Help me identify these black powder pistols and value

GaNightTrain · May 24, 2015, 11:32 AM

Can anyone tell me with these two pistols? The first I see it labeled as Colt 44 Cal, but the other I have nothing to go on.

Hawg · May 24, 2015, 11:51 AM

The first one is an 1860 Colt clone with late timing made in Italy in 1997. The second one looks like a CVA derringer kit gun.

Pahoo · May 24, 2015, 02:30 PM

Quote:

The second one looks like a CVA derringer kit gun.

Pretty much agree and I believe these were referred to as a Colonial Pistol or something like that. I would have a better Idea if the ramrod was not missing. Estimated value on this is $60.00 or maybe "slightly" more. ....

My S.W.A.G. on the Colt Clone, is $650.00 +. .....

Be Safe !!!

GaNightTrain · May 24, 2015, 03:47 PM

Thank you. I have a couple more black powder that I'm having difficulty in finding values for. I'll post separately so I can upload pics and keep my trains of thought on the rails.

Fingers McGee · May 24, 2015, 06:34 PM

The cased 1860 Army is probably one of the Pietta cased sets sold by Cabelas in the early 90s. I've had a couple of them; just not this particular one. The picture of the frame & date code is a little nuclear; but, it looks to be either BB (1992) or BF 1995. There should be some markings on top of and/or under the barrel or under the frame indicating the maker.

As to the third picture, the unfinished barrel with no front sight, trigger guard not inlet to the stock and the lock barely inlet lead me to believe that this is an unfinished CVA Colonial Pistol kit gun.

The cased 1860 w/shoulder stock could easily see $550 to $650. The colonial pistol is worth about $40 as an incomplete kit.

Hawg · May 24, 2015, 08:56 PM

The CVA is too short to be a colonial.

Fingers McGee · May 24, 2015, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawg

The CVA is too short to be a colonial.

Yeah, I was wondering if it might not be a Philadelphia Derringer instead of a Colonial; but the barrel looks too long to be a Philadelphia. It been years since I've had either one, so I'm only guessing.

noelf2 · May 26, 2015, 07:48 AM

It's a colonial pistol. I have one. Just looks shorter without the rammer.

Hawg · May 26, 2015, 08:20 PM

If it is they started making them shorter because the one I bought in the 70's was a lot longer. And mine had a snail breech instead of a drum.

Pahoo · May 27, 2015, 01:55 PM

Quote:

If it is

As Rambo would say; "Let it Go " .....

Be Safe !!!

noelf2 · May 27, 2015, 06:30 PM

From 1980 catalog:

noelf2 · May 27, 2015, 06:39 PM

Hawg is right though. In the mid to late 70's, the colonial was longer by a couple inches, rear sight was forward a bit more, had a different lock, and had a snail vs. drum breech. Not sure why they changed it. The older one looks better.

Bishop Creek · May 27, 2015, 08:39 PM

How can it be a "Colonial" pistol when it is percussion and not flintlock?

noelf2 · May 27, 2015, 09:26 PM

Converted perhaps?

Fingers McGee · May 27, 2015, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bishop Creek

How can it be a "Colonial" pistol when it is percussion and not flintlock?

Marketing. Not unlike .44 caliber 1851 Navies and Pietta's 1862 Police.

Pahoo · May 28, 2015, 09:54 AM

Quote:

How can it be a "Colonial" pistol when it is percussion and not flintlock?

I understand your exception to the word and yes, it's all about marketing. very much like many of the SideLock of the 80's that used the word; Hawken in their description when the better word was Plaines rifle. .....

Last year, I put another Colonial pistol kit, together. I don't think it stated that, on the barrel but the boxes were all marked as such. Funny thing is that you might see an identical M/L with a different "catchy" name. .....

Be Safe !!!

