November 3, 2008, 04:02 PM | #101 |
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i sure hope you guys are right. i guess i dont see bad guys carrying single shots. lol. bobn
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November 3, 2008, 04:06 PM | #102 |
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I can tell you from first hand experience that a .40S&W (180 gr Federal Hydrashok) fired from a Glock 22 (4.5 inch barrel) will penetrate the following layers of construction material:
Penetrated a layer of sheet rock first, then a concrete construction breeze block, through a 2x4 framing timber, through another layer of sheet rock, and finally through a layer of bathroom tile. The bullet had lost enough steam by then to be stopped by a plastic shower curtain. Still...I was impressed. Thats a lot of building material which that 180 grainer was capable of truckin' through. |
November 3, 2008, 10:35 PM | #103 |
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Maybe this has been stated before, but just because you are investigating a noise that you KNOW is nothing to worry about, while noting that most people would not carry a weapon to investigate the noise, I don't see a problem in choosing to bring a weapon. If you just HAVE to investigate, if you have a pistol and it's nothing, then you're fine, and the pistol wasn't a problem. But if Jack Nicholson's character from The Shining jumps out with an axe (), then you're adequately prepared to defend yourself. However, if he jumps out when you don't have a weapon, you're worse off. What I'm trying to say is that there is no problem in carrying a weapon where you don't need one.
Whether you ARE clearing your house or NOT, being armed is a benefit. Unless the BG somehow wrestles it from you, I guess, but if that is a possibility for you, then you probably have no business clearing your house (I admittedly fall into this category). Also, I'm guessing this intruder has a reason for being in your house. Most likely, he's there to steal something. His objective is theft, and your objective is clearing your house. You only have to be quiet enough so that the BG (who is either grabbing stuff or searching for stuff to grab) cannot hear you. If you are quiet enough, he won't know where you are, and he will be preoccupied with his theft. This gives you the familiarity with your surroundings and the element of surprise. The rest of this paragraph is meaningless, however, if he is there to harm you, in which case, you'll probably know before you get out of your bedroom if he's a professional. As a disclaimer, this post was made without the benefit of professional training or personal experience. Please correct any fallacies, as this entire post was my imaginings of theoretical scenarios.
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November 3, 2008, 11:14 PM | #104 | ||
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While I'm at it, I have to correct an error I made in an earlier post. In post #25, I wrote: Quote:
However, I don't think that changes anything. Solo house clear still seems to be a demonstrably bad idea. |
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November 4, 2008, 02:35 AM | #105 |
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I'm not going to read through five pages of post in regards to the original question and the thread drifts. Instead, I'll just give my answer to the original question.
I do not actively go looking for a gunfight. The surest way to win a gunfight is to not be in one. If I am certain that the noise is felonious in nature I am staying hunkered down in the home and preparing to repel boarders and calling 911. If after careful observation, listening and using my three dogs to ascertain what the noise was and I am certain it's not a human caused noise I will let the dogs out to investigate, and lock the door behind them. I also will have turned on all the outside lights while keeping the inside lights off. If the dogs alert to something I will let them deal with the situation while I am still ready to repel boarders. I can let the dogs back in during daylight if I need to. If I hear human noises at this point 911 is being called. If it's another animal, like I said, the dogs can handle it. When they are done dealing with whatever it is, neighbor's cat, dog or future felon offspring I will let them back in. If 911 is called I will inform them that my dogs are in the yards and will call them off after the officers arrive. I intend to keep the lines of communication open with the 911 Operator to relay necessary information. If it is the noise of an intruder, well that means they have gotten past the security door, the dogs and some other things. This is a "hunker down" situation for me. I'm not going to go searching for the badguy, even in my own home. There is too much at stake and there is no guarantee of having a sucessful outcome, just look at the guy that lost his arm. Last time I heard a noise at night the dogs, in the house, alerted to it. I then heard voices. As soon as I tripped the lights I heard them running away. I then let the dogs out. About an hour later I let them back in. The next day, in the sunlight, I went out to investigate and found where my wall had been painted with graffiti. What if I had gone outside to investigate and "startled" one of them and he turned towards me in a rapid manner with a can of spraypaint in his or her hand? Would I have seen it was paint, or would I have thought it was a weapon? I'm glad I don't have to answer that question, even if it was a "furtive movement". There are no guarantees in court and I would've most likely been crucified in the local press. What if it had been a gun and I thought it was a can of spraypaint? I've cleared a few rooms and buildings, and I HATE it. I will only do it if I have no other choice. I'm not going to go looking for trouble, as trouble has a habit of finding you even when you aren't looking for it. Biker |
November 4, 2008, 06:55 AM | #106 | |
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oldmarksman,
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None the less, be safe.
