Weak index finger on trigger guard / finger forward technique, pros/cons

[Para Bellum]

Thank you guys - now I know

...that there really is no reason not to do it.

I shoot very well and beat LEO firearms instructors as well as very determimed IPSC-Freaks in IPSC-Competitions on a regular basis.
With the weak hand index finger on the trigger guard, I'm even better.
I think it's because of mx short index fingers. If I place one there, I wrap around the gun beneath the trigger guard with my weak hand's middle finger, and that still is my longest finger.

I assume it's all about the specific hands on the specific gun and the guy behind that.

For the Glock 26 I found that als an IPSC Grandmaster (friend) who holds his race-guns "normal" does better with the finger on the trigger bar.

Thank you all for your input and stay safe!
Discussion is a step towards improvement.
PB

[pax]

Para Bellum ~

There is a big reason not to do it: it is an unsafe habit. See my earlier post.

Can't put it more plainly than that.

pax

[liliysdad]

Ive never handled a gun that, when placing the index finger on the front of the trigger guard, put the finger dangerously close to the muzzle.

Its not unsafe, and its not wrong. There is no right or wrong way, there is the way that works for you.

[Para Bellum]

There is a big reason not to do it: it is an unsafe habit. See my earlier post.

I disagree in peace.

[Don P]

I to use this hold on my G26. Having somewhat larger than average hands I find it very comfortable to hold the pistol this way. With 1000+ rounds through the G26 I have yet to experience a burn on the weak hand finger because of being placed on the front on the trigger guard. If it feels good and comfy go for it. What's right for me is not always right for the next person.

[Jkwas]

Out of curiosity, What do they make it so tempting to so by designing it that way? It seems like a lot of hanguns have the feature.

[Magyar]

Less than 2% of the shooters in the world can outshoot the remaining 98%. Did you ever wonder why? Is it because perhaps they know something the rest don't?

Sure, I know why....A barrel-and-rib job, action slicking, soft-ball ammo & mainsprings, etc....It's a "carnival", especially in the Open Division...
BTW, we're talking about grasping the pistol; fingers & the trigger guard...
BTW11, did you know that in the Bianchi Cup for many years the power factor were not checked??? Makes you wonder???

[Magyar]

Out of curiosity, What do they make it so tempting to so by designing it that way? It seems like a lot of hanguns have the feature.

From my research, it had nothing to do with the weak index finger wrap-a-round. The reason given years ago had to do with making room for shooting gloves for those pistoleros in the lousy temperate zones....
The shooting deviation came later in utilizing the design for better shooting, so they thought...

[hksigwalther]

Thank you guys - now I know

...that there really is no reason not to do it.

Ding ding ding.

You know what they say about opinions.

[Edward429451]

I tried that grip back when it was first being talked about. It didn't work for me. I found that it weakened my support hand grip as was noted by one poster.

[Lurper]

Sure, I know why....A barrel-and-rib job, action slicking, soft-ball ammo & mainsprings, etc....It's a "carnival", especially in the Open Division...

If you're talking IPSC Mag, that is just not true. IPSC is shot with full power loads, even in open class. Bottom line still is that the best shooters are the best because of thier skill and technique (like grip), not because of equipment. On any given day, the best shooters are still the best shooters no matter what gun you give them.

The Bianchi cup never applied the same principles of D.V.C. as IPSC did, so power was never an issue.

You should do a little more research.

[Mas Ayoob]

I think some folks missed Pax's point.

No, you're not likely to shoot your support hand's finger off wrapping it around the trigger guard of your usual 1911, K-frame, Glock, etc.

However, if you have haabituated yourself to wrapping that finger out an inch or so ahead of your firing hand's trigger finger and parallel to it -- and then, in an emergency, find yourself with a picked-up .25 auto that points low -- the position in which you've habituated yourself to place that support hand index finger can now put it directly in front of the muzzle of the much smaller, lower-pointing gun.

[WESHOOT2]

Suggestion (to all): Have shooting session taped. See if that weak-hand finger dangling all alone out there on that hooked trigger guard actually stays there during the firing of gun.
And who knows what else might be learned.....


I have found it easier to collect more data before I decide, so that I know more before I decide.

[Magyar]

You should do a little more research.

You are deluding yourself if you don't think equipment matters...We are not talking about a "mano o mano" where all the competitors are on equal footing like in a track meet..When you add outside variables to any contest; results will change dramatically.
Ask Mas how many times fellow officers at a PPC match viewed his equipment and just turned and walked away knowing they didn't have a chance?
Ask Mickey Fowler, 3-time Bianchi Cup winner how he needed an extra inch on his barrels and extra mod's to have an edge on his competition.
Further, he stated that shooting stock pistols would lower shooting scores for all competitors....
Yes, practice and all the techniques are important; but that 2% you keep referring to all have thousands of $$$$ attached to their hip.
You need to do some research on your own....

