Shooting technique with Laser Sight

[Rogervzv]

I hope that this is the right forum for this topic. My question is what type of firing stance do you fellows use when firing at targets using a laser sight? Initially, I used the laser more or less as a substitute for the front sight, thus I framed the laser dot within the posts of the rear sight much as though it were the front sight.

I seem to have evolved to a stance where I use the usual Weaver stance, but instead of sighting the laser dot using the rear conventional sight, I hold the pistol at about jaw level, elbows locked, with both eyes open, steady the laser dot on the target, and shoot. This seems to work better for me and allows me to shoot with both eyes open, which is quite novel to me.

What do the rest of you laser aficionados do in this regards?

[KC Rob]

Not a laser aficionado, quite the opposite actually, so I can't help you with your stance question. Just out of curiosity, what kind of gun are you talking about and what purpose do you use it for? Defense, target, hunting etc.?

[Brian Pfleuger]

The whole point of a laser is that your stance doesn't matter.

Lay on the ground and shoot with your off hand.... Doesn't matter, the magic bullet always kills the red dot.

[ShaulWolf]

I'm new to the forum, so I'm not sure if the tactics and training portion refers to only handguns or not. My only experience is with a rifle using a PEQ-15. The laser was used so that we could take much faster shots in low light conditions, or in the dark with night optics. The only rule we were taught was make sure whatever stance you were using was stable enough that your follow up shots didn't go wild. Most of us found that we could be much more flexible in our shooting positions and our focus could shift away from perfect sighting to making sure we were steady when we got the dot on target and that we didn't slap the trigger and send the round off target.

[TeamSinglestack]

The fact that you are using a laser does not change the need to apply sound fundamentals, including the need to adopt a stance that is comfortable, balanced, provides stability, and facilitates recoil management.

If a weaver works for you for static shots, stick with the weaver.

[Nnobby45]

The whole point of a laser is that your stance doesn't matter.

I agree with Singlestack.

The fact that it can be used to shoot from most any position is an added bonus if needed, but not the main feature.

Bringing the gun to eye level with the stance you would naturally employ,given the situation, works very well, no need to use it in conjuntion with the rear sight notch.

Have to admit, though, that from a low ready position, one can (if necessary) just leave the elbows locked into the sides and simple raise the arms, well short of eye level---and it's fast! Don't let your grip activate the laser before you bring the gun to bear.

[Rogervzv]

Not a laser aficionado, quite the opposite actually, so I can't help you with your stance question. Just out of curiosity, what kind of gun are you talking about and what purpose do you use it for? Defense, target, hunting etc.?

I actually have Crimson Trace lasers on my Beretta 9mms as well as my Dan Wesson PM7-45. Purpose is putting accurate holes in both paper targets and home invaders if you get my drift.

I shoot remarkably better with a laser (or Red Dot sight) as compared to conventional sights. I am still getting used to not using the conventional sights at all which is why I started this thread. Good comments everyone and keep them coming.

[Nnobby45]

I am still getting used to not using the conventional sights at all which is why I started this thread. Good comments everyone and keep them coming.

The laser sight is supposed to be an AID, not a CRUTCH. Learn sights first, lasers second. You don't want to be inefficient with a pistol because it doesn't have a laser.

Lasers are worthless in sunlight.

[CWKahrFan]

Here's a suggestion... Next time at the range using the laser... shoot a couple of magazines with the gun at belly level, elbows pressed lightly on your ribs.

(Of course, especially if you're short in stature, make sure you're gun is well above the shelf of the range stall!)

When I do this, it's a bit of a revelation. I can hold the gun very steady. It's more like point shooting and also gives me a very different awareness of how my gun is an extension of my main power center which is centered mid-body... (the hara center)... rather than an extension of my eyes and brain. It also gives a different and interesting view of the gun in action.