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November 4, 2008, 08:28 AM | #107 | |
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From Jaybird 78:
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I thought it a reasonable guess that most people who would say "I would have no problem clearing my own home" were most likely ignorant of the fact that in force on force exercises, even the best firearms trainers and shooters have virtually no chance of not being "killed" in that mission. My objective was not to impugn but to inform. Now, if did in fact already know that..... |
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November 4, 2008, 08:42 AM | #108 | ||||
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From Biker RN:
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Have you considered a remote camera system? Quote:
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Excellent post! |
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November 4, 2008, 09:43 AM | #109 |
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Let's all realize that PAX was right in her summation. I think those who advocate not going outside must live in single family homes or in areas where visibility to their driveways or the street are unfettered.
But this is not always so. Consider those who live in townhomes and condos. They often can't see their own driveways or see out to the street area. The photo below shows a local townhome complex from overhead. Garage entrances are non-visible from inside the house. In most cases, only 2 units in a group have a "street view". In these cases, someone living "behind" the street-facing units, may have to venture outside to determine what the sound might be. Late night/early morning noises might be someone committing a crime - or someone coming home from a late night carousing. Before calling the cops, stepping out the front door often gives a clue as to the noises. One can tell if there are hostile sounding voices or not. Sometimes one can identify the noise enough to dismiss it. In those other cases, a cautious peek may be needed. Here's what I'm faced with if I need to walk outside to determine the source of a noise. It's approximately 40 ft to the curb (cone). The postal worker is another 25 ft, along the far curb. At night, one can easily stay hidden from street view until within about 10 ft of the curb. Sure, we could hunker down and just call the police. But an "unknown odd noise" call is very low priority and unlikely to get any response. But that call gets higher priority if you can tell them it looks like 1-2 people tampering with cars or something similar. Yeah, stay indoors if you live where you can see the street and your driveway. But if you can't see activities around your house very well, always use caution when checking them out.
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November 4, 2008, 10:10 AM | #110 | ||
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From BillCA:
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The situation that I mentioned before PAX made her comment involved a farm or ranch with out buildings and some area to take into account, and probably in a remote area like your friend's property in Missouri. When I was young, I visited relatives on two rural farms. None of them ever carried a gun Things have changed, with the development of the meth "industry"and its addicts. Farms now have extremely bright lights that blot out the stars for anyone out in th country. Carrying a gun would seem wise, to me. And, of course, the idea of remote cameras. Your thoughts? Last edited by OldMarksman; November 4, 2008 at 12:54 PM. Reason: spellng |
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November 4, 2008, 10:47 AM | #111 |
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Bill, I've lived places like that. It looks like a great place for a GG to be ambushed by the BG. In any case, suit yourself.
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November 4, 2008, 05:59 PM | #112 |
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I'm wondering if all those published self defense articles that get published in the papers and then the NRA reprints are false. Seems like defending one's own home works. Does it work all the time, NO. You win some and you lose some. Lets just hope NOBODY ever breaks into our homes. I guess I will just take my chances when something goes bump in the night and try my hardest to bump back.
If you were up against multiple intruders....say......ninjas, zombies, jackbooted thugs I would say going on the "offensive" may lead to your demise. If you were up against a lone intruder....say.....crack head, drunk, punk kid then I PERSONALLY feel confident. Of course I'm a firm believer in putting lead downrange. Of course you won't know unless you go LOOK or can HEAR something/someone. Finally on a side note, please don't take every experts OPINION to heart, OPINIONS differ on many more subjects than this one. Do what YOU think is right for YOUR situation. Did you like how I inserted zombies in this?
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November 4, 2008, 06:28 PM | #113 | ||||
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November 4, 2008, 07:05 PM | #114 | |||
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November 4, 2008, 07:18 PM | #115 | |
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around here, the problem is black bears. they pushed in a screen window across the breezeway hall and were discovered when the owners came back from the bar, ran thru the room and jetted over the balcony. they tear into trash bags in the back of my pickup truck and the dumpsters have locks on them to keep them from throwing trash all over the parking lot. i hear them bangin around 1-2 in the am. i dont know their range, but in particular over the last year its a large female and 3 cubs. when my dog barks thru the front sliding door about 15/20 feet from the sidewalk, she stands there and munches the azaleas.
so i dont investigate noises outside, i dont clear the exterior of the condo, sometimes i look thru the window when the dog starts up. when i take her out to pee and she goes ballistic at the top of the stairs, we go back inside. no comment on all the skunks around here and a 25 ft leash. you guys go ahead and clear.
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November 4, 2008, 11:04 PM | #116 | ||
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I do realize the basic concept that a BG is danger. I'm saying I don't bunker down every time I hear a noise. Where do you guys live? If I hear a noise I go and investigate. I would love to get a count of the number of times other posters here have called the police because of a noise. Come on and fess up? Lets just say within the last year.