[Lurper]

Don't have to do the research Mag, I was one of the top IPSC competitors in the 80's and 90's. I shot the major matches on the circuit and was there and involved with many of the epuipment and technique changes.

The Bianchi Cup has nothing to do with IPSC.

Put a stock gun in the hands of a true Grandmaster and they will still clean everyone else's clock. Even those with open class guns.
People who claim it is the equipment and not the shooter are those who truly don't get it. They have neither the drive nor discipline to achieve such a level. Nor do they have the comprehension to even understand what it takes to get to that level. They will continue to blame other people's equipment for their own lack of achievement, never realizing that the answer lies within themselves.

Don't think it's the technique? Watch the video I posted "Bill Drill Revisited", that is 1.71 seconds, 6 "A" hits at 7 yards, from the holster, with a stock Taurus PT1911 and full power loads. Tell me how that is the equipment. Could I shoot it faster with my race gun? Sure, but not a whole lot and that has more to do with the race gun being .38 Super than anything else. I could shoot it faster with the Taurus if I did 10 -15 runs and took the best.

You are correct that equipment makes a difference, but it doesn't make winners out of runners up, nor does it convert an average shooter into a grandmaster. The same people win over and over because they have a better technique. It has nothing to do with $$$ or equipment.

[Para Bellum]

However, if you have haabituated yourself to wrapping that finger out an inch or so ahead of your firing hand's trigger finger and parallel to it -- and then, in an emergency, find yourself with a picked-up .25 auto that points low -- the position in which you've habituated yourself to place that support hand index finger can now put it directly in front of the muzzle of the much smaller, lower-pointing gun.

...I am very likely to shoot one handed in an "emergency, find yourself with a picked-up .25 auto" - situation. And for that rare case, if I shoot the tip of my finger off with a .25 but manage to survive with that tool of combat, that still would be a good deal to me. Especially if on the other side that makes me faster and more precise with the G26 I do carry 24/7/365 and don't even have to pick up.

Thank you very much folks, I am impressed by the dynamics of my little question.

I honor all replies and recommendations and just peacefully say that I am not convinced to proceed as I have been doing.
DVC.

[Charles S]

There is no right or wrong way, there is the way that works for you.

That statement reeks, I suppose there are no winners are losers either.

In real life there is a correct way and a wrong way, just because your way is not correct does not make it correct. In real life there are winners and losers also.

you are deluding yourself if you don't think equipment matters..

Equipment matters, but I bet a master class shooter would out shoot anyone with poor technique with their own gun on the shooters best day and the grand masters worst.

Equipment matters when it comes to two masters class shooters competing, not when a great shooter competes with the average Joe...especially one with no training and little if any directed practice.

You are deluding yourself if you think that just anyone can shoot with a masters class shooter if only they used their gun. One of my instructors is Jerry Miculeck his favorite 45 ACP is a stock S&W revolver, care to try to shoot against him?

I honor all replies and recommendations and just peacefully say that I am not convinced to proceed as I have been doing.

Why did you ask the question? I actually am quite surprised I have read your post for a long time and find you intelligent and quite reasonable. You have been told by experts that it is a poor technique and is actually unsafe and yet you persist to believe that your choice is best.

Just so you know it is unsafe. I have seen two shooters using that technique in the ER with lead in their finger after shooting a revolver with wad cutter loads. If the cylinder gap is too large and the timing is off you are asking for trouble.

For those of you who advocate this technique I have a question, what classes and training have you had? Did they advocate this this technique?

I would be willing to bet you have had little or know training.

Try a class with Ayoob, Farnam or Smith and see what they think, their classes are focused on combat not competition.

If you want to be faster try a course with Latham, Clark or Miculek and see what they advocate.

Para, if you are better than the majority of shooters I applaud you. At this point you should still strive to better yourself and improve upon what you can already do.

[Magyar]

It's strange how some people who have taken a course of instruction at a gun school seem to be an expert all of sudden...Name dropping, mentioning that some people do not have training & suggesting that some need to go to "school" so to speak.
When does the 2% all of sudden become "GrandMasters"? Comparing this class do the avge pistolero doesn't make sense in terms of an argument.
You take the real 2%, shooting stock .45's off the shelf with WWB 230gr FMJ, with the guy who's shooting fairly regularly; sorry, not much difference.
Besides, when the "perp" is hit in the K-Zone he's not going to know if your were 2" to the right on your shot....
I suggest that some of you "Bullseye" shooters need some training....
Lurper, I was wondering when you were going to work that video in your post..Bill's Drill is a waste of time & ammo by anyone's stds....Anyone w/o arthritic hands can do the same, so what?
Chas.S, there are people that post on these sites that have training you can only imagine w/o suggesting that others do the same...

