Sierra MatchKings for hunting

[wileybelch]

Does anybody have any first hand experience with Sierra MatchKings on game of any kind? I know Sierra disclaims the use of MatchKings for hunting, but does anyone know exactly why? Whether groundhogs or deer or elk, putting a reasonable (appropriate weight) bullet in the right place ought to be deadly. Any thoughts?

[mete]

Simply that the MATCH King is designed for target shooting and the GAME King is made for hunting.
Ideally the match bullet should have a long sharply pointed shape .The "Hollow Point" is there so that the bullet is not fragile [bent or broken points are inaccurate ] and it's far easier to make. The HP is not designed for expansion on game !!! ..Some people just can't read ! Don't you think the manufacturer knows what he's doing ? This question keeps coming up but shouldn't.

[Mobuck]

I feel there are plenty of hunting type bullets that are sufficiently accurate that "match" bullets should NOT be used for hunting.
I use Nosler 155 HPBT to shoot coyotes and have found they don't kill well or quickly unless bone is hit. I did actually shoot a deer with those ONCE, aiming to hit the shoulder bone. The effect was impressive but the next attempt was by another family member who failed to hit significant bone resulting in a lost animal. I stopped that practice immediately.
Use Ballistic Tips, they're nearly as accurate and kill medium sized animals well.

[Bart B.]

Deleted

[NoSecondBest]

Based on FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE as requested rather than internet expertise, I can tell you that they do work very well on deer sized animals. I know what the box says but the performance on several average sized whitetails was quite satisfactory. I know several others who have shot deer with them and their results were the same as mine. That being said, there are a good number of other bullets out there that can be chosen that won't start an arguement. Deer just aren't that hard to kill.

[Bart B.]

Sierra's caution for not using their HPMK bullets is based on first hand experiences based on facts from hunters using them and not getting decent expansion. And it's the longer ranges where their match bullets' failed to expand. Of course they'll expand at shorter ranges and Sierra knows that. But their pure lead cores are a bit soft for proper expansion like their harder cored hunting bullets are. Even FMJ non-expanding bullets kill game just as dead if placed properly. Few supporters of HPMK's in hunting give all the important conditions of their use.

[AllenJ]

I have no first hand experience but do have a good friend and co-worker who used them one time. Four shots, four holes, no expansion at all. He got the deer but it went a long way before expiring.

[globemaster3]

Gents, can we take a knee for a second?

Pulled from Sierra's website, here is what they say about their Matchking line (copied from http://www.sierrabullets.com/resourc...fm#matchking):

MatchKing Bullets: This is the classification for Sierra's pre-eminent target bullets. The driving motivation for the design of each MatchKing bullet is accuracy. These bullets have very thin jackets drawn to an exacting concentricity standard of 0.0003 in maximum variation, and their weight is held to within ± 0.3 grain. All MatchKing have a hollow point design with a very small meplat for high ballistic coefficient. The majority of these bullets have a boat tail shape to further minimize drag and improve ballistic coefficient. They are manufactured to the very highest quality standards. Their accuracy has been acclaimed worldwide, and they have been used to win more target competitions than all target bullets from other manufacturers combined. Although some of these bullets have been used for hunting, Sierra recommends them only for target shooting.

Now, here is that last sentence again for emphasis:
Although some of these bullets have been used for hunting, Sierra recommends them only for target shooting.

If the manufacturer of the bullet is telling you they don't recommend it for hunting (since they are only recommended for target shooting), then why would you want to shoot them at a big game animal? Anecdotal proof aside, when the bullet fails to yield an ethical kill (which sounds likely at some point), and it was not designed for the purpose you are using it for, are you going to blame the bullet or your poor choice?

I'm with Bart, mete, and Mobuck on this. Why with all the excellent hunting bullets out there would you choose a target bullet that the manufacturer recommends against using?

[JohnKSa]

Why with all the excellent hunting bullets out there would you choose a target bullet that the manufacturer recommends against using?

Pretty common human behavior. A little thought will provide numerous examples of humans doing things that are clearly inadvisable and also of many of those same folks actively trying to get others to follow their example.

[bamaranger]

Wiley, sent you a PM. regards match bullets on hogs, but there are better choices.

But, on ground hogs, my HB 22-250 really likes Sierras 52 gr match bullet, and they kill ground hogs and crows just fine. In close, under 100, they seem near explosive, farther out, not near as destructive. But results in dead crows and ground hogs with any decent hit.

[wileybelch]

If AllenJ's experience is right and consistent, can we say that the MatchKings behave as 'solids' for hunting purposes. Thanks, Bart, for the paperpunching background, but I'm looking for field experiences, not Camp Perry.

