Leupold VX1 fails me yet again!!

tahunua001 · April 2, 2012, 10:11 PM

hello all.
I have been having issues with a Leupold VX1 1-4x scope that I have had mounted to a 9mm AR of mine for a while and today I decided that it was nice enough to attempt to take as many variables out of the equation as possible.

1. Distance. on all previous attempts to use this setup I was attempting to fire at multiple distances. today all shooting was done at 35 yards.

2. Target. previously I had been shooting at steel plates and self defense silhouette targets since that was all I had on hand. today I actually had bullseyes on hand.

3. weather. previously there were slight to moderate cross breezes. today was quite calm.

4. Stability. previously I had been shooting from prone or supported standing positions. today I used sandbags to help stabilize myself.

5. Shooter error. just to rule myself out I began the day with my 10/22 in an archangel, AR15 style stock with a barska fixed 4x scope.

10/22. the 3 rounds circled were a test group, after corrections were made the 20 of the remaining 22 rounds in the magazine went into the bullseye.

AR15, all holes marked 1 are fired at 1x zoom, all holes marked 2 are from 4x.

side by side targets to show the difference in accuracy.

the 9mm was 2-4 MOA gun, depending on who was shooting it when all it had was a cheap truglo red dot. needless to say I am going to tell Leupold to stick this scope where the sun don't shine. I'll just stick to my cheap Nikons from now on.

mrawesome22 · April 2, 2012, 10:20 PM

Have you tried it with iron sights?

Have you tried it with different ammo?

From 35 yards with iron sights, a cluster should be very achievable.

tahunua001 · April 2, 2012, 10:25 PM

I dont have a set of irons, each time I've shot it I've used different ammo. today the ammo in question is yellow box UMC. normally I use speer lawman or federal champion to no greater avail. and I agree, at 35 yards I should not be going outside that 4 ring especially on 4x zoom.

arizona98tj · April 2, 2012, 10:39 PM

IMO, you haven't proven anything. All you accomplished is you now have two targets shot with two entirely different platforms.

Now....after you shot both 9mm and .22 targets, if you had pulled the scope from the 9mm and put it on the .22 and gotten the same lousy group with the .22, you would have proven that it was the scope and/or perhaps the rings (depends if you changed them out or not).

I have a FNAR that I've been having the same issues you are having with your 9mm except that is what my group looks like at 100 yds. I shot a .5 MOA group with my Savage, then removed it's optic (I know the Savage shoots well) and put the optic and rings from my FNAR on it. I then shot another .5 MOA group with the Savage. I now proved that the FNAR's optic and rings are not the problem. Long story short, the FNAR when back to FNH.....they evaluated it and replaced the barrel. I will now take the known good optic and put it back on the now hopefully good rifle to see how it works.

FWIW, I was about 95% certain the FNAR's optic was bad before I put it on my Savage and realized it was just fine. I would have looked pretty stupid sending that optic back to the factory when there was nothing wrong with it.

tahunua001 · April 2, 2012, 10:43 PM

Quote:

IMO, you haven't proven anything. All you accomplished is you now have two targets shot with two entirely different platforms.

Now....after you shot both 9mm and .22 targets, if you had pulled the scope from the 9mm and put it on the .22 and gotten the same lousy group with the .22, you would have proven that it was the scope and/or perhaps the rings (depends if you changed them out or not).

I have a FNAR that I've been having the same issues you are having with your 9mm except that is what my group looks like at 100 yds. I shot a .5 MOA group with my Savage, then removed it's optic (I know the Savage shoots well) and put the optic and rings from my FNAR on it. I then shot another .5 MOA group with the Savage. I now proved that the FNAR's optic and rings are not the problem. Long story short, the FNAR when back to FNH.....they evaluated it and replaced the barrel. I will now take the known good optic and put it back on the now hopefully good rifle to see how it works.

perhaps you missed the part where I mentioned that this gun was accurate with different optics and the problem came into being when I replaced said optics with the leupold.

arizona98tj · April 2, 2012, 10:47 PM

I didn't miss it.

