Jacketed bullets and powderpuff loads

[skizzums]

I want to have a "conversation" about how low can you go on charge weights with jacketed bullets. I already know to follow the published min dat and all will be well. I am just curious to know what people have tried. none of this is recommended for other reloaders and actually is advised against. this is a great way to squib your gun and ruin a barrel. so let's not argue about reality, lets talk "theoretically" about what COULD be done in a jacketed bullet.

I have gone under 1gr of hp38 shooting 158gr out of .38 special, not only did it clear my pistols hundreds of times, it also made a super quiet fun load for the 20" carbine and still had enough power to blow through the 2x4's and plywood backing. my understanding is that is possible only with lead bullets and that jacketed bullets have friction between the copper and the steel and can presumably make it come to a screeching halt.

I ask only because I was recently loading for a female shooter who is new to guns, could not find a factory .38 load that she was comfortable with. Now, these rounds are already loaded, and I stayed within published minimums, mainly because it's not for me so I don't want to create an issue with someone else's gun, especially a new shooter that may not be able to tell when something is off. if this load is still too strong at the published min I will talk them into trying some fully coated lead bullets next, although I didn't want her to need to go that route and maybe have to deal with leading and range rules etc.

just curious at what velocity would you expect a jacketed .38 or 9mm or whatever to actually get slowed to a full stop? my honest guess would be less than 500FPS from a snubbie would be fine. I know.....if you can't shoot a properly loaded .38spl, than your should be looking at 22.mag or less, this is just a curiosity question. and would plated have the same amount of friction as a jacketed? or possibly even more since the copper actually gets squeezed into the rifling and possibly fills the entire bore?

[TimSr]

It's going to depend on the bullet contruction. Semi-jacketed ammo can separate at low pressure, where a FMJ probably won't.

Really though, the whole premise does not seem realistic to me. 38spl powder puff loads with lead (uncoated) are the easist thing in the world to load safely, and I can't understand a more expensive, more erratic and less safe option would ever be considered. I am glad you are not subjecting a beginner to potential squibs that they may not recognize.

Yes, starting loads for plated is the same as starting loads for jacketed for the same reason.

Even cast loads often become erratic and fluctuate under 500-600fps. I wouldn't even put a jacketed to testing as I don't see the point, but I would think they would vary more.

[reddog81]

I imagine it is going to vary barrel to barrel. Groove diameter and bore diameter are going to make a differences. How "rough" the barrel is is also going to matter. Also actual bullet diameter is going to make a difference- .357 vs .358 etc.

I've gone 20% below Lyman's minimum for 125 grain lead bullets with bullseye powder and the load was super accurate and it felt like shooting a .22. I have no idea how low you can go but you definitely need to watch for squibs.
No one should ever go below published minimums and if you do it is at your own risk

For what it's worth I used a heavy crimp. I did this under the assumption that it would help ensure complete combustion of the powder before the bullet dislodges from the case. I imagine crimp will also make a difference in how low you can go

[T. O'Heir]

"...great way to squib your gun and..." Can be far worse than that. Below minimum loads can actually detonate vs burn. Very bad ju-ju.
Anyway, if you want a light jacketed load, go with a lighter bullet weight and slower speeds. Hornady's 110 XTP with AutoComp maybe.

[Slamfire]

A problem with ultra light loads is the propensity of the bullet not to make it out of the barrel. I am currently going to test some ultra light loads in the 44 Special, because, I am shooting Bullseye and want to bang away with a M24. I also don’t want recoil. If I can develop an accurate, low recoil load that makes a hole in the target, I will consider my experiments to be a win. If the bullet bounces off the paper target, that will be a fail.

Ultra light loads with jacketed bullets is almost an oxy-moron. Jacketed bullets work better with velocity and I predict, they are easier to stick in the barrel than a lead bullet. Bore obstructions will cause a catastrophic failure, in fact, have. I don’t think it is wise to attempt to develop ultra low velocity jacketed bullet loads, it is far better to use lead bullets. You can also stick a lead bullet in the barrel so nothing in life is guaranteed. NRA Bullseye is extremely hard as is, high recoil just makes it worse. So Bullseye shooters developed a number of excellent light recoil loads in the 38 Special, one of them was a 148 LSWC with 2.7 grains Bullseye.

