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Old October 6, 2016, 06:39 PM   #1
snowman748
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BRNO Mauser in 300 Win Mag value?

I picked up a Mauser in 300 Win Mag in a trade a few months back, I did some work to it and I'm debating selling it. Not really hurting for money or anything just would like to have a little extra money to help with Christmas and invest in my other guns. What would be a fair asking price on something like this (details below)? I understand since it's been highly sporterized there isn't any "collectibility" to the rifle but it's still worth something right?

It looks to be a Czech BRNO 98/22 Mauser (picture of proof marks before Cerakote and stock work done.)
*it's had the mag well enlarged to accept 300 Win Mag (3 shot rifle)
*it's had the bolt head and extractor modded to accept 300 Win Mag
* it's been rebarreled with I believe a 24" Winchester barrel
*it's been threaded for a muzzle break
*it's been put in a synthetic Winchester "Ramline" stock
*it's had the bolt handle cut and welded and bent to clear a scope.
*the receiver has been drilled, tapped and had scope mounts installed
*the safety has been enlarged and sloped to clear a scope.
*the barrel, action, trigger guard assembly, etc have been Cerakoted black (professionally)
*the stock has been painted to look like a Texas flag with automotive paint (professionally) $I live in Texas$
*has 1" scope rings sporting a BSA Platnium 8-32x44 scope
*has a Harris Bi-Pod installed
*has a Decelerator installed
*the bolt assembly has all been polished
*soon it will be sporting a Timney featherweight trigger

Note I didn't do most of the gunsmith work to the gun, just did a little work to make it look nicer.

NOTE. This isn't an ad to sell the rifle, ONLY to see what it is worth. Can't sell it at the moment anyway because it's making a trip to a gun show at the end of the month to be shown off.



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Old October 6, 2016, 06:55 PM   #2
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Kinda purty.

In spite of all the work done to the rifle, converted military Mausers don't generally sell for much unless top tier parts are used or they are done by a well-known and well-respected rifle smith. I would guess it would sell for about $450 with the scope, about $350-$400 without. Several strikes against it, in my book: action wrench marks on the receiver, take-off barrel, Ram-Line stock, and the BSA scope among them.
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Old October 6, 2016, 07:28 PM   #3
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I'm not a big fan of BSA scopes either but it's what came with the rifle. Never heard of Ram line till I got this rifle
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Old October 6, 2016, 08:51 PM   #4
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Perhaps you could set up an interesting display and sell $1.00 raffle tickets and the winner gets the rifle. Who would buy that thing anyway? It has 5 strikes against it for my tastes. But hey, it's definitely an attention-getter.
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Old October 6, 2016, 11:54 PM   #5
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I'm thinking Scorch may be a tad forgiving with his value, if I were at a show trying to hit that rifle I couldn't give over 250.00 for it, because the Smith who did this was probably in his build part of school, or maybe just threw it together with stuff he had laying around.
You wouldn't make much money on the Timney, so hold that cash, and what I mean is a Timney Sportsman is 55.00 to 60.00, so trying to add another 60.00 to that rifle would make it tougher to sell.
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Old October 8, 2016, 07:12 AM   #6
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Very hard to sell a gun that is highly customized and especially one that is highly personalized. The muzzle brake (not break) is a real turn off for most shooters. The patriotic theme will appeal to only a few potential buyers. In 300 Magnum it's a very specialized rifle. The older Mauser action isn't popular with modern shooters. You put it on Gunbroker to reach a wide market and hope somebody wants it.

I have a couple of rifles that I personalized and I did knowing I wouldn't be able to sell them.
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Old October 8, 2016, 11:28 AM   #7
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Too much scope for a .300 Mag hunting rifle. That one retails for around $200, so it's fairly low end kit. Don't bother with the Timney either. Won't increase the value.
Like SaxonPig says, custom stuff is hard to sell.
"...The patriotic theme..." Think it's Cuba or Texas? snicker.
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Old October 8, 2016, 09:31 PM   #8
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That proof doesn't look like anything I've ever seen on a Winchester barrel...looks military to me.
No details on the safety mod...two position Buehler? I can't see anything from the pics and safety mods can cost thirty bucks to three hundred.
If it weren't for the brake that scope would've had its guts shattered within a few dozen rounds. It cheapens the rifle. Take it off and sell the rifle without it.

Lose the paint job. Give it a nice Krylon Camo job instead....

I strongly disagree that a brake, especially on a .300 Win Mag is a "turn off" for most shooters.
Damned if I'd want to spend a day at the range with that lightweight stick with no brake.

With that I'd guess $250-$300 depending on barrel condition, quality of the brake and accuracy. Unless it's being sold as a project rifle, buyers want to know how it shoots. If it's a sub moa rifle prove it with some targets and load data.
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Old October 9, 2016, 01:46 AM   #9
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A rifle like that is worth more parted out than as a complete rifle.

You can probably get 150-200 for the sported action alone at a gun show or online auction. The barrel can go for around 75. The stock, maybe 40 bucks. The scope? No clue.

Still, if she shoots good, and you like her, keep her. She was someone's labor of love at one point.