When I first got my FNAR, it would hold really close to 1 MOA....my 5 shot groups at 100 yds were about 1.2". When I sent it back to the factory, my groups at 100 yds were 2"~2.5".

For that exact reason, that is why I was certain the optic was the source of the problem.

I'm not saying your scope is not screwed up.....but IMO, your scenario is pretty damn close to mine.

tahunua001 · April 2, 2012, 10:49 PM

ahh ok I see what you're saying... well I guess if it's nice tomorrow I may through the truglo back on and see what I end up with...

arizona98tj · April 2, 2012, 10:56 PM

Good luck....I hope you get it figured out.

It is always frustrating when something like this happens.

mrawesome22 · April 2, 2012, 11:32 PM

Put the Leupold on the 22 and shoot since you know the 22 is capable.

HKFan9 · April 2, 2012, 11:45 PM

So your having issues with groups yet you shot different ammo every time? Am I reading that right?

Also you are going from a .22 to a 9mm.. light more felt recoil, you could be flinching.

Is it a single stage trigger on your AR? The pull could be heavier and causing you to pull the shots.

There is still too many variables.

Generally its usually the mounts / mounting job being an issue before it is the scope.

FrankenMauser · April 2, 2012, 11:49 PM

Quote:

I dont have a set of irons, each time I've shot it I've used different ammo. today the ammo in question is yellow box UMC.

You're using pretty much the cheapest, crappiest, most inconsistent ammo you can find, and you're blaming performance issues on the scope? ....

tahunua001 · April 3, 2012, 12:06 AM

Quote:

So your having issues with groups yet you shot different ammo every time? Am I reading that right?

affirmative. 9 times out of 10 the first thing that is blamed when someone is having issues with accuracy is the ammo. by attempting different ammo I was methodically removing that variable from play.

Quote:

You're using pretty much the cheapest, crappiest, most inconsistent ammo you can find, and you're blaming performance issues on the scope? ....

I'm picking up just a little bit of sarcasm there. tell you what...when you find a 2 MOA rifle that is reduced to 11 MOA because of cheap, dirty, unreliable ammo... I'll change my ammo stockpiles

trg42wraglefragle · April 3, 2012, 12:32 AM

I don't think ammo that inaccurate exists, the cheapest worst steel case ammo in poor accuracy guns are usually around 5ish MOA, so if you got 11 MOA out of that gun and ammo, I think its fair to assume its something else.

I agree with try the same gun and ammo with different sights/optics or try the scope on you 22.

tahunua001 · April 3, 2012, 12:48 AM

well for the sake of science and the lazy unwillingness to mess with a decent zero on the 22 scope. I am going to load the 22 with the same ammo I shot today and mount the scope from my 9mm on the 22 so see if it is rifle or scope.

simultaneously I will also be loading up the same ammo in the 9mm and will remount the cheap red dot which should already be zeroed for the rifle in question.

if the 22 accuracy goes down the tank and the 9mm jumps back to 2-4 MOA I will have it narrowed down to rings or scope. if the 9mm stays messed up and the 22 groups well then it's either a rifle or UMC takes the title for most horrifyingly inaccurate ammo ever developed.

hooligan1 · April 3, 2012, 05:50 AM

Yeah and beyond that, don't panic, Leupold has one of THE best customer services in the shooting industry.

micksis86 · April 3, 2012, 06:03 AM

I always steered clear of VX1's just not too confident on the fricton hold as opposed to the mechanical in a vx 2 and up.

Lloyd Smale · April 3, 2012, 06:59 AM

point with the ammo is that with cheap ammo just because one box shot into one inch and to a certain point of aim sure doesnt guarantee the next box will do the same. Ive seen 5 inch poa differnce between differnt brands of ammo and even the same ammo out of diffent lot numbers. Im not saying your scope isnt bad. But before you give up on it buy a box of quality ammo and see if the scope is still loosing zero.

Hansam · April 3, 2012, 08:11 AM

Quote:

simultaneously I will also be loading up the same ammo in the 9mm and will remount the cheap red dot which should already be zeroed for the rifle in question.