[ShaulWolf]

I figure even if you could see the dot in the sunlight you'd be close enough that it's just point and shoot. Nnobby45 said it best; the lasers are an aid, not a crutch. We used them in low light for faster target acquisition on snap shots. When we needed to do accurate shots we still used our sights.

[TeamSinglestack]

The laser sight is supposed to be an AID, not a CRUTCH. Learn sights first, lasers second. You don't want to be inefficient with a pistol just it doesn't have a laser.

I see em' as an augmentation as well, and not a replacement.

I consistently shoot faster with irons or RDS optics on handguns and rifles than with a visible laser simply because I can track the irons/optics with my peripheral vision as I bring them up to eye level on target.

Lasers are great training aids for dry fire, and can certainly help folks with vision problems. I found that they can be hard to see in bright light as well, however, it depends on the brand / power of the laser I suppose.

Regardless, I'd recommend zeroing them so that they can be used in conjunction with the front sight, so that IF the laser goes down, for whatever reason, you've got your front sight right there in your face already, and won't have to go looking for it.

[Rogervzv]

I personally find that I shoot far more accurately with a laser or a red dot sight than with iron sights. FYI I have been shooting for 35 years, since my Army service days. Perhaps like most shooters, I am conservative about changing gear and tactics, and I was very slow to embrace lasers and red dots. Have been using lasers and red-dots less than a year. The accuracy that I can achieve with these has compelled me not to ignore their benefits. Has nothing to do with being a crutch -- fact is that conventional "iron" sights were invented in the 1800s and are an ingenious, durable, and reliable solution for aligning barrel to target. (Source: History Channel; Tales of the Gun). Have to say that for me, the laser or red dot works better. Smaller tighter groups at further distances. I believe in results. (Incidentally, I have 20/20 vision; no problems there.)

One of the benefits of a laser over a red dot is that the laser does not at all interfere with the "iron" sights. If the laser fails (which it never has) the iron sight is right there. Incidentally, I find the laser to be a valuable tool for adjusting conventional sights. First adjust the laser so that it places the shot group properly, then adjust the sight such that it aligns with the laser dot. This appears to result, at least for me, in a superior alignment accuracy of the iron sights. Great fun!

I use Crimson Trace red lasers, and these are plenty visible in bright daylight for any reasonable tactical distance (i.e. pistol shooting distance). It is simply not true that the laser is not visible in bright daylight. While green lasers are easier to see in daylight, they are power hogs and are electronically more complex. CT has a pretty good write-up about this on their website.

Red Dots have the advantage of passivity -- no dot for the target to detect. Red Dots also work great for longer daylight distances than do lasers and are more suitable for precision distance rifle shooting. Their downside is size and durability, and the notion that red-dots really are not well suited for most semi-auto pistols since the slide action will subject the red-dot to a lot of mechanical stress.

Great comments everyone. Keep 'em coming!

[*NOVA*]

Set Up:
Crimson Trace mounted on my Ruger GP100 3" and my SW Model 10 4" and the front and rear sights set exactly where they need to be for elevation, optimum for a target distance between 21 feet and 75 feet. I have the laser dot appear just on top of the front site. One option I tried was to have it approx 2" above POI at 21 feet, but then I'd have to always keep that in mind, so I settled for dot on POI.

Training:
The CT's are IMO, awesome for training because it shows what happens during trigger pull.

Main Purpose of Use - I agree, lasers AUGMENT the use of sites. If batteries fail and you have removed you front site or have not practiced using sites, you might as well run up to the BG and shoot at point blank range!

But the other thing that's great about the laser is in a SD/HD scenario you can shoot from behind cover with out lining up sites.

[ClydeFrog]

There are a few tips & tactics that improve or enhance lasergrips or 1913 type laser systems in my opine.
A good resource is the free Crimsontrace lasergrip DVD, www.Crimsontrace.com .
The instructor in the company video shows different methods & stances but stresses(rather prudently) that laser sights or add-ons are only a support tool and NOT a replacement for marksmanship or proper skill training.