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Old October 9, 2016, 03:02 AM   #10
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You see? The raffle idea wasn't such a bad idea after all!
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Old October 9, 2016, 10:37 AM   #11
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Old October 9, 2016, 02:31 PM   #12
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....lose the brake, lose the bipod, lose the stock, lose the scope, lose the caliber, and what else is there?
OK, live with the caliber, but replace the stock with Walnut and add a Leupold....
I don't think you could give that one to me. But some kid might really like it.
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Old October 17, 2016, 07:06 PM   #13
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Sell that action. It was a military action that was designed and built to use 8mm Mauser cartridges and 8mm Mauser cartridge pressures.

I have not found an explicit statement to the design loads that Paul Mauser used. SAAMI and CIP standards were established well after his death. However there is information about the proof pressures used in pre WW1 M98 actions.

Rifle Magazine Issue 159 May 1995 Dear Editor pg 10
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazin...159partial.pdf

Quote:
Ludwig Olsen :

Mauser 98 actions produced by Mauser and DWM were proofed with two loads that produced approximately 1000 atmosphere greater pressure than normal factory rounds. That procedure was in accordance with the 1891 German proof law. Proof pressure for the Mauser 98 in 7 X57 was 4,050 atmospheres (57, 591 psi). Pressure of the normal 7 X 57 factory load with 11.2 gram bullet was given in Mauser’s 1908 patent boot as 3,050 atmosphere, or 43, 371 pounds.

While many Mausers in the 1908 Brazilian category will likely endure pressures considerably in excess of the 4,050 atmospheres proof loads, there might be some setback of the receiver locking shoulder with such high pressures
Kunhausen shows similar numbers in his book : “The Mauser Bolt Actions, A Shop Manual”

Rifle & Carbine 98: M98 Firearms of the German Army from 1898 to 1918 Dieter

M98 Mauser service rifles underwent a 2 round proof at 4,000 atm gas pressure, 1 atm = 14.6 psi, 4000 atm = 58, 784 psia. Page 103. A comment on the metallurgy and process technology of the era, Dieter found records that indicated that the bolt lugs broke on 1:1000 of GEW98 service rifles used by the Bavarian Army Corp!

Gun Digest 1975 has an excellent article, “A History of Proof Marks, Gun Proof in German” by Lee Kennett.

Quote:
“The problem of smokeless proof was posed in a dramatic way by the Model 1888 and it commercial derivates. In this particular case a solution was sought in the decree of 23 July 1893. This provided that such rifles be proved with a government smokeless powder known as the “4,000 atmosphere powder”, proof pressure was 4,000 metric atmospheres or 58,000 psia. The 4000 atmosphere proof was standardized for the 1893 and continued after 1911.
The article indicates it was applied to the 1898. The 1939 German proof law called for proof at 130% of service load pressure. From Mauser Bolt Rifles by Ludwig Olsen, page 134, The maximum working pressure of the WW2 German 7.9 sS cartridge was 46, 926 psi. According to sources, this round was used in machine guns after WW1 and then shortly before WW2, became a universal issue round. Use in the K98 action had to have been examined, and the powers that be decided in the 1930's that use of this round which was 3,000 psia higher than the earlier version of the 8mm cartridge, to be low risk. And that was probably based on the improvement of metal quality and process technology from WW1. A proof pressure 7.9sS would be 61k psi.


From Cartridges of the World

8 mm case head diameter 0.470” Area 0.1735 square inches
300 Win Mag case head diameter 0.515” Area 0.2083 square inches

Bolt face loads

8mm (Mauser design loads) 0.1735 in ² X 43, 371 lbs/ in ² = 7, 525 lbs

300 Win Mag = 0.2083 in ² X 65,000 lbs/ in ² = 13, 539 lbs

The 300 Win Mag provides an 80% increase in bolt thrust over standard military loads.

Given that your military action is being subjected to loads that it was never designed or manufactured to handle, I would recommend getting rid of the thing before you crack a lug, have receiver set back, which will cause a case head failure.
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Old October 18, 2016, 05:44 AM   #14
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Everything Slamfire writes is true...but...

There is some missing context.

1, proof testing before the advent of electro piezo resistors and digital circuits was all done via the copper crush method, or "CUP" for copper units of pressure. This becomes important because a modern 308 Win can easily have 57,000 psi (electronic confirmed pressure) which LOOKS like a "proof load" of 57,000 psi (copper units of pressure) but simply isn't. The direct conversion between CUP and PSI is not really possible, and an M98 that can digest a steady diet of full power 8x57JS ammunition can definitely digest a steady diet of commercial 308 Win ammunition without developing lug setback.

2, the action in question is Czech, not German, and despite the same overall design you have a wide range of quality in M98 manufacture. As long as the bolt lugs weren't messed with (some home gunsmiths put grinding compound to get more lug contact) the case hardening should be in place to prevent bolt setback. In a Mauser 98 action, soft steel is the #1 cause of bolt lug setback, not a magnum rifle cartridge.

