Frame material and the implications for service life.

[Pond, James Pond]

We often read the phrase "built like a tank" or "your grand-kids will be able to shoot it" etc when talking about how long a gun will last.

We've also probably all heard the claims of 100K+ rounds through a G17 or the like.

And so as I mull over whether getting a new pistol is a good idea and because simple decisions are soooo 2014, I added frame material to the mix of reasons to consider.

I had a poly gun (G19) where the slide ran on steel rails, albeit short ones. Now I have an all-steel gun where the slide and frame rails are full length.

The gun I am considering is steel slide, but alloy frame, for weight.

In absolute terms, I think a steel frame would last longer, but in real-life terms does it make any difference?
I mean what sort of round-count deficit are we talking about here?

I don't shoot big volumes. I can't afford to, but for those that do, does frame material come into the choosing process due to longevity concerns or is it really just a marketing thing in the long-run?

Finally what rounds counts have alloy-framed guns managed before the toil took its toll?

[jmr40]

Steel framed guns are proven and may well last the longest, lots of guns out there with 100,000+ round counts. Aluminum alloy will probably have the shortest life span. Numbers I've seen in the past were somewhere between 30,000-50,000 rounds before you might get frame breakage. But if you think about it, if you can afford that much ammo, you can afford to replace the gun. Not sure I'd let that influence my decision.

The better plastic guns have proven to be lighter than aluminum alloy, cheaper to produce and last at least as long as steel. There are several documented Glocks with over 300,000 rounds through them with only some small parts breakage. The frames are holding up just fine. There are fewer aluminum options than in the past and I don't see the trend reversing.

Most manufacturers and shooters will choose plastic over aluminum if they are looking at weight savings. I don't see the classic guns made with steel frames going anywhere, but I don't see much interest in new steel or aluminum designs either. S&W and Ruger have both stopped making aluminum framed guns and if the US military ever drops the Beretta I don't see it remaining in production.

[Snyper]

I once read somewhere the "average lifespan" of a firearm is around 400 years.

I read that before the advent of the polymer frames, but i suspect some polymers may have a longer lifetime than steel depending on storage conditions

[osbornk]

I wouldn't worry at all what the frame is made of. I think all of them will long outlive all of us and our children. I have both plastic and aluminum framed handguns and I haven't had and don't expect any problems.

I remember predictions of disaster in the 70s (I was in the car business) when they replaced fender liners and other parts made of steel with plastic. The plastic turned out to be better and more durable than plastic. They are now talking about the disaster it will be because the F-150 is now made of aluminum even though aluminum vehicles have been made for decades with good results.

[Brit]

First came across aluminum vehicles in Australia, Land Rovers, you could unbolt a fender, bolt an other one on (not that easy though!) but as I was leaving in 1968, the Toyota's were taking over.

[rock185]

Pond, I believe frame material does make a difference. I've owned polymer, alloy and steel. I prefer steel for longevity, and maintaining slide to frame fit with the autos,etc. I have sometimes carried alloy framed guns in 38 Spcl., 9MM or 45 ACP due to their lighter-than-steel weight. But though they may be carried, my alloy framed guns do not get shot a lot. I suspect that current polymer frames are more durable than alloy, though there will always be exceptions. My steel framed guns,with close slide-to-frame fit, seem to just get smoother with use, not looser. My aluminum alloy framed guns' slide to frame fit does loosen with use as the steel slide wears against the anodized surface treatment on the frame. My alloy framed Colt Commander, purchased new, cracked the frame after moderate use. I stop-drilled the crack and the Commander is still in the family and used occasionally. The frame did eventually continue to crack. I also saw two co-worker's early SIG P226 9MMs that had cracked the frames after just a few hundred rounds. I realize there is no free lunch, and steel will be heavier, but it is still the preferred all around choice of frame material for me.....ymmv

[Pond, James Pond]

I agree with those that the actual lifespan of an alloy framed gun is nothing to worry about, but the potential for play and therefore loss of accuracy before the gun fails all together is a more pertinent worry, for me in any case.

It seems that alloy tried to answer a question but polymer, arriving a short while later answered it better. I also think that alloy was there to satisfy the wants of "metal only for guns" crowd who still wanted a lighter gun. Since then I think the skepticism surrounding polymer has receded, making alloy an even less appealing choice.

On a personal level, taking my current possible purchases from the CZ line-up, I really don't see why CZ provide the compact as all steel with a safety, but then provide the decocker model as alloy framed. I'd much prefer the choice of frame material: the decocker in all-steel would be fabulous!