ClydeFrog

[booker_t]

Unless you're shooting competition or Olympic targets, "stance" shouldn't matter, regardless of whether you have a laser, a flux capacitor, or any other device.

The misconception about the importance of stance, and the extended worry and discussions about "recoil management" have hurt shooters for decades, by putting their focus where it doesn't belong.

Set up the laser to coincide with your point of impact at ranges you expect to use the gun at most frequently, or when it really counts.

[ClayInTx]

I carry a handgun for self defense.

I don’t figure on having time to affect any kind of “stance”.

I used the laser to improve my point shooting aim; which it did.

I can consistantly draw in about one second and put a hole into a sheet of typing paper at twenty feet by shooting from the hip; without using the laser. However, the laser is there if I need it.

[ClydeFrog]

I disagree to an extent, with the last few member posts.
Stances or marksmanship can be very important in a critical incident.
Jeff Cooper, the highly respected gun writer & tactics instructor stated that people do what they are trained under stress.
Massad Ayoob, another top instructor & use of force/legal expert teaches students to use methods that work well under stress or in training that include the use of proper stances & the handgun sights.
The late Jim Cirello, a retired NYPD officer & a former training instructor at the FLETC, www.fletc.gov , reported how in a after action review of a lethal force event he could count the # of ridges on his service revolver's front sight.
Cirello was involved directly in many gunfights as a founding member of a covert NYPD stake-out/anti-robbery detail.
Stance & sights can assist a armed citizen or LE/armed security officer in a lethal force event.

[Rogervzv]

I have never actually had to fire a weapon at a human, although I trained in the military to do so. But military training for many things has taught me that in times of stress or crisis, you fall back on your training. Thus, if you have trained yourself to shoot a certain way, and you ultimately are forced to do it for real, you will do best if you fall back on your training. For shooting, this includes stance, grip on the gun, and all the rest. I do not regard this practice, i.e. stance with the laser, etc. as being solely for recreational shooting. Hopefully it would also apply to the real deal should it ever occur. My $.01.

[Big Shrek]

One should have a solid grasp of the basics of firearm use before adding extras.

Blade sights to start, then red-dot/scopes, then lasers.

Having used all those & a few other oddballs like the Marbles Bullseye...the Laser is a VERY nice tool

Its like Martial Arts...it does not matter if your horse stance is perfect during a fight for your life/money/etc...
If you are concentrating on getting into a perfect stance while your opponent kicks you in the nuts, you loose.
A good stance is nice, gives you a better base to launch your defense/attacks from,
but you also need to be able to launch attacks & defense while off-balance/in bad positions...
and that is where having great physical strength & flexibility truly come in handy.

If in doubt, watch a Jackie Chan movie...being able to climb/move/etc as he does makes him more dangerous than Chuck Norris!!
Then watch a few Sammo Hung flicks...chunky monkey, but the rascal is Strong...and can also move pretty darn well...
looks like yer Uncle Ralph with a Kegger, but can move like a greased eel when the time comes.

Bring that back to using lasers...if you can shoot from oddball positions, DO IT!!
The more training you have in using oddball positions after having been trained well in "Normal" stances, the better!!

Being able to draw from an ankle holster & fire accurately when knocked flat on your back may save your life!!

[ClayInTx]

Assuming a “stance” on the firing range is one thing because the targets aren’t after your butt.

A perp coming out of a back alley at you is the real world.

[insomni]

I don't like lasers because I have to track the dot, and it's easy to lose. I'd rather stick to a reflex or holo sight.

Aside from that, yes, steady position and good trigger squeeze always count, even with a laser. Magic bullet will always hit the red dot..... but be sure you're non-magical breathing and fingers didn't accidentally move said red dot as you were firing said magic bullet.

[Jeff56]

Personally I absolutely love lasers. They are not a "crutch". They are a completely different way of aiming a firearm. You can do things with them that you could never do with iron sights or a red dot sight.