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November 4, 2008, 11:51 PM | #117 | |||
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November 5, 2008, 08:08 AM | #118 | ||
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From Jaybird 78:
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From Fiddletown: Quote:
Perhaps I am missing your point. |
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November 5, 2008, 10:49 AM | #119 | ||
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You bring up a good point and I'd like to take it a bit further. How valuable is the opinion of someone who's actually done nothing (has zero personal experience), but received training from someone who actually had the experience? If I went to a doctor and he told me all about pancreatic cancer, am I now qualified to go start diagnosing people? Do you really know anything if all you know is what someone else told you (who may not have actually done it himself...and in fact, may have been told it by someone else, just like he is telling you)? I've seen quite a few "trainers" and "experts" who can regurgitate information, but have ZERO actual experience doing what they are teaching. Do they really know anything? Would you really know anything since your training came from someone who doesn't really know what they're teaching? Who's the real expert? The guy who's had all the "training" but has no actual experience, or an old farmer/construction worker/whatever who's had no formal training, but has actually done the stuff? ***The "you" in this post isn't YOU. Just the generalized "you", as in we.*** |
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November 5, 2008, 11:01 AM | #120 | |
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Let's consider the subject at hand. Folks who actually do house clearing from time to time for a living, do a whole lot of training to do it. They probably do more training simulations than actual house clearing. They seem to think that the training helps. And most of the training is provided by people who also train a lot and probably do it on occasion. And they train people the way they've been trained and themselves train. How many folks do you know who have actually done any meaningful amount of house clearing and who have had no training doing it? |
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November 5, 2008, 11:10 AM | #121 | |
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First, I'll say that I agree with the staying put and waiting idea but secondly, in this example, we have to realize that the BG was also HIGHLY trained. Trained to a degree that would be exceedingly unlikely in an actual event. I believe the underlying theory but the performance of a moderately trained GG against an untrained BG would (probably) be better than this. Not better enough for my tastes and not better enough that I would EVER recommend it but better.
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November 5, 2008, 11:33 AM | #122 | |
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From Hondo11:
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The carpenter example is really not a very good one, in my opinion. You can find many skilled carpenters, but there aren't any fighter aces still in the saddle. That certainly doesn't mean that our best trained fighter pilots aren't "real experts." They can tell you what tactics will get you killed nine times out of ten and what is likely to work. I worked for and with some Viet Nam era fighter pilots who could tell you the same thing, but they often knew that from training before they went into combat. They aren't flying anymore but they did survive. A carpenter can learn from trial and error, but a fighter pilot cannot. The same thing applies in SWAT team training, to choose a more relevant example. Every so often the police teams do go into actual action against adversaries. If they based their tactics solely on those few events, with all of the variables involved, they would be at a significant disadvantage. So, to become and remain "real experts", they train in realistic conditions, varying the scenarios until they are in fact real experts under a wide range of conditions. By the way, that's what fighter pilots do, also. I wouldn't underestimate the value of professional, realistic force on force training and simulation. I have friend who is a police officer who has been in quite a bit of it. And I certainly would not adopt a strategy that the top professionals and instructors have found to entail a virtual certainty of getting "killed." I hope this proves constructive. |
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November 5, 2008, 11:42 AM | #123 | |
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Moderator Note
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This thread's just about done anyway, and that's a useful and intriguing question which is radically off topic in this thread. pax |
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November 5, 2008, 11:49 AM | #124 |
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Old Marksman,
I don't and (didn't) discount training at all. I do think people should be selective in where they get that training and who's giving it to them. The same also applies to the opinions they choose to listen to and take to heart. Example: There's a certain trainer out there who has quite a following. They call him an "expert". He's been an instructor for years, but his actual experience is almost ZERO. And when he was getting the experience (again...almost zero), he performed very poorly by all accounts except his own. Yet, he's a recognized "expert" because he has been "teaching this stuff for years". That's my point. Does having a resume bullet that says "10 years instructing CQB" make you an expert if your basis for instructing is almost no actual experience conducting CQB for real? Or would you say the guy who's not a recognized expert (simply because he doesn't care to be recognized as one), but has legitimate real world experience, has a better grasp of the subject? That was all I was getting at. And I'm not directing it at anyone in particular or trying to stir the pot. Just a point to take into consideration. |
November 5, 2008, 11:51 AM | #125 |
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PAX,
Just saw your post after I sent my reply to OM. Sorry for the hijack. I know it was off topic, but I thought it sort of applied so that folks reading the thread could take it into consideration as they evaluated the opinions/advice given. My sincere aplogies. |
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