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Pond, James Pond

I agree with those that the actual lifespan of an alloy framed gun is nothing to worry about, but the potential for play and therefore loss of accuracy before the gun fails all together is a more pertinent worry, for me in any case.

It seems that alloy tried to answer a question but polymer, arriving a short while later answered it better. I also think that alloy was there to satisfy the wants of "metal only for guns" crowd who still wanted a lighter gun. Since then I think the skepticism surrounding polymer has receded, making alloy an even less appealing choice.

On a personal level, taking my current possible purchases from the CZ line-up, I really don't see why CZ provide the compact as all steel with a safety, but then provide the decocker model as alloy framed. I'd much prefer the choice of frame material: the decocker in all-steel would be fabulous!

The amount of ammo you would have to shoot to see a noticeable loss in accuracy would likely mean you could have purchased the firearm again many times over.

If you like the all steel compact, lower the hammer manually. I used to be adverse to this but recent experience has changed my mind.

[g.willikers]

Like most things, it depends on how much use it will get.
But the only frames that have failed, that I have personally witnessed, were aluminum.
But they were all used a lot, and regularly, by the owners.
Probably many thousands of rounds per year.
Every material has a lifespan, though.

[Ridgerunner-227]

From My experience Steel slide rails on the frame last much longer, whether in polymer inserts or part of the steel frame, than alloy slide rails. Alloy is strong but does not hold up to friction and wears much quicker.

"Built like a tank reminds" me of the Ruger Alloy frame P series pistols where they were coated and wear was not as fast as most other alloy frame rails that were not. Some great reliable pistols to say the least.

[Sweet Shooter]

Pond, If you're feeling better with the idea of steel frames the CZ's with slide inside, and the steel version of the Baby Eagle are indestructible. However I do not think many handguns with worn alloy frames suffer from accuracy issues because of that wear. The 226 for example has a worrying amount of side-to-side racing tolerance between the slide and the frame, right out of the box, but as long as the barrel/slide lockup is good these will still be accurate. I sometimes wonder if Cerokoted frames and slides like the M25 are made looser to accommodate the coating. And further, there's alloy and there is alloy. The older guns like the 92FS/M9 and the 226 (Manufacturers) pretty much have that sorted out by now. I would not sweat it. Out of those the 92 has the least stable lockup between slide and barrel.

Also if you're worried about steel-to-alloy friction/wear as mentioned above, use more lube. I run a lot of Mobil synthetic grease in all my full length rail guns. What the gun doesn't want in there it will spit out.

[Pond, James Pond]

If you like the all steel compact, lower the hammer manually. I used to be adverse to this but recent experience has changed my mind.

Certainly that is an option, and one I use every time I have to start a stage chambered. There is probably a bigger margin for an ND that way, but only in a relative sense and with the CZs the decocker drops the hammer to the half-cock point, making the first shot reach to the trigger that bit easier.

I could no doubt live with an alloy frame and given my rate of fire it would last at least a decade of regular use, but still, I think I do prefer full-steel.

It is not a deal-breaker, I think, but say the D models in all-steel could certainly be a deal-maker!!

When it comes to choosing a gun, I do seem cursed to adding yet more points of comparison. It's a wonder I'd ever manage to decide to buy any of them!!

[Snyper]

I agree with those that the actual lifespan of an alloy framed gun is nothing to worry about, but the potential for play and therefore loss of accuracy before the gun fails all together is a more pertinent worry, for me in any case.

I would think the tiny amount of flex in a poly frame would act as a cushion, and result in less wear on bearing parts than a stiffer steel frame

[Noreaster]

Remember that with a poly gun like the Glock you can swap out the frame guts and have a like new gun whereas with a steel or aluminum frame that cracks or splits the rails and your done. My Dept.'s first auto loaders were aluminum framed P226s and they took a real beating after ten years, but they were not properly maintained. Proper lubrication and RSA replacement would have made a huge difference.

[James K]

It depends on the design to some extent, but the figures I have seen for an alloy frame of the 1911 type have been in the range of 5000-10000 rounds, with frames cracking at the slide stop cutout or at the slide stop hole where severe stress is put on the frame when the slide returns to battery. That stress can be increased by use of a stronger recoil spring under the illusion that it will prevent frame damage at the point where the recoiling barrel strikes the recoil spring guide and the frame.

Put simply, there is no such thing as a free lunch. You get an advantage in one area, but lose in another.

Jim

[SIGSHR]

IMHO target shooters are probably the most high volume shooters and they have always opted for steel frames.

[TunnelRat]

IMHO target shooters are probably the most high volume shooters and they have always opted for steel frames.

Plenty of target shooters running longslide Glocks and M&Ps.