So I was reading this thread and had to wonder - when you took the scope off the .22 rifle and mounted it onto your 9mm AR did you zero the scope to the AR? The other question is how securely you mounted the scope onto the AR. A 9mm certainly has more recoil than a .22lr and as such if the scope isn't mounted securely with good quality rings and mounts it'll move and won't hold zero. You can have a $1000 scope and it won't hold zero or group well if its mounted with low quality furniture.

Oh and the reason I wondered about whether you zeroed the scope to the AR or not is because you mentioned just remounting the red dot and thinking it'll still be zeroed. Once you remove an optic - unless its on some sort of mounting mechanism that will allow it to retain zero when re-mounted - the optic will have to be re-zeroed every time its put back on. You can't expect your POA to be the same each time you remove and remount an optic unless its on a rig specifically for that. Last I saw Tru-Glo optics did not come with that sort of mounting equipment... or else they'd be considerably more expensive. In fact I don't think Eotechs or Aimpoints hold the same zero after they've been removed and re-mounted.

tahunua001 · April 3, 2012, 11:17 AM

the reddot was never on the 22. I'm leaving the 22 scope alone just because when I'm done I just need to remount it and maybe fiddle with a couple clicks in any direction. the truglo reddot has actually been very forgiving of switching platforms. it was mounted on my older brothers 7.62x39mm AR15 and when he upgraded to scope, he put it on my AK47. it still held decent enough zero for plinking that I never touched it and when the truglo moved to the 9mm it only took a couple clicks to zero it.

However, I'm not really expecting to slap it on and hit point of aim every time. te point of this experiment is to get GROUPS.

tahunua001 · April 3, 2012, 12:26 PM

alright guys. went out this morning and tested again. same range and weather conditions. this time with the truglo reddot on the 9mm and the leupold on my 10/22.

here is the 10/22 with the same ammo as yesterday

now here is the 9mm with the truglo. please note that no adjustments were made once the optic was mounted.

and the side by side

Clifford L. Hughes · April 3, 2012, 12:28 PM

Tahunua001:

I'm not sure what your problem is; however, I doubt that it's your Leupold scope. After I retired from the Marine Corps I sold guns for twenty years. In all of thoes years the only scope that I sent back to Leupold was my own to have targets turrets and a dot reticle installed. I can't say that for other brands of scopes. If it is the scope Leupold wil repair it without any questions.

Semper Fi.

Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired

tahunua001 · April 3, 2012, 07:53 PM

I dont have pics but I took the rings off the leupold and put them on the 22 with the barska scope and it still grouped so without a shadow of a doubt, the scope is to blame.

Big Pard · April 3, 2012, 08:14 PM

I've sent several Leupolds back over the years. Most were bought used or came on rifles I bought. Generally the problem was gas leaks around the old VX-II adjustments and had a couple erector problems with some of the VX-III's. They always honored the warranty without question eventhough they didn't always fix the problem on the first go round.

Triplespeed · April 3, 2012, 08:31 PM

they replaced one we shut in a truck door hunting one time no issues

mrawesome22 · April 3, 2012, 09:05 PM

Glad you got it figured out.

Now send it in with your "where the sun don't shine" remark and I'm sure they'll take the time to make sure it is fixed extra good.

Edit: Reminds me of people screaming into the microphone at a fast food joint. Don't those people realize what is probably getting done to their food?

April 2, 2012, 10:11 PM	#1
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	Leupold VX1 fails me yet again!! hello all. I have been having issues with a Leupold VX1 1-4x scope that I have had mounted to a 9mm AR of mine for a while and today I decided that it was nice enough to attempt to take as many variables out of the equation as possible. 1. Distance. on all previous attempts to use this setup I was attempting to fire at multiple distances. today all shooting was done at 35 yards. 2. Target. previously I had been shooting at steel plates and self defense silhouette targets since that was all I had on hand. today I actually had bullseyes on hand. 3. weather. previously there were slight to moderate cross breezes. today was quite calm. 4. Stability. previously I had been shooting from prone or supported standing positions. today I used sandbags to help stabilize myself. 5. Shooter error. just to rule myself out I began the day with my 10/22 in an archangel, AR15 style stock with a barska fixed 4x scope. 10/22. the 3 rounds circled were a test group, after corrections were made the 20 of the remaining 22 rounds in the magazine went into the bullseye. AR15, all holes marked 1 are fired at 1x zoom, all holes marked 2 are from 4x. side by side targets to show the difference in accuracy. the 9mm was 2-4 MOA gun, depending on who was shooting it when all it had was a cheap truglo red dot. needless to say I am going to tell Leupold to stick this scope where the sun don't shine. I'll just stick to my cheap Nikons from now on. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

