homemade pump shotgun

overkill2002 · May 11, 2008, 10:05 PM

First off let me say that I am a machinist and I know how to use a mill and lathe; access isn't going to be a problem either. I just finished reading Bill Holmes' book on firearms prototypes and design. The book is mostly just basic principles and procedures, but he does throw us a bone and give us some okay prints for a pump action shotgun that uses detachable box mags. The drawbacks are that you have to make the mags yourself, the action bar looks weak ( IMO ) and the whole thing just doesn't look right.

Has anyone actually built one of these?

The semi auto version of this actually looked okay and seems to be a reliable design. Mostly I just prefer pumps and and I don't find his design aesthetically pleasing.

I think that the design of the action can be tweaked to take Saiga mags without too much trouble. For that matter I could base it off of the Saiga action. The slide would still be on the barrel rather than under it but with a much heavier action bar where the piston would be on an AK..... It would probably clean the lines up.

Yeah I know that I could just go out and buy a saiga, but like I said I prefer pumps and I want to mostly make this myself.

any input will be useful.

teeroux · May 11, 2008, 10:17 PM

Are you planning to build a shotgun pure from scratch or are you useing a pre existing action?

.351winchester · May 11, 2008, 10:18 PM

There was a pump action .223 Galil based rifle, you may wanna look at that and see if it gives you any ideas.

overkill2002 · May 11, 2008, 10:23 PM

I would like to do it from scratch, but I'm not above scrounging existing parts to get it to work.

I'd heard somewhere about a pump action rifle based on the AK platform, but I haven't been able to find any info.

teeroux · May 11, 2008, 10:27 PM

there is a box type magazine adapter for the moss 500 ive seen it advertised in cabelas i think

overkill2002 · May 11, 2008, 10:32 PM

Are you thinking of the sidewinder from Knoxx? Last I heard they were discontinued due to reliability problems with the mags. Another reason I want to do the work myself is I want to do it heavy duty.

predator86 · May 11, 2008, 11:01 PM

sounds like a sweet idea...i always wanted to do a double barreled pump....just for kicks

.351winchester · May 11, 2008, 11:19 PM

EAA imported a ordinary looking pump (IIRC called the PM-2) that was mag fed. It didn't look anything radically different than an ordinary pump, just fed from a mag where the elevator would normally be.

I can scan and send you an article on the Franchi SPAS-15, a mag fed pump/auto convertable. Might get you on to something (not suggesting you make your's convertable, that is).

If you make this, you really need to market it to some smaller 'AW" mfg.'s as a prototype. People would buy these. Don't make it just to have, you could make some money out of this. Especially since you are really going to design the whole action.

Have you tried making drums before, btw? The Saiga 12 20 rd. is cool as it gets, but 320.-400. for a few bands of metal?

overkill2002 · May 12, 2008, 12:08 AM

EAA was the original importer of the valtro. It looks good but its a bit pricey for me. Also its not well enough known for the mags to be acquired without difficulty.

I'm aware of the Spas 12 and I'd heard something about a Spas that was Convertible. Doesn't the ATF consider those to be "Any other weapon" and "not suitable for sporting purposes"? Thanks for the offer for the scans but they might be a bit too complicated for me to do right now.

I've thought of doing an 870 clone (for my own use, don't sue me) with a short forearm (so it'll clear the magwell ) that would work like the sidewinder but with a cover/plug adapter thing that you could stick in the magwell and feed from the tube.

As far as marketing goes the patentholders for the type of action that I use/adapt could nail me for infringement and Bill Holmes could nail me for the rest of the gun. I'll be making or adapting parts that were someone else's idea. AW manufacturers probably would love it though. But if they thought there was a market Saiga would be doing it. IF I'm right the biggest difference between a gas operated and pump would be the barrel, the gas system and the forearm itself. I could make them. I could sell them if I wanted to jump through hoops and get an manufacturer's FFL. But I don't believe I could do it economically enough to make a profit.

That doesn't mean I won't do a how-to book and try to get Paladin to publish it.

I wouldn't be making it just to have; I'd be making it partly to see if it would work and partly because It would help get my skills up to where I might try rifling next time.

.351winchester · May 12, 2008, 12:46 AM

Quote:

I'm aware of the Spas 12 and I'd heard something about a Spas that was Convertible. Doesn't the ATF consider those to be "Any other weapon"

Destructive Devices-Cobray Street Sweeper, Daewoo USAS-12. All the Franchis including SPAS 12 and 15 missed this, very few 15's were ever imported. The Saiga right now is a far better weapon than any of these.

