security work and have a business in the 'little Beirut' part of Richmond for over 25 years. I feel we need to assist the LEO's as much as possible within reason and we've helped often. I've had LEO's bang on my house in the middle of the night asking for BU.
One time, we came up on a B&E and it took 10 minutes for an LEO to arrive. I told dispatch we'd stay a block away where we had a good view to take pix. LEO arrived and radio said BU was 20 minutes away. I pulled up and offered to assist, at least from the doorway. He told dispatch he was going in and I was his BU. I got nervous when 5-6 squads pulled up around me, since I was behind him and in SUL. I relaxed my position and at least two said thans as they passed me. Perps made it out the back.

I've been in similar situations a few times a year since opening my business there.

[Webleymkv]

The thing about overpenetration is that its extremely difficult, if not impossible, to completely eliminate as a possibility through caliber/bullet selection. Even if one picks a cartridge/bullet combination which routinely delivers the relatively shallow penetration depth of only 8-10", that could still be a through-and-through shot if the person on the receiving end is hit in the periphery or is just of very slight build.

Also, most of the less penetrative cartridge/bullet combinations use rather light-for-caliber bullets which are often more easily deflected when they encounter hard objects like auto glass or bone. With a very light bullet, if overpenetration does occur there is a higher likelihood that the bullet's trajectory will change and it won't overpentrate in a straight line. Medium-to-heavy for caliber bullets at least usually penetrate in a straight line and thus if/when they overpenetrate, while still undesirable, it will at least be somewhat more predictable.

Personally, I think that overpenetration is an issue better addressed by tactics than ammunition. If your bullet is heavy enough to penetrate in a straight line, something as simple as taking a step to the side or taking a knee can often change the trajectory of the bullet enough to mitigate the risk to bystanders. Of course, the most important thing is to be conscious of the risk to bystanders and thus, as Tinner666 did, very carefully consider whether or not you absolutely have to shoot at all.

[481]

Good thread, ZT.

[Oysterboy]

Don't forget the foot or feet.

[cougar gt-e]

A lot of this discussion reminds me of the story from statistics training about the man on his hands and knees under a street light at night. A passerby asks what he's doing, and is told he lost his keys. So he helps for a bit, finds nothing and asks where he was when he lost them. The guy answers, over there, across the street, in the alley by the dumpster. Outraged, the passerby asks why the heck he's looking across the street? The guy answers, " because it's clean, dry and has good light over here".

We tend to focus on analyzing things based on easy data (like kinetic energy, caliber, bullet weight) when finding the "true" answer involves lots more hard, dirty, messy work. Yes, those things are important and some correlations can be made...but with often unpredictable results as evidenced by stories of minor wounds instantly stopping one person where a major wound fails. Those unpredictable results are probably due to factors unaccounted for, some minor and obscure, others major and obvious.

I sure don't know the aswers, heck I don't even know the most of the questions! And like most, I find myself under the clean, dry, bright street light ...

Evidence shows that a quality jhp round in caliber 9mm on up will perform well enough in nearly all cases when placed accurately. But, wider, heavier, faster is also typically better ... but not always. I use .40 over 9mm because it's better ...at least it looks better under this street light ...

[Unlicensed Dremel]

When it's all said and done, I think I'll trust the FBI tests, and their focus on (a) penetration, and (b) expansion. Which I think is the correct focus.

Now look at the results: the difference between the "big 3" or "big 4" is so tiny as to negligible. I mean, with the right bullet choice, you get equal penetration with 9x19 as you do the others, but only give up what? approx. .69 average expansion as compared to what? ...approx. .72 with the average .45 acp, or something ridiculously-small like that - correct? We're talking 3/100ths of inch difference... Less than 1/3rd of 1/10th of 1". Just doesn't matter.

Make mine a nine. I'll gladly take the nearly instant follow-ups and higher capacity. And much cheaper ammo (meaning more practice). It would be very different if it was shown that the 9x19 penetrated less or had a statistically-significant reduced diameter at the key point in time of measurement, which is after expansion.