3, thousands upon thousands of M98 actions have been transformed into hunting rifles ranging from 22-250 to 458 Win Mag and everything in between. As long as the action is sound, the rifle will be quite safe to operate given standard ammunition, or handloads that are within standard pressures. One cannot assume that an action is unsafe simply because it started out as a military action. The M98 action is still manufactured by Zastava to this day, and offered in 300 Win Mag.

4, eventually, bolt lugs will fail on a rifle, it is just the nature of wear and tear. On an M4 it happens usually between 10k and 20k rounds, and that is with modern manufacturing and testing. A bolt that was manufactured back in the day when digital controls were science fiction, the quality of your bolt depends on the skill of the worker, on that day and at that time. But if your bolt hasn't failed yet, odds are it isn't going to fail any time soon, and if it does, that is the entire point of the third safety lug back by the bolt handle.

I hope this has provided some of the missing context.

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Old October 18, 2016, 07:02 AM   #15
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Quote:
thousands upon thousands of M98 actions have been transformed into hunting rifles ranging from 22-250 to 458 Win Mag and everything in between.
Some conversions are appropriate, and others are not. It is safe to say that any belted magnum conversion is not appropriate for an old military Mauser action.

Thousands upon thousands of drunk drivers make it home every day, that does not mean it is particularly wise to engage in risky behavior. I don't really care what thousands upon thousands of back yard gunsmiths did with old rifle actions, I have only one life, one set of eyes, one set of hands, and I am not interested in damaging any of the previously listed items. Risky people don't care and and good for them. But they are not going to drag me into the grave with them.


Quote:
As long as the action is sound, the rifle will be quite safe to operate given standard ammunition, or handloads that are within standard pressures.
So, you are guaranteeing these actions. Very nice of you.

Quote:
One cannot assume that an action is unsafe simply because it started out as a military action.
What you can be assured is that the manufacturers of old military actions never intended their actions to be used for cartridges exceeding the pressures that they were issued. You also don't know just how much use old military actions have been through. You also don't know what the future service life of one of these actions will be in its original cartridge or with an over pressure cartridge such as the 300 Win Mag.

Quote:
The M98 action is still manufactured by Zastava to this day, and offered in 300 Win Mag
Modern alloy steels provide a higher yield and fatigue life than the plain carbon steels used in period military actions. If Zastava produces this rifle in 300 Win Mag and it fails, and you lose body parts, you can go to court and ask for redress. You can't do that with old military actions.

So, what is your risk tolerance?
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Old October 18, 2016, 08:40 AM   #16
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Slamfire,

Quote:
So, you are guaranteeing these actions. Very nice of you.
That's what we call "projection" and it is a form of the "mind reading fallacy." Go back and read what I wrote again until you comprehend it for the words I wrote instead of the straw man argument you want to argue against.

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Old October 18, 2016, 01:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
Quote:
So, you are guaranteeing these actions. Very nice of you.
That's what we call "projection" and it is a form of the "mind reading fallacy." Go back and read what I wrote again until you comprehend it for the words I wrote instead of the straw man argument you want to argue against.
More to the point, how many Belted Magnum rifles do you have, built around military Mauser actions, and how many rounds have your fired through them?
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Old October 18, 2016, 03:36 PM   #18
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Ok, well I guess if I've been called to the carpet...

The one that comes most to mind is the 7mm Rem Mag with a McGowan barrel, really the first project I ever worked on with my father. Although I have a 416 Taylor in the works built around a Czech receiver (from a VZ24 with completely shot out barrel). I honestly don't know how many rounds have been through that 7mm Rem Mag, but it was up to several hundred a few years ago when I gave it to a friend, a 175gr SGK over IMR7828 in Win Brass with CCI 250 primers. No signs of lug setback, and I do check when I visit my buddy.

The other fun project I did was a Turk M38 into a 9.3x62, but that is because the Turk is a small shank so I didn't want to open it up to 375 H&H for a safari rifle. Not a belted magnum of course, but I include it to illustrate that I'm not a complete idiot about the strength and safety of an M98 pattern action.

I'm not as experienced as Clark when it comes to building hunting/target rifles on a Mauser action, but it isn't something I shy away from. My experience with the 98/22 and VZ24 actions is that they are some of the best to build on because they were manufactured in peacetime with darn good steel. The Turks have the softest steel, unless you keep them in a sedate 6.5x55 or 7x57 they will develop lug setback at 308 Win pressures because many of them weren't case hardened properly (I had the 9.3x62 receiver gas carbeurized to give it a proper heat treat so it wouldn't suffer from lug setback). Even milspec 8x57 will give you excessive lug setback in most Turks.

The Gew98 actions that I have worked on are almost as good as the Czech receivers, but a little rougher because WWI happened. The K98s I have are staying in milsurp form, or I did find one with a really nice barrel that is getting modified into a reproduction SSR sniper (1942 config with reproduction 2nd gen SSR and ZF39).

I've been itching to build another 300 Win Mag target rifle, since I sold the last Savage I had (at the time I only had a 200 yard range available to me, then I PCS'd to a post that had a 1k range open on weekends). And I have no problems building on a milsurp Mauser 98 action, although they aren't as cheap as they used to be (quite the shame).

So there you have it, feel free to tell me about how much more awesome you are.

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