[Charles S]

You take the real 2%, shooting stock .45's off the shelf with WWB 230gr FMJ, with the guy who's shooting fairly regularly; sorry, not much difference.

Sorry you are absolutely incorrect. I have seen what the top shooters can and do do with stock guns and I was very impressed. The average guy cannot even come close. I live quite close to Mr. Miculek, Mr Clark, and Ms. K. Clark Miculek. I have seen all of the above shoot with stock guns. Mr. Miculeck's truck gun is a stock Ruger Speed Six. I promise you that the average shooter cannot even come close to what he can do with that gun.

Don't take my word for it. Take Mr. Miculeck's class, he generally uses a 1911 with less tuning than mine, shoot against him and see how you do.

Chas.S, there are people that post on these sites that have training you can only imagine w/o suggesting that others do the same...

What exactly is your point? That it it inappropriate to advocate training; or that those with training should not advocate that others get training; or that there are those who don't need training.

There are also plenty of other experts with no, imagined, or nebulous training that post.

You never answered my question. LOL. I doubt you ever will.

For those of you who advocate this technique I have a question, what classes and training have you had? Did they advocate this this technique?

I realize my training is incomplete, that is why I continue to take classes, to read books on training, to read this board, to shoot both self defense oriented practice, and when I have time competition, and to realize that I still have a lot to learn. IMHO self defense is not a goal, but a path in which one strives to keep the tenets of self defense in mind (for example being alert), trains both physically and mentally in a multidisciplinary approach to self defense.

[Lurper]

You take the real 2%, shooting stock .45's off the shelf with WWB 230gr FMJ, with the guy who's shooting fairly regularly; sorry, not much difference.

You really need to get out more. I shoot with hundreds of people a week, many of them "regular" shooters and there is a huge different between the 2%ers and the rest.

Bill's Drill is a waste of time & ammo by anyone's stds....Anyone w/o arthritic hands can do the same, so what?

Umm . . . let's see, the ability to hit the "A" zone 6 times in under 2 seconds from the draw. Yeah, that doesn't have much to do with practical shooting or shooting skill does it? :barf: Come to think of it, a rank beginner can do that.

As far as the Bill Drill goes, your comment shows your clear lack of knowledge about both the drill and practical shooting in general. It is an excellent sight and trigger skill builder.

Don't take this as a personal attack Mag, but you constantly make comments that have no basis in reality. Like the ones about light loads, light springs, etc.. None of that is true. As has been pointed out several other times in other threads, in IPSC the power factor of every competitor is checked. No one shoots light loads. That was part of the principles the sport was founded on. Yet you still make those claims! You really should do more research.

The best shooters are the best shooters period. Not because of equipment, not because of money, not because of any inherent ability, but because of hard work and determination. What makes them the best is their technique.



One thing the video does though is proves that I can do what I claim I can. I haven't seen you back up your boasts.

My apologies Para for hijacking your thread. Do what you think works, but just because your local GM does it doesn't mean it is a valid technique. You aren't the first person to travel down that road.

[Para Bellum]

I honor all replies and recommendations and just peacefully say that I am not convinced to proceed as I have been doing.

Why did you ask the question? I actually am quite surprised I have read your post for a long time and find you intelligent and quite reasonable. You have been told by experts that it is a poor technique and is actually unsafe and yet you persist to believe that your choice is best.

I generally don't accept experts or authority for their names or functions, I only accept good arguments. I am just not convinced and wanted to find out why some people recommend not to do it. And now, after to the kind participation of many folks here, I am still not convinced

Just so you know it is unsafe. I have seen two shooters using that technique in the ER with lead in their finger after shooting a revolver with wad cutter loads. If the cylinder gap is too large and the timing is off you are asking for trouble.

I don't shoot revolvers. Only Glocks. This is especially about the Glock 26. With the G19 and G17 I didn't notice improvement with the finger on the trigger bar because those guns have a three-finger-grip.

For those of you who advocate this technique I have a question, what classes and training have you had? Did they advocate this this technique?

It doesn't matter who teaches you. E.g. I train once a week with an IPSC Grandmaster who frequently wins Level III torunaments and on good days, I beat him on one stage. So what? If we both were wrong in a specific issue? If Eric Grauffel were wrong on a specific issue? Being #1 in the world wouldn't make his position on that issue right, would it. Thats why I asked here. I was looking for arguments and not for status.

I would be willing to bet you have had little or know training.