Captchee · May 30, 2015, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Hawg is right though. In the mid to late 70's, the colonial was longer by a couple inches, rear sight was forward a bit more, had a different lock, and had a snail vs. drum breech. Not sure why they changed it. The older one looks better.

because that gun wasn’t a CVA . They were made and marketed by Jukar of Spain .as a colonial pistol .
After they started producing for import by CVA they dropped the line and went just to making the CVA version which was cheaper to produce. jukar later sold out to Adesa if i recall ....

Hawg · May 30, 2015, 11:07 AM

Finally found a pic of the one I had and it is a little shorter than I remembered. It was my first and last attempt at a kit gun and didn't turn out well at all. It came in a box marked CVA Colonial so they must have made some. The only markings on the gun itself was Spain. When I built it the hammer didn't meet the nipple correctly and the instructions said it could be bent cold but when I tried it things broke. I came across it awhile back and bought a NOS CVA lock off ebay and while it fit, the hammer was off just like the old one. I ended up giving it to somebody for parts.

Captchee · May 30, 2015, 03:55 PM

. I dont know for fact but CVA mayhave bought out the Jukar stock . but the one i posted was marked jukar . had spain stamped on side . some that i sold also had Spain stamped on the bolster . once jukar stoped marketing and CVA began importing spanish made guns , the pistols became smaller the lock changed to the small maslin type . alot of these were also marked with Made in Dikar Spain not CVA

Captchee · May 31, 2015, 08:18 AM

i just noticed something and i had to go back and look through by old retail catalogs .
take a look at the brochure that noelf2 posted .
Note that the pistol on the box as well as the parts shown in front of the box , is not the pistol shown in the add .
its not that one is a cap and the one a flint . the one shown on the box is the early jukar as are the parts shown laid out in front of the box . while the one thats photographed is a later , shorter one with the newer lock and tumbler

don’t know how many times I have seen those boxes or that add and never noticed that before

noelf2 · May 31, 2015, 09:34 AM

I didn't notice that either, but you're right! Also, IIRC, the earlier colonial pistols came in a box that just said "CVA JUKAR" on it.

Pahoo · May 31, 2015, 10:46 AM

While doing some daily shopping, here is what I ran across ....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Powder...item3cfaa37a78

Be Safe !!!

Gaucho Gringo · May 31, 2015, 05:57 PM

WOW. I only paid $19.95 for one 40 years ago.

noelf2 · May 31, 2015, 06:59 PM

^^ Cumulative rate of inflation from then to now is 339.8%. So your $20 then is $88 now, and if you count the sales tax you probably paid, you spent closer to $100 and that was probably for a kit, and not a finished gun. A finished gun would be closer to $175 in today's money...

May 24, 2015, 06:34 PM	#5
Fingers McGee Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks Posts: 2,113	The cased 1860 Army is probably one of the Pietta cased sets sold by Cabelas in the early 90s. I've had a couple of them; just not this particular one. The picture of the frame & date code is a little nuclear; but, it looks to be either BB (1992) or BF 1995. There should be some markings on top of and/or under the barrel or under the frame indicating the maker. As to the third picture, the unfinished barrel with no front sight, trigger guard not inlet to the stock and the lock barely inlet lead me to believe that this is an unfinished CVA Colonial Pistol kit gun. The cased 1860 w/shoulder stock could easily see $550 to $650. The colonial pistol is worth about $40 as an incomplete kit. __________________ Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

May 26, 2015, 07:48 AM	#8
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	It's a colonial pistol. I have one. Just looks shorter without the rammer. __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

May 27, 2015, 06:30 PM	#11
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	From 1980 catalog: __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

May 27, 2015, 06:39 PM	#12
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	Hawg is right though. In the mid to late 70's, the colonial was longer by a couple inches, rear sight was forward a bit more, had a different lock, and had a snail vs. drum breech. Not sure why they changed it. The older one looks better. __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

May 27, 2015, 09:26 PM	#14
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	Converted perhaps? __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

May 24, 2015, 11:51 AM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	The first one is an 1860 Colt clone with late timing made in Italy in 1997. The second one looks like a CVA derringer kit gun.