[Old Stony]

I have been taking a friend with me deer hunting for the past 5 yrs. and he almost always ends up tracking them into the woods after putting a bullet through one @ only 100 yds.. I finally realized he was using the Sierra 168 match bullets and got him to change. He switched up to his .257 Roberts using factory ammo and now drops them where they are standing.
Now I don't have to drag myself through the woods helping him track and drag wounded deer.

[psalm7]

Its been my expierience that they expand very well and create a wond channel as good as any hunting bullet if you are pushing them around 3000 fps . That is the 178 Gr .308 in .300 Win Mag .

[JohnKSa]

If AllenJ's experience is right and consistent, can we say that the MatchKings behave as 'solids' for hunting purposes.

We most certainly can not say that.

The point is that Sierra doesn't do any testing on them at all to insure that they behave consistently in a target medium because that's not part of the bullet's intended use.

So one MatchKing bullet weight in one caliber might act like a solid at one velocity, might expand at a different velocity and might blow up/fail at a different velocity or if a shot is taken closer than expected. Assuming you went to the trouble to figure all that out for that particular bullet, trying to take that information and apply it to a different MatchKing bullet weight, or a different caliber, or other velocities would almost certainly not be productive.

And since Sierra isn't signing up to provide any sort of consistent performance in terms of penetration or expansion, you're not even guaranteed that the next lot of the "same" bullet you've been using with good success will work the same as it used to in the next batch of handloads you make with the new lot. Sierra might change the lead alloy of the core, the hardness of the lead core or the thickness of the jacket, etc. at any time and without notice. None of those things are important to them (nor do they expect them to be important to their customers) as long as the accuracy specifications are met.

The takeaway is that Sierra MatchKing bullets are a total unknown quantity when it comes to terminal performance. The best you can say is that if you buy a large batch of them in one caliber and bullet weight, all from the same lot, and take the time to carefully characterize their terminal performance at the range of velocities and shooting distances you intend to use them, then you probably have a pretty good idea how that particular lot will perform at those velocities and distances.

[wileybelch]

Johnksa
That's exactly why I posted this question. Sierra has no official data to offer us on this subject. So I thought I would pose the question to real world hunters hoping to find some data, not opinion!, we could all use to assess the MKs in the field. So far, the responses have been very interesting, AND DIVERSIFIED, on the terminal performance of MKs. I hope more hunters offer their experiences with them on The Firing Line.
Over the last 50yrs Sierra has at least doubled the offerings of the MatchKing product. So maybe there is a place in the field for all those match bullets sitting on the shelf between competition seasons.

[JohnKSa]

Sierra has no official data to offer us on this subject.

If that were the only problem, then your idea would make sense. It’s not the only problem and it’s certainly not the main problem.

The MAIN problem is that Sierra doesn’t make any effort to and has no reason to insure good, or even consistent terminal performance in the MatchKing line.

So I thought I would pose the question to real world hunters hoping to find some data, not opinion!, we could all use to assess the MKs in the field.

This strategy is not going to be productive for the reasons I provided in my previous post.

Since Sierra makes no attempt to characterize or control the terminal performance of the line or provide consistent terminal performance in the MatchKing line, there is absolutely NO reason to believe that the terminal performance of one particular type (caliber & weight) MatchKing bullet provides useful insight in to the terminal performance of a different type of MatchKing bullet.

Furthermore, because the terminal performance of the MatchKing line is a non-issue for Sierra, there is no reason for them to insure that the terminal performance of the line stays the same over time. There is absolutely no reason for them to avoid varying manufacturing parameters if those changes would save money or improve manufacturing efficiency as long as those parameters have no effect (or have a beneficial effect) on the accuracy. Any such parameter changes could have a profound effect on terminal performance.

That means that even if it were possible to fully characterize the terminal performance of one particular type of MatchKing bullet (caliber & weight), the next lot of that particular type of bullet from Sierra could have completely different terminal performance characteristics.

So far, the responses have been very interesting, AND DIVERSIFIED, on the terminal performance of MKs.

And, for the reasons stated, useless for your intended purposes.

Until Sierra commits to insuring consistent terminal performance in the MatchKing line:

1. It will not be possible to accurately draw general conclusions about the terminal performance of the MatchKing line based on the performance of one or two types of MatchKing bullets.

2. It will not be possible to accurately assume that the terminal performance of the MatchKing line is consistent from one manufacturing lot to the next.

[Para72]

Depending on caliber sierra makes a HPBT game king that is based off of the match king.

[HiBC]

Why would anybody even want to?

The idea behind hunting ethically is a clean,quick kill.If I am Sierra,and I believe my bullets are good for hunting,Ill say so and sell more bullets.