April 2, 2012, 10:25 PM	#3
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	I dont have a set of irons, each time I've shot it I've used different ammo. today the ammo in question is yellow box UMC. normally I use speer lawman or federal champion to no greater avail. and I agree, at 35 yards I should not be going outside that 4 ring especially on 4x zoom. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

April 2, 2012, 10:39 PM	#4
arizona98tj Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 980	IMO, you haven't proven anything. All you accomplished is you now have two targets shot with two entirely different platforms. Now....after you shot both 9mm and .22 targets, if you had pulled the scope from the 9mm and put it on the .22 and gotten the same lousy group with the .22, you would have proven that it was the scope and/or perhaps the rings (depends if you changed them out or not). I have a FNAR that I've been having the same issues you are having with your 9mm except that is what my group looks like at 100 yds. I shot a .5 MOA group with my Savage, then removed it's optic (I know the Savage shoots well) and put the optic and rings from my FNAR on it. I then shot another .5 MOA group with the Savage. I now proved that the FNAR's optic and rings are not the problem. Long story short, the FNAR when back to FNH.....they evaluated it and replaced the barrel. I will now take the known good optic and put it back on the now hopefully good rifle to see how it works. FWIW, I was about 95% certain the FNAR's optic was bad before I put it on my Savage and realized it was just fine. I would have looked pretty stupid sending that optic back to the factory when there was nothing wrong with it. __________________ stu-offroad.com Largest Jeep TJ project site on the web! (now with guns)

April 2, 2012, 10:47 PM	#6
arizona98tj Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 980	I didn't miss it. When I first got my FNAR, it would hold really close to 1 MOA....my 5 shot groups at 100 yds were about 1.2". When I sent it back to the factory, my groups at 100 yds were 2"~2.5". For that exact reason, that is why I was certain the optic was the source of the problem. I'm not saying your scope is not screwed up.....but IMO, your scenario is pretty damn close to mine. __________________ stu-offroad.com Largest Jeep TJ project site on the web! (now with guns)

April 2, 2012, 10:49 PM	#7
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	ahh ok I see what you're saying... well I guess if it's nice tomorrow I may through the truglo back on and see what I end up with... __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

April 2, 2012, 10:20 PM	#2
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Have you tried it with iron sights? Have you tried it with different ammo? From 35 yards with iron sights, a cluster should be very achievable.

April 2, 2012, 10:56 PM	#8
arizona98tj Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 980	Good luck....I hope you get it figured out. It is always frustrating when something like this happens. __________________ stu-offroad.com Largest Jeep TJ project site on the web! (now with guns)

April 2, 2012, 11:32 PM	#9
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Put the Leupold on the 22 and shoot since you know the 22 is capable.

April 2, 2012, 11:45 PM	#10
HKFan9 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2008 Posts: 3,057	So your having issues with groups yet you shot different ammo every time? Am I reading that right? Also you are going from a .22 to a 9mm.. light more felt recoil, you could be flinching. Is it a single stage trigger on your AR? The pull could be heavier and causing you to pull the shots. There is still too many variables. Generally its usually the mounts / mounting job being an issue before it is the scope.

April 3, 2012, 12:32 AM	#13
trg42wraglefragle Senior Member Join Date: April 21, 2008 Location: new zealand Posts: 856	I don't think ammo that inaccurate exists, the cheapest worst steel case ammo in poor accuracy guns are usually around 5ish MOA, so if you got 11 MOA out of that gun and ammo, I think its fair to assume its something else. I agree with try the same gun and ammo with different sights/optics or try the scope on you 22.