May 24, 2015, 03:47 PM	#4
GaNightTrain Junior Member Join Date: May 24, 2015 Posts: 9	Thank you. I have a couple more black powder that I'm having difficulty in finding values for. I'll post separately so I can upload pics and keep my trains of thought on the rails.

May 24, 2015, 08:56 PM	#6
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	The CVA is too short to be a colonial.

May 26, 2015, 08:20 PM	#9
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	If it is they started making them shorter because the one I bought in the 70's was a lot longer. And mine had a snail breech instead of a drum.

May 27, 2015, 08:39 PM	#13
Bishop Creek Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Posts: 566	How can it be a "Colonial" pistol when it is percussion and not flintlock?

May 30, 2015, 11:07 AM	#18
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Finally found a pic of the one I had and it is a little shorter than I remembered. It was my first and last attempt at a kit gun and didn't turn out well at all. It came in a box marked CVA Colonial so they must have made some. The only markings on the gun itself was Spain. When I built it the hammer didn't meet the nipple correctly and the instructions said it could be bent cold but when I tried it things broke. I came across it awhile back and bought a NOS CVA lock off ebay and while it fit, the hammer was off just like the old one. I ended up giving it to somebody for parts.

May 30, 2015, 03:55 PM	#19
Captchee Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 2013 Posts: 439	. I dont know for fact but CVA mayhave bought out the Jukar stock . but the one i posted was marked jukar . had spain stamped on side . some that i sold also had Spain stamped on the bolster . once jukar stoped marketing and CVA began importing spanish made guns , the pistols became smaller the lock changed to the small maslin type . alot of these were also marked with Made in Dikar Spain not CVA

May 31, 2015, 08:18 AM	#20
Captchee Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 2013 Posts: 439	i just noticed something and i had to go back and look through by old retail catalogs . take a look at the brochure that noelf2 posted . Note that the pistol on the box as well as the parts shown in front of the box , is not the pistol shown in the add . its not that one is a cap and the one a flint . the one shown on the box is the early jukar as are the parts shown laid out in front of the box . while the one thats photographed is a later , shorter one with the newer lock and tumbler don’t know how many times I have seen those boxes or that add and never noticed that before Last edited by Captchee; May 31, 2015 at 08:23 AM.

May 31, 2015, 09:34 AM	#21
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	I didn't notice that either, but you're right! Also, IIRC, the earlier colonial pistols came in a box that just said "CVA JUKAR" on it. __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

May 31, 2015, 10:46 AM	#22
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	Interesting !!! While doing some daily shopping, here is what I ran across .... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Powder...item3cfaa37a78 Be Safe !!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

May 31, 2015, 05:57 PM	#23
Gaucho Gringo Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2007 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 366	WOW. I only paid $19.95 for one 40 years ago. __________________ 357 Taurus Gaucho, 22 Heritage RR, 2-Pietta 1858 44 NMA Remingtons, Pietta, Euroarms & ASM 36 1851 Navies, 31 Uberti 1849, 12 ga H&R Topper, 16 Ga Western Field, 43 Spanish Remington Rolling Block, 44 ASM Colt Walker, High Point C9 9mm, Winchester 1906 22, Rossi 62 22 rifle, Uberti 1860, H&A & IJ 32 S&W BreakTop, 36 Euroarms 1858, 32 H&R 04, 22mag NAA SS BP revolver, .44 Rodgers & Spencer, IJ 38 S&W BreakTop, IJ 22 Sealed 8

May 31, 2015, 06:59 PM	#24
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	^^ Cumulative rate of inflation from then to now is 339.8%. So your $20 then is $88 now, and if you count the sales tax you probably paid, you spent closer to $100 and that was probably for a kit, and not a finished gun. A finished gun would be closer to $175 in today's money... __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither. Last edited by noelf2; May 31, 2015 at 07:05 PM.

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