Fighting Back From The Grave - Page 3

Rusty35 · December 1, 2011, 09:19 AM

Blanket statements are not reasonable.

Wagonman · December 3, 2011, 04:06 PM

Was there a legitimate warrant?

Were there. MARKED police vehicles and personnel on scene?

Did offender have a firearm and fail to drop it at the first sign of marked police officers?

Did offender have a background of hanging with criminal?

Was a stolen shotgun recovered at offender's residence?

If these inquiries are answered in affirmative, why is there a controversy?

secret_agent_man · December 3, 2011, 04:17 PM

Quote:

If these inquiries are answered in affirmative, why is there a controversy?

Because this is America.

Wagonman · December 3, 2011, 04:43 PM

You didn't answer my question

Crosshair · December 3, 2011, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Did offender have a firearm and fail to drop it at the first sign of marked police officers?

Considering you can buy hats, coats and shirts with "police" written on them at about 5,000 different online clothing stores that doesn't mean much

MTT TL · December 3, 2011, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Was there a legitimate warrant?

That is a relevant fact and important. That is really the only reason the cops are not going to jail. The get out of jail free card comes in handy.

Quote:

Were there. MARKED police vehicles and personnel on scene?

This is an interesting aspect. Certainly police cars did not matter since they would not have been visible on purpose since it was a no-knock. Uniformed personnel make a difference too. Given the number of home invasions by fake police these days (especially vulnerable if you are {alleged} drug dealer like this guy) he would have had good reason to suspect fake police.

Regardless he would have had a very short period of time to make a choice, if they gave him any.

Quote:

Did offender have a firearm and fail to drop it at the first sign of marked police officers?

That is what the police say. He sure is dead. The police lied about the suspect shooting at them however. They lied about a lot of other stuff too. They may have lied about him dropping his gun. We will never know for sure likely.

Quote:

Did offender have a background of hanging with criminal?

Offender? What was he convicted of? If hanging with a criminal is a shootable offense then we would have no professional athletic teams.

Quote:

Was a stolen shotgun recovered at offender's residence?

So? There was no warrant for the shotgun. They were looking for drugs. Who says he did not buy the shotgun from someone without knowing it was stolen? Do you research all the used guns you buy?

Quote:

If these inquiries are answered in affirmative, why is there a controversy?

Pretty much covered your questions. But there were a lot of other issues too.

Glenn Dee · December 4, 2011, 08:10 PM

But... But... The police did knock and announce.

Glenn Dee · December 4, 2011, 08:13 PM

And it wasnt a "DYNAMIC ENTRY"

Wagonman · December 5, 2011, 08:59 AM

Possession of a stolen shotgun does in fact make you an offender.

I don't personally research each used weapon I purchase, but, my affirmative defense is that I use an FFL and I have a reasonable expectation that if it passes through his hands it isn't hot.

Hanging with criminals isn't a capital offense, pointing your weapon at a police officer screaming "POLICE, POLICE, SERVING A SEARCH WARRANT" can be and should be.

The problem is that you are Monday morning QBing through an anti police prism

Cops lied. Guy dropped his bible when jackbooted thugs threatened his bunny and he tried to reason with them and he was FORCED to commit aggravated assault against a Police Officer.

Glenn Dee · December 5, 2011, 07:14 PM

LOL Wagonman... that the best laugh all day.

MTT TL · December 5, 2011, 07:15 PM

Quote:

The problem is that you are Monday morning QBing through an anti police prism

Cops lied. Guy dropped his bible when jackbooted thugs threatened his bunny and he tried to reason with them and he was FORCED to commit aggravated assault against a Police Officer.

Strange assessment of me given through the internet.

IT almost as though you are willing to excuse anything the police did just because they "said" he was shooting... I mean assaulting.... I mean pointing.... I mean.... "Whatever" at the police. It is pretty amazing that you will believe anything from people who admitted they lied later.

johnbt · December 5, 2011, 09:14 PM

".... I mean pointing.."

Why yes, just pointing a gun can be assault. Good way to get yourself killed.

MTT TL · December 5, 2011, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Why yes, just pointing a gun can be assault. Good way to get yourself killed.

Sure, if that is what really happened. Were you there or do you believe liars out of habit?

Wagonman · December 6, 2011, 01:24 AM

I don't have any reason to believe an offender over a Police Officer with a Warrant.

I didn't assess anybody in particular.

MTT TL · December 6, 2011, 09:46 AM

You should.

The police lied when they said the "offender" was shooting at them with his weapon. When it was discovered to be unfired and on safe their stories changed a lot.

I know cops don't want to go to jail just like everyone else, perhaps more so. However they are human and make mistakes too. The way the world is they are held accountable for the rest of their lives for mistakes made in an instant. Therefore they have an overwhelming incentive to not tell the truth if they think they can get away with it.

You have to wonder if the weapon was found on safe why would the "offender" point it at anyone? Certainly he was well trained and taking it off safe would have been one of the first things I would have done. Before pointing it at someone I was going to shoot anyway.

When the enforcers of justice can't be trusted to tell the truth they should not be doing that job.

Glenn E. Meyer · December 6, 2011, 10:32 AM

Oh, people forget to take weapons off safe all the time under stress.

Watch the 1911 folk in a match. Nothing happens. Curses. Takes off safeties.

Also let's not get personal. I think the thread is winding down if we just repeat ourselves and start to attack each other.

secret_agent_man · December 6, 2011, 02:05 PM

Quote:

The police lied when they said the "offender" was shooting at them with his weapon. When it was discovered to be unfired and on safe their stories changed a lot.