I mean, heck, a 9x19 bullet is only .09 - 9/100ths of an inch less to begin with - before expansion (.36 vs. 45), less than 1/10th of an inch. But even if you think that that is significant, it's even less AFTER expansion - as I say, if I recall correctly, averages more like .03 or so when comparing expanded 9x19s with expanded .45s - only 1/3rd of the starting difference (.03 vs. .09), which was arguably negligible to start with. And if I recall correctly, the typical 147 9mm penetrates even more than the typical 155 .40 or 230 .45.

I may be mis-remembering a bit.... but seems like in end, they're all so close as to be identical as a practical matter in the two measures that the FBI thinks counts - penetration and expansion.... depending on ammo/bullet of course, which is why you should pick the bullet that looks the best for you from their tests if you're keen on maximizing every conceivable gunfight advantage.

[Nanuk]

Carry the most powerful gun you can conceal and shoot well. For me currently that is my 44 magnum loaded with 185 Grain LSWCHP's.

[ATN082268]

Originally Posted by Unlicensed Dremel

When it's all said and done, I think I'll trust the FBI tests, and their focus on (a) penetration, and (b) expansion. Which I think is the correct focus.

Now look at the results: the difference between the "big 3" or "big 4" is so tiny as to negligible.

If the stopping power between a .38 and a .44 Magnum handgun, for example, is negligible, would you put that to the test and carry a .38 handgun to handle Grizzly Bear encounters?

[Nanuk]

You would be much better off practicing so that more shots hit than trying to find the magic bullet.

[JohnKSa]

If the stopping power between a .38 and a .44 Magnum handgun, for example, is negligible, would you put that to the test and carry a .38 handgun to handle Grizzly Bear encounters?

The big 3 or 4 is the category that includes 9mm, .357SIG, .40S&W, .45ACP, etc. It might include the .38special at the bottom end depending on who's opining at the moment.

It most definitely does not include the magnum hunting calibers such as the .44Mag.

When you compare the terminal performance of handguns from completely different performance classes--like a service pistol caliber with a magnum hunting caliber, or a service pistol caliber with a pocket pistol caliber--then you can certainly note terminal performance differences. Within a given performance class, not so much.

[Webleymkv]

Originally posted by JohnKSa
When you compare the terminal performance of handguns from completely different performance classes--like a service pistol caliber with a magnum hunting caliber, or a service pistol caliber with a pocket pistol caliber--then you can certainly note terminal performance differences. Within a given performance class, not so much.

While I agree with this for the most part, it is worthy of mention that sometimes the line between performance classes can be a bit blurred. For example, while small calibers like .25 Auto and .32 Auto obviously fit best in the pocket pistol class, .380 ACP and standard pressure .38 Special straddle the line somewhat. While many, if not most of the JHP loadings in those calibers give performance which is generally deemed less than optimum (they cannot both expand reliably and penetrate to 12" or more) there are a few loadings which can meet the minimum performance standards for a service-class cartridge.

Likewise, on the other end of the spectrum, .357 Magnum and 10mm Auto seem to straddle the line between service-class and magnum-class cartridges as some loadings behave much like the "big 3/4" while others behave very differently such as expanding reliably while penetrating very deeply (16+") or expanding very violently (often to the point of fragmentation) while still penetrating 12" or more.

As far as the original comparison goes (.38 Special vs. .44 Magnum) that is a clear-cut difference as .44 Magnum sits squarely in the magnum-class since only it's very lightest loadings (basically .44 Specials in Magnum cases) behave even remotely like service-class cartridges.

[JohnKSa]

...it is worthy of mention that sometimes the line between performance classes can be a bit blurred.

That is absolutely correct.

I generally draw the line between the pocket pistols and the service pistols based on which calibers can meet FBI minimum penetration specs with expanding ammunition. But that's my own line and other folks might define the classes differently.

[Webleymkv]

Originally posted by JohnKSa
Quote:
...it is worthy of mention that sometimes the line between performance classes can be a bit blurred.

That is absolutely correct.

I generally draw the line between the pocket pistols and the service pistols based on which calibers can meet FBI minimum penetration specs with expanding ammunition. But that's my own line and other folks might define the classes differently.