Para, if you are better than the majority of shooters I applaud you. At this point you should still strive to better yourself and improve upon what you can already do.

Thanks, I do. That's why I keep discussing here. If we wouldn't question the state-of-the-art of today, there wouldn't be any improvement tomorrow.

[Charles S]

Para,

Since you only shoot Glocks I personally don't see safety as an issue for you. Since you are shooting and beating on a stage a IPSC Grandmaster the weak finger on the Trigger guard is obviously working for you.

I used to shoot this way with an auto (not a revolver after seeing the injuries in the ER), but the individuals I have trained with corrected me. My times improved after abandoning the technique, and adopting a grip that is almost exactly like what Lurper illistrates (I lock my weak wrist with my weak thumb along, but under the slide). We are all individuals, and what works for you may not work for me and vice versa.

I assume from your response your training is with the Grand Master. I encourage you to diversify, take classes from others and you will continue to grow and evolve from your exposure to other shooters. For a competition focus the Chapman Academy is excellent, as is Mr. Miculek's school. If you have already done this again I applaud you. I am not currently shooting competitively due to time constraints (two young kids and an intensive MS program plus work), but even if I was I am not anywhere close to shooting on a GM level even with the training I have had.

Good luck, I enjoyed the discourse, IMHO there is nothing wrong with disagreement. We can all learn from others.

[Magyar]

My apologies Para for hijacking your thread

That's nice..You didn't apologize to me when you hijacked my thread by attaching an amusing video to your post...It had nothing to do with what I was professing...BTW, Bill's Drill has nothing to do with the real world...If you are not seeking cover after the 1st & 2nd shot; you've got a serious problem..This drill (Give Wilson credit) is a skill that is overly-exaggerated and most serious shooters still claim it's a waste...
Any poster, that includes Chas. S., that uses self-promotion, a.k.a, "tooting one's horn" to lend credence to an argument in all liklihood is not too secure. No one cares about one's experiential level since much of it is pure, unadulterated BS...Whether you are next-door neighbor to Clint Smith, Gabe Suarez, Jerry Usher, or whoever is appropriately called "name-dropping": a propaganda technique....
I will repeat again, a Grand Master, is at the pinnacle. Talk about the guy who finishes 29th and give him a factory format pistol with nice heavy loads...Now we're talking about the 2% that you suggested...Equipment, ammo, does make a difference...I give Mas credit for arguing decades ago about evening the playing field, at least in PPC competition, by using stock formats for all competitors...
If Para uses the weak index finger w/guard; more power to him....

[Charles S]

that uses self-promotion, a.k.a, "tooting one's horn" to lend credence to an argument

I am not tooting my own horn. I am providing a reference for my opinions to show that they are based upon the expertise of others and not on ignorance. Where I was educated it was stressed upon me to give credit to individuals for their ideas and work. I try my best to give credit to others for their expertise and for the work they have done. It is not to drop names, but I do reference the information I provide. I have given actual bibliographical information in post before. I am not surprised you did not recognize that fact.

When I learn something, I try to give credit to the person I learned from.

I have no agenda. I am interested in providing accurate information regarding self defense and shooting and providing individuals with the resources necessary to obtain training and become proficient in shooting and self defense if that is their desire. I do not claim to be the one to provide the training necessary, but I can direct them to those who can. I have and will be happy to recommend instructors to anyone who is interested.

I am not providing propaganda; every bit of information I have provided is based upon the teaching of respected experts in the fields of self defense and shooting. I provided the names of the experts for others to decide if the information is credible.

Again, you did not answer my question. Upon what is your opinion based?

You never answered my question. LOL. I doubt you ever will.

Quote:
For those of you who advocate this technique I have a question, what classes and training have you had? Did they advocate this this technique?

[Lurper]

It's simple Mag. Some of us are actually qualified to offer an opinion, others are not. On the internet, everyone has an opinion to offer. Most are exactly like what they say opinions are like.
However, I have a unique level of experience and ability that I chose to share with some here for free, even though others pay me to teach them. I do that because I want to help people become the best shooter they can. If I can save them some of the pain, aggravation, frustration and expense of learning then unlearning, I am glad to. They can choose whether to take the advice or not. I have been fortunate enough to have been one of the best shooters in the sport. I was taught by and shot with the best (and still do). I was sponsored by many companies, am qualified to teach many different classes and have in fact taught thousands including civilans, LE and military. You can call that self promotion if you like. I call it providing bona-fides so that those who are serious about improving their technique don't have to spend time and money trying to sort through all of the Bull[color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] to find the pearls. Again, it goes back to who do you want to listen to? The internet ace or someone who is a professional and does it for a living?