They tell me the bullets are not for hunting,I listen.I listen because I want to give the animal a quick,clean death.

"They told me not to so I am going to because I am Special!!" Weird.

Match the BC and velocity to a bullet designed for hunting.

To subject the animal to a slow,miserable death ...why?Anarchy?Defiance of being told not to?Stunt?So you can say "Sierra told me not to but I did it so I'm smarter about Sierra than Sierra is?

Please give me a rational reason to not take their word for it.

Oh and on assuming they will work as "solids".Quite wrong!!The bullets termed "solids" are designed for predictable,reliable deep,bone breaking penetration on dangerous game.You go right ahead with a MK on a cape buffalo.I'll watch from a distance.

[Double Naught Spy]

Personally, I do not care what a product was "designed" to do. Just because it was designed for one thing does not mean that it is not good for another. What it was designed for only reflects design intent. Turns out, some products are poor for their designed intent, though they function very well elsewhere. The classic example is Viagra. It was not designed for erectile dysfunction.

The Sierra Matchking was designed for accuracy and unlike Viagra, is being manufactured and sold under that design guise. As noted by JohnKSa, that is the product line they are maintaining is for accuracy, not terminal performance. Even if you get a batch and you think it works well for terminal performance, that doesn't mean it wasn't changed in the next batch, maintaining or improving accuracy, but failing miserably at terminal performance. Maybe it just acts like a solid and they change things up and it acts like a frangible. That could royally suck. Other varieties of match ammo do this - act more like frangibles. If the best you can hope for is behaving like FMJ, why would you choose this for hunting? It is a pricy way to go to get FMJ performance.

Again, why bother with them for hunting? There are plenty of very accurate hunting loads out there that have designed, tested, and accepted terminal performance.

[jimbob86]

If AllenJ's experience is right and consistent, can we say that the MatchKings behave as 'solids' for hunting purposes.

Maybe ..... in some calibers (I'd guess large-ish) and at certain velocity levels (I'd guess relatively lowish), they may act as a solid ...... at other velocities (high), they act like like a thin jacketed, soft cored varmit bullet ...... maybe.

My thoughts: If you wait all year for what may be ONE shot at the biggest buck you've ever seen, or even one shot at the only buck you'll see all season ...... why on earth would not do everything you can to eliminate all the variables that you can, to increase the odds of your success? Are you seriously that lazy that you can not make the effort to work up a good load with a bullet that was designed specificly for the task at hand? If so, there is factory ammo that uses such bullets, readily available on the shelf of most every outdoor/gun/hardware/farm supply store ...... most anyplace that sells rifle ammunition ...... and there are many brands and bullet styles to choose from...... find one that shoots well in your gun.

[reynolds357]

The match king is an awesome hunting bullet for non dangerous game; assuming you are using a big enough bullet for the task.
Compare the Match King to the Berger Vld hunting. As far as that goes, compare the VLD hunting to the VLD match. Difference might shock many.

I have shot the match kings on deer from the .264 Win mag and the 7 Rem mag. They definitely do not behave like solids at those velocities. They behave like grenades. Massive destruction.

[jimbob86]

They definitely do not behave like solids at those velocities. They behave like grenades. Massive destruction.

Even started at 3400 f/sec, they are not going fast enough by the time they get to 400 yards to reliably "grenade" like they would at 100 yards.

[reynolds357]

They grenade pretty good at 400.

[TimSr]

I'd like to hear the conspiracy theory on which the idea that Sierra would keep the Matchking's awesome big game performance a secret and recommend against using them is based.

They make more money off of Gamekings and they steer you to them out of "corporate greed"?

They have union engineers, and recommending a match bullet on big game is was "not in his job despcription"?

Admitting that the Matchking is a great big game bullet would make the enginners who designed the Gameking feel bad?

The Matchking's big game potential is kept as an exclusve secret, and is only divulged to favored company executives, politicians, and lobbyists to reward their support of the profitable corporate structure?

Sierra engineers really don't know all that much about the capabilities of the bullets they design, as we all know the good ones with the real expertise left their salaries behind to post it on internet forums for free out of social consciousness?

[natman]

I can understand why the OP might want to gather real world experience with Match Kings, but that means he'll only get feedback from people who were ill-informed / bullheaded / contrary enough to use Match Kings on game in the first place.

Bullet makers spend a lot of time and effort to get their game bullets to expand properly and still hold together. Why anyone would want to use a bullet where the manufacturer didn't spend any effort at all on terminal performance and explicitly recommends against its use on game escapes me. It's not like there's a shortage of good game bullets out there. Any tiny improvement in accuracy a match bullet might offer is irrelevant to hunting and a poor trade off for reliable terminal performance.