April 3, 2012, 12:48 AM	#14
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	well for the sake of science and the lazy unwillingness to mess with a decent zero on the 22 scope. I am going to load the 22 with the same ammo I shot today and mount the scope from my 9mm on the 22 so see if it is rifle or scope. simultaneously I will also be loading up the same ammo in the 9mm and will remount the cheap red dot which should already be zeroed for the rifle in question. if the 22 accuracy goes down the tank and the 9mm jumps back to 2-4 MOA I will have it narrowed down to rings or scope. if the 9mm stays messed up and the 22 groups well then it's either a rifle or UMC takes the title for most horrifyingly inaccurate ammo ever developed. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

April 3, 2012, 05:50 AM	#15
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,586	Yeah and beyond that, don't panic, Leupold has one of THE best customer services in the shooting industry. __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

April 3, 2012, 06:03 AM	#16
micksis86 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2009 Posts: 420	I always steered clear of VX1's just not too confident on the fricton hold as opposed to the mechanical in a vx 2 and up. __________________ Never argue with morons, they will lower you down to their level and beat you with experience.

April 3, 2012, 06:59 AM	#17
Lloyd Smale Junior member Join Date: February 11, 2005 Posts: 822	point with the ammo is that with cheap ammo just because one box shot into one inch and to a certain point of aim sure doesnt guarantee the next box will do the same. Ive seen 5 inch poa differnce between differnt brands of ammo and even the same ammo out of diffent lot numbers. Im not saying your scope isnt bad. But before you give up on it buy a box of quality ammo and see if the scope is still loosing zero.

April 3, 2012, 11:17 AM	#19
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	the reddot was never on the 22. I'm leaving the 22 scope alone just because when I'm done I just need to remount it and maybe fiddle with a couple clicks in any direction. the truglo reddot has actually been very forgiving of switching platforms. it was mounted on my older brothers 7.62x39mm AR15 and when he upgraded to scope, he put it on my AK47. it still held decent enough zero for plinking that I never touched it and when the truglo moved to the 9mm it only took a couple clicks to zero it. However, I'm not really expecting to slap it on and hit point of aim every time. te point of this experiment is to get GROUPS. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

April 3, 2012, 12:26 PM	#20
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	alright guys. went out this morning and tested again. same range and weather conditions. this time with the truglo reddot on the 9mm and the leupold on my 10/22. here is the 10/22 with the same ammo as yesterday now here is the 9mm with the truglo. please note that no adjustments were made once the optic was mounted. and the side by side __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

April 3, 2012, 12:28 PM	#21
Clifford L. Hughes Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2011 Location: Southern Californis Posts: 795	Tahunua001: I'm not sure what your problem is; however, I doubt that it's your Leupold scope. After I retired from the Marine Corps I sold guns for twenty years. In all of thoes years the only scope that I sent back to Leupold was my own to have targets turrets and a dot reticle installed. I can't say that for other brands of scopes. If it is the scope Leupold wil repair it without any questions. Semper Fi. Gunnery sergeant Clifford L. Hughes USMC Retired

April 3, 2012, 07:53 PM	#22
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	I dont have pics but I took the rings off the leupold and put them on the 22 with the barska scope and it still grouped so without a shadow of a doubt, the scope is to blame. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

April 3, 2012, 08:14 PM	#23
Big Pard Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2011 Location: North Carolina Posts: 191	I've sent several Leupolds back over the years. Most were bought used or came on rifles I bought. Generally the problem was gas leaks around the old VX-II adjustments and had a couple erector problems with some of the VX-III's. They always honored the warranty without question eventhough they didn't always fix the problem on the first go round.

April 3, 2012, 08:31 PM	#24
Triplespeed Junior Member Join Date: January 29, 2012 Posts: 12	they replaced one we shut in a truck door hunting one time no issues

April 3, 2012, 09:05 PM	#25
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Glad you got it figured out. Now send it in with your "where the sun don't shine" remark and I'm sure they'll take the time to make sure it is fixed extra good. Edit: Reminds me of people screaming into the microphone at a fast food joint. Don't those people realize what is probably getting done to their food?