I draw the line the same way, but the problem is "borderline" calibers like .380 Auto and .38 Special (standard pressure loadings) can meet the 12" minimum or at least get very close to it with some JHP loadings while others fail miserably.

I guess the best way that I can come up with to differentiate them is to look at it in this light: "true" pocket pistol cartridges cannot both penetrate to 12" and expand reliably (they're best loaded with FMJ or other non-expanding bullets), "borderline" or "transitional" cartridges require the user to be extremely selective about their ammunition in order to get both reliable expansion and the minimum of 12" penetration, and "true" service calibers can give satisfactory performance the nearly any modern JHP bullet.

[44flattop]

So, an increase in velocity is far more important than an increase in mass.

This is pure nonsense and it is painfully obvious that your conclusions are based on study and not on actual killing. Anyone who has hunted with a handgun knows this to be false. In handguns, velocity is the most rapidly diminishing factor. Mass and diameter are the two most important factors and they are constant. Velocity and therefore energy, is vastly overrated.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

If the stopping power between a .38 and a .44 Magnum handgun, for example, is negligible,

ATN - as noted by John, I didn't say that the stopping power of those two is negligible. The penetration & expansion numbers (especially penetration) are world's apart on those two you mention, and has little to nothing to do with the three I mention (9x19, .40 SW, & .45 acp).

[Ruger45LC]

Originally Posted by 44flattop

This is pure nonsense and it is painfully obvious that your conclusions are based on study and not on actual killing. Anyone who has hunted with a handgun knows this to be false. In handguns, velocity is the most rapidly diminishing factor. Mass and diameter are the two most important factors and they are constant. Velocity and therefore energy, is vastly overrated.

I agree, well said.

[zombietactics]

Well, I am glad to see that the wagons are circling, lol.

The Earth sure looks flat, the sun sure looks like it is moving around us, and I am sure any number of people will call that a "real world" observation. Anyone can see that with their own two eyes, right? Clearly I must have never been outdoors.

Nevermind all that science and book-larnin' ... that's just for nerds.

[44flattop]

The Earth sure looks flat, the sun sure looks like it is moving around us, and I am sure any number of people will call that a "real world" observation. Anyone can see that with their own two eyes, right? Clearly I must have never been outdoors.

Nevermind all that science and book-larnin' ... that's just for nerds.

You can call us all ignorant if you want but you're still wrong. As has been said, the problem is not your "science and book learnin'" (don't assume you're talking to uneducated morons) but the application of it. You apparently don't know enough of how this stuff works in the real world, where bullets meet flesh, to understand that your conclusions are all wrong.

[zombietactics]

You can call us all ignorant if you want but you're still wrong. As has been said, the problem is not your "science and book learnin'" (don't assume you're talking to uneducated morons) but the application of it. You apparently don't know enough of how this stuff works in the real world, where bullets meet flesh, to understand that your conclusions are all wrong.

Well, I've been called a "nerd", and it's implied that I am ignorant (since I "apparently don't know enough of how this stuff works in the real world") ... so let's just call that a wash OK?

My intent is never to insult or demean, but rather to illustrate.

Now, the rub of the matter is that the "real world" does not operate in contradiction to the established physical laws of the known universe ... last time I checked anyway That's just a fact.

The continued assertion that some small group of people "knows" something which doesn't line up with established fact ... that's a giant problem. People claim they see things all the time ... and then the dashcam video proves otherwise. I'm gonna go with the dashcam, numsayin?

So, in the spirit of good will ... please continue to believe whatever you think you are seeing. I'll continue to go with repeatable, verifiable evidence and the same physics which make our guns work in the first place.

If you find some comfort in believing that I am an ignorant, desk-bound nerd who never gets out of the house ... who am I to stop you?

[eldermike]

45ACP kills wet phone books much quicker than 9mm. I know that is true
Most people have not tested their stuff. It's easy to do. Make a box that will hold a stack of phone books. Soak the books, place in the box, Shoot the wet books and then do your own analysis. I did and in every case with pistols (not mags) the bigger the bullet the more damage done. It's pretty simple really.