[sigarms228]

I own more than a few classic P series SIGs - all aluminum frame ones. The only steel frame pistol I own is a 1911.

SIGs makes steel frame pistols for not much more than their aluminum framed ones but the aluminum frame ones suit me better and I never give a second though about frame life. Plenty of credible reports, including from Todd Green, of well maintained aluminum framed SIGs lasting well over 100,000 rounds. Keep in mind that the aluminum frame SIGs have a steel locking insert. SIG also includes a lifetime warranty to original purchaser for additional peace of mind.

Even if I did somehow manage to wear out one of my P226s I figure I would have spent around $20,000 on ammo doing so which makes the cost of the pistol itself insignificant in comparison.

When I choose a new high quality pistol (SIG/HK/Walther) how well it works for me and how well I can shoot it by far means the most to me and I don't lose any sleep over frame life.

Newer design such as the SIG P320 is making frame life a non issue since a new frame can be purchased for about $40. The serial number is on the steel FCU and shows through the poly frame when it is inserted.

[TunnelRat]

SIGs makes steel frame pistols for not much more than their aluminum framed ones but the aluminum frame ones suit me better and I never give a second though about frame life. Plenty of credible reports, including from Todd Green, of well maintained aluminum framed SIGs lasting well over 100,000 rounds. Keep in mind that the aluminum frame SIGs have a steel locking insert. SIG also includes a lifetime warranty to original purchaser for additional peace of mind.

This is a valid point. I know friends in the Navy that have been issued/used M11s (so P228s essentially) with barely any anodizing left and who knows how many rounds and they're still running. I will also say that user care can play a massive role. A buddy of mine shoots a '92 P228. I helped him with lubing the rails when he got it way back and he's kept up at it for years. The rails look brand new and there is zero sign of the anodizing wearing.

[marine6680]

I use a light grease on my slide rails.

My P226 rails look almost new, after a bit over 1000rds. Not a lot, but I have seen people post pictures of rails with similar round counts that look much worse.


As far as cracking frames, I would think design plays a huge role. The steel block in the P226 would spread out forces, but the small hole for the slide stop lever in a 1911 would not hold up as well.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by jmr40

Steel framed guns are proven and may well last the longest, lots of guns out there with 100,000+ round counts. Aluminum alloy will probably have the shortest life span. Numbers I've seen in the past were somewhere between 30,000-50,000 rounds before you might get frame breakage. But if you think about it, if you can afford that much ammo, you can afford to replace the gun. Not sure I'd let that influence my decision.

This largely echoes my thoughts, but I'd use higher round counts for both types. I'm basically a 1911 guy. I know of many 1911s with steel frames that have gone far beyond 100,000 rounds. I only own one alloy 1911 and it has far fewer than 100,000 or even 50,000 rounds through it. It's in my carry rotation and doesn't get used for range blaster duty. But I have a friend who is a police officer (correction -- "was" a police officer -- he retired at the end of 2014) whose choice of duty weapon (he was allowed to choose) was an alloy, lightweight Colt Commander. I don't remember what he told me the round count was, but I'm pretty sure it was over 50,000 rounds.

Put that in perspective. If you intend to keep the pistol for 20 years, 50,000 rounds is 2,500 rounds per year, or 48 rounds per week for EVERY WEEK over that 20 years. I'll never put that many rounds through any one pistol in the course of my lifetime.

On the other hand, I guess professional IPSC shooters burn through 100,000 rounds or more every year just for practice.

[Pond, James Pond]

I use a light grease on my slide rails.

Which type?

My SP-01 is about 750rds old and I'd like to keep it looking that way.

Right now I use Forrest NATO spec synthetic gun oil that certainly stays put, but it is relatively thin.

Ballistol seems to almost congeal into a mild grease the times I have used it.

I am toying with the idea of using a dry-lube on the firing pin and other internals to avoid attracting dirt, but I don't know if it is the best idea.

[Brotherbadger]

I don't think any of us are going to shoot a handgun enough to see if either lasts longer. Alloy frames will last a lifetime, just keep it greased up and it will serve you well.

[marine6680]

I use lubriplate SFL-0 food grade machinery grease. It is thinner than typical grease used in vehicles, it smears easily. Similar to hand lotion in thickness.

I don't think it's readily available out of the US.

Lubricants designed for the food processing industry are highly suited to firearms. They are high performance and highly resistant to harsh environmental conditions.

[Pond, James Pond]

Lubricants designed for the food processing industry are highly suited to firearms. They are high performance and highly resistant to harsh environmental conditions.

And taste better than FrogLube, no doubt!

I'll look into it here: there is a strong food industry: they must get their supplies from somewhere!