For example if you were taking cover behind a rock a lot of people will say that a laser will give away your position. Well the chances are if you're in a life and death struggle with a bad guy they already have a pretty good idea where you are anyway especially at handgun distances. I can take my laser and hold it around one side of a big rock and look around another side of the big rock. In effect I can fool a BG about my exact location and I can still fire accurately from that position. I might get my hand shot but that's far better than getting my head shot. And I can fire off hand with my weak hand. A laser gives me a far more flexible way to aim in quite a few ways actually. Plus I can fool a BG by bouncing a laser off of glass and making him think I am aiming directly at him.

There are just many, many advantages of using a laser. I don't think anyone should avoid learning to shoot with iron sights. Heavens no. I think a person should learn to shoot with irons, with a laser and by just point shooting. And for the record green lasers are a lot more affordable than they were a few years ago. You might not be able to use them in very bright sunlight but you can use them in daylight often. If it's an overcast day or it's raining they work pretty well.

Plus I can use a laser to practice point shooting. I sit around the living room and practice this method pretty often. I try to point shoot my pistol at a particular target then I turn on the laser to see how close I came to hitting what I was aiming for. Spending a few minutes a day doing this will greatly improve your point shooting ability without having to fire a lot of ammo.

I've been shooting for 48 years. I started using lasers about 20 years ago. I've done some amazing things with lasers that I could never have done without them. I've shot bats flying through the air with a .22 rifle shooting from the hip. Bats are very difficult to shoot but a laser makes the process much easier. And if you get a bat nest in your chimney you can expect bats to attack you eventually. They are very protective of their nests at times and they do carry rabies. Ordinarily I like bats because they eat mosquitoes but I don't like having them next in my chimney. They do it in the summer when you aren't using the chimney so there is no smoke to drive them out. They can clog your chimney too and possibly start a chimney fire. And if you do try to smoke them out you could really see a lot of aggressive actions from the bats.

I really wish more lasers had touch pad on/off switches like I've had on several .22's. I still have a .22 with a laser mounted on it for night time varmint control. I also have a laser on my CCW pistol just in case. It's a very light laser and it keeps zero permanently apparently. I have never had to zero it again after the first time. I had to modify my holster slightly but it wasn't that hard.

I have been thinking about buying a green laser for one of my backup CCW pistols. I was hoping to order one very soon in fact. They do make a useful addition to a handgun or a short range rifle like a .22. There is a definite limit on how far they are effective. They can't match the range of a .22 rifle or even come close to it. But for shooting running animals in low light (I always make sure I know where I'm shooting and what's behind what I'm shooting at) or for shooting BG's in dark conditions a laser can make the job much, much easier. A person always has to be sure of their target but where I live that really isn't all that hard. And if you put a laser on a .22 semi auto you can drive off a whole pack of feral dogs or coyotes or whatever.

[Mobuck]

My most frequent use of a laser mounted pistol is varmint control after dark(usually on the deck). With the laser, all I have to do is open the door far enough to reach outside. I don't have to actually step out, just get my wrist past the door. This is the ultimate use for a laser sight since you don't have to be behind the gun at all. Also have used this shooting varmints while holding a light with other hand-no need to have the light glaring off the sights to make the shot.
My opinion is experience with this sort of handgun use will gain you more skill than many of the contrived "scenarios" described on TV, in books, and by the "experts". Nothing like aiming and shooting a bobbing and weaving possum in the dark for practice.

[jimbob86]

you've got your front sight right there in your face already, and won't have to go looking for it.

So why put that doodad on there in the first place? Front sight, press. No looking for anything.

[spacecoast]

Initially, I used the laser more or less as a substitute for the front sight, thus I framed the laser dot within the posts of the rear sight much as though it were the front sight.

I think the whole point of the laser is that the bullet goes where the dot shines, so you don't have to worry about whether the dot is between the sights or not. It sounds as if you eventually came to that realization.