The 158 LRN load is a standard 38 Special load. Bit more recoil but accurate.

S&W M638-3 Airweight Bodyguard

148 LWC Valiant 2.7 grs Bullseye thrown Mixed Brass WSP
18-Mar-07 T = 52 °F little high

Ave Vel = 611.6
Std Dev = 22.04
ES = 75.92
High = 648.1
Low = 572.2
N = 25


158 LSWC 3.5 grs Bullseye Mixed brass WSP
18-Mar-07 T = 52 °F 4-6" High accurate

Ave Vel = 670.7
Std Dev = 17.52
ES = 65.4
High = 697.5
Low = 632.1
N = 12

[Jim243]

I know.....if you can't shoot a properly loaded .38spl, than your should be looking at 22.mag or less

You hit the answer right on the head. (Bullseye)

Jim

[5whiskey]

"...great way to squib your gun and..." Can be far worse than that. Below minimum loads can actually detonate vs burn.

Mr. O'Heir I'm under the impression that this is far more of a concern with large capacity rifle cartridges and slower burning powder. I'm not saying it could never happen with a pistol round, because I never say never... but I would think an explosion from a squib load is 1000 times more likely.

As to the OP... I think everyone else pretty much brought this home. Powder puff loads are best left to properly lubed lead bullets (you would be surprised, you may see leading go up with softer loads).

[Nick_C_S]

I am currently going to test some ultra light loads in the 44 Special, because, I am shooting Bullseye and want to bang away with a M24. I also don’t want recoil. If I can develop an accurate, low recoil load that makes a hole in the target, I will consider my experiments to be a win.

Slamfire; I'm doing the same thing right now; my piece is a 629 Classic, 5" (it's new - I have a whole 112 rounds through it so far). Just got started today. I'm using an X-treme 200gn RNFP. I made three load recipes (20 rds each) today. All three are the minimum in Speer #14 (under their 200gn GDHP). Depending on how they feel and chronograph, I may move down.
Bullseye - 5.1gn
HP-38 - 6.0gn
TiteGroup - 5.3gn
The plan is to take them out Monday and send them through the chrono.

To tie this to the OP's original question: There is more of a concern with a stuck bullet in revolvers. The barrel/cylinder gap bleeds off gasses. With jacketed or plated (in a revolver), I have a personal (albeit arbitrary) moratorium of <575 f/s. For lead (less barrel friction), it's <500 f/s. However, I almost never get into this velocity territory because there's pretty much never a need to go that low.

[firewrench044]

Powder puff load I worked up for my wife
38 SPL, 2' barrel ( also tested in 5' barrel )
very light recoil and accurate

102gr JHP Rem. ( 380 bullet )
5.2gr Win. 231
CCI # 500 primer
coal 1.450
( taper crimp- got taper crimp die for 38 SPL from RCBS )

[skizzums]

i can see the gap maybe being more of an issue for revolvers, but sine loads like this would never cycle a semi-auto, kinda misses my objective. I kinda figured with a 2" or less barrel, getting a bullet to slow down enough in such a short run of rifling would have to be under 500 FPS. just thinking though, I could just get off my rear and go try it out.

[Nick_C_S]

I kinda figured with a 2" or less barrel, getting a bullet to slow down enough in such a short run of rifling would have to be under 500 FPS.

I agree. You're probably right.

[Ozzieman]

http://www.pennbullets.com/38/38-caliber.html

I have loaded the 100 GR wad cutter in 38's for my wife's S&W 60 when she started out. 3.2 GR of Trail boss will give you about 750 fps. The recoil is very light. Feels like a light 32 auto. Its accurate and light on the pocket.
If this light of a load is to much for her I think another gun in in order. I just don't think its a good idea to go below book numbers.
Another thing I tried was round ball in a 45 LC. I don't remember the powder I used but the calculated velocity was around 550 fps. Felt like shooting a 22.

[Nick_C_S]

I have loaded the 100 GR wad cutter

I have this one from Penn Bullets too. It's a cute little wadcutter. I've used them in 38 Short Colt - 1.8gn Bullseye; barely yields 500 f/s.

I also use their 185gn WC for 44 Special - again, light recoil.