That is about as close to prima facie evidence as you can get the suspect was murdered, or at least not otherwise justifiably shot. While this thread may have about run it's course, this case has miles to go.

johnbt · December 6, 2011, 03:36 PM

About to get personal?

I'd say they are already here with their insults. Was I there? No. I doubt if Mr. Knowitall was there either.

Let me respond to the full statement... "Were you there or do you believe liars out of habit? "

Do you go out of your way to insult people or are you just a jerk?

I'd likely believe a liar before I'd listen to your poor excuse for what you try to pass off for logic.

Glenn Dee · December 6, 2011, 06:46 PM

Close to a prima facia case?... I'm sorry but nope. First off The police are under no requierment to allow an adversary to get off the first shot. If the subject pointed a firearm in the general direction of the police... he's probably going to get shot.

Could an officer have heard another officers firearm going off, and believed the subject was fireing at him? Then after debriefing realize that he was mistaken?... It happens. He's not changing his story... He's correcting his misconception. I dont know thats what happened but it's a lot more likely than the police murdered anyone.

As I've said before... I'm probably one of the harshest critics of todays police tactics. But in this case I dont see any real fault. I feel even stronger that they were justified after watching the vidio.

You cant point guns at the police. Even if it is on safety. Well you can but expect sad results.

Glenn E. Meyer · December 6, 2011, 07:20 PM

Oh, well - before we have to dynamically ban someone, I think we've touched the major points.

If new reliable info becomes available we can re-visit.

So closed.

December 6, 2011, 09:46 AM	#65
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	You should. The police lied when they said the "offender" was shooting at them with his weapon. When it was discovered to be unfired and on safe their stories changed a lot. I know cops don't want to go to jail just like everyone else, perhaps more so. However they are human and make mistakes too. The way the world is they are held accountable for the rest of their lives for mistakes made in an instant. Therefore they have an overwhelming incentive to not tell the truth if they think they can get away with it. You have to wonder if the weapon was found on safe why would the "offender" point it at anyone? Certainly he was well trained and taking it off safe would have been one of the first things I would have done. Before pointing it at someone I was going to shoot anyway. When the enforcers of justice can't be trusted to tell the truth they should not be doing that job. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

December 6, 2011, 10:32 AM	#66
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Oh, people forget to take weapons off safe all the time under stress. Watch the 1911 folk in a match. Nothing happens. Curses. Takes off safeties. Also let's not get personal. I think the thread is winding down if we just repeat ourselves and start to attack each other. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

December 6, 2011, 07:20 PM	#70
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Oh, well - before we have to dynamically ban someone, I think we've touched the major points. If new reliable info becomes available we can re-visit. So closed. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

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December 1, 2011, 09:19 AM	#51
Rusty35 Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2011 Posts: 140	Blanket statements are not reasonable.

December 3, 2011, 04:06 PM	#52
Wagonman Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,014	Was there a legitimate warrant? Were there. MARKED police vehicles and personnel on scene? Did offender have a firearm and fail to drop it at the first sign of marked police officers? Did offender have a background of hanging with criminal? Was a stolen shotgun recovered at offender's residence? If these inquiries are answered in affirmative, why is there a controversy?

December 3, 2011, 04:43 PM	#54
Wagonman Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,014	You didn't answer my question

December 4, 2011, 08:10 PM	#57
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	But... But... The police did knock and announce.

December 4, 2011, 08:13 PM	#58
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	And it wasnt a "DYNAMIC ENTRY"

December 5, 2011, 08:59 AM	#59
Wagonman Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,014	Possession of a stolen shotgun does in fact make you an offender. I don't personally research each used weapon I purchase, but, my affirmative defense is that I use an FFL and I have a reasonable expectation that if it passes through his hands it isn't hot. Hanging with criminals isn't a capital offense, pointing your weapon at a police officer screaming "POLICE, POLICE, SERVING A SEARCH WARRANT" can be and should be. The problem is that you are Monday morning QBing through an anti police prism Cops lied. Guy dropped his bible when jackbooted thugs threatened his bunny and he tried to reason with them and he was FORCED to commit aggravated assault against a Police Officer.

December 5, 2011, 07:14 PM	#60
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	LOL Wagonman... that the best laugh all day.

December 5, 2011, 09:14 PM	#62
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	".... I mean pointing.." Why yes, just pointing a gun can be assault. Good way to get yourself killed.

December 6, 2011, 01:24 AM	#64
Wagonman Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,014	I don't have any reason to believe an offender over a Police Officer with a Warrant. I didn't assess anybody in particular.

December 6, 2011, 03:36 PM	#68
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	About to get personal? I'd say they are already here with their insults. Was I there? No. I doubt if Mr. Knowitall was there either. Let me respond to the full statement... "Were you there or do you believe liars out of habit? " Do you go out of your way to insult people or are you just a jerk? I'd likely believe a liar before I'd listen to your poor excuse for what you try to pass off for logic.

December 6, 2011, 06:46 PM	#69
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	Close to a prima facia case?... I'm sorry but nope. First off The police are under no requierment to allow an adversary to get off the first shot. If the subject pointed a firearm in the general direction of the police... he's probably going to get shot. Could an officer have heard another officers firearm going off, and believed the subject was fireing at him? Then after debriefing realize that he was mistaken?... It happens. He's not changing his story... He's correcting his misconception. I dont know thats what happened but it's a lot more likely than the police murdered anyone. As I've said before... I'm probably one of the harshest critics of todays police tactics. But in this case I dont see any real fault. I feel even stronger that they were justified after watching the vidio. You cant point guns at the police. Even if it is on safety. Well you can but expect sad results.