I read in a post here, this year there was supposed to be some kind of 20 rd./top-feed pump shotty coming out...?

I wish you the best of luck and can't wait to see this baby.

alfred · May 12, 2008, 01:08 AM

Have you thought about getting the proper legal paperwork to do this project the world has now read about?If not,you could spend much money and a few years in a federal vacation home built just for such folk.Any good mechanic can build a working gun.Any good machinist should be able to build a excellent one.The reason most do not is the cost and trouble of the license to do so legally.There is always someone somewhere wanting someone to turn in,in the hopes of a lighter sentence.You are now a prime target to investigate I believe.It does not matter how many good or wonderful reasons you have for making one.If it ain't legal,they will take you down if they can.

Believe me when I say that I believe that everyone should be able to make their own gun.Unfortunately it just ain't so.alfred

Bill DeShivs · May 12, 2008, 01:14 AM

There is nothing illegal about making your own gun, for your own use-as long as it is not an NFA weapon.
You can't sell it, though.

overkill2002 · May 12, 2008, 01:33 AM

I am well aware of the legalities involved for making a nontransferrable firearm for my own personal use. If I can legally purchase it or something similar then I can make it. I am also aware that the ATF has a habit of picking on innocent people. When I spoke of a manfacturer's FFL I was talking about the one that allows you to make weapons that can be sold.

May 11, 2008, 10:05 PM	#1
overkill2002 Junior Member Join Date: May 11, 2008 Posts: 7	homemade pump shotgun First off let me say that I am a machinist and I know how to use a mill and lathe; access isn't going to be a problem either. I just finished reading Bill Holmes' book on firearms prototypes and design. The book is mostly just basic principles and procedures, but he does throw us a bone and give us some okay prints for a pump action shotgun that uses detachable box mags. The drawbacks are that you have to make the mags yourself, the action bar looks weak ( IMO ) and the whole thing just doesn't look right. Has anyone actually built one of these? The semi auto version of this actually looked okay and seems to be a reliable design. Mostly I just prefer pumps and and I don't find his design aesthetically pleasing. I think that the design of the action can be tweaked to take Saiga mags without too much trouble. For that matter I could base it off of the Saiga action. The slide would still be on the barrel rather than under it but with a much heavier action bar where the piston would be on an AK..... It would probably clean the lines up. Yeah I know that I could just go out and buy a saiga, but like I said I prefer pumps and I want to mostly make this myself. any input will be useful.

May 11, 2008, 11:01 PM	#7
predator86 Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: wisconsin Posts: 549	sounds like a sweet idea...i always wanted to do a double barreled pump....just for kicks __________________ Beware the man with one gun.

May 12, 2008, 01:08 AM	#11
alfred Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2008 Location: Pembroke,Georgia Posts: 149	Have you thought about? Have you thought about getting the proper legal paperwork to do this project the world has now read about?If not,you could spend much money and a few years in a federal vacation home built just for such folk.Any good mechanic can build a working gun.Any good machinist should be able to build a excellent one.The reason most do not is the cost and trouble of the license to do so legally.There is always someone somewhere wanting someone to turn in,in the hopes of a lighter sentence.You are now a prime target to investigate I believe.It does not matter how many good or wonderful reasons you have for making one.If it ain't legal,they will take you down if they can. Believe me when I say that I believe that everyone should be able to make their own gun.Unfortunately it just ain't so.alfred __________________ I AIN'T DEAD AND I AIN'T QUITTING!

May 12, 2008, 01:14 AM	#12
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	There is nothing illegal about making your own gun, for your own use-as long as it is not an NFA weapon. You can't sell it, though. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

May 11, 2008, 10:17 PM	#2
teeroux Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Posts: 1,512	Are you planning to build a shotgun pure from scratch or are you useing a pre existing action?

May 11, 2008, 10:18 PM	#3
.351winchester Junior member Join Date: December 31, 2005 Location: MI Posts: 1,013	There was a pump action .223 Galil based rifle, you may wanna look at that and see if it gives you any ideas.

May 11, 2008, 10:23 PM	#4
overkill2002 Junior Member Join Date: May 11, 2008 Posts: 7	I would like to do it from scratch, but I'm not above scrounging existing parts to get it to work. I'd heard somewhere about a pump action rifle based on the AK platform, but I haven't been able to find any info.

May 11, 2008, 10:27 PM	#5
teeroux Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Posts: 1,512	there is a box type magazine adapter for the moss 500 ive seen it advertised in cabelas i think

May 11, 2008, 10:32 PM	#6
overkill2002 Junior Member Join Date: May 11, 2008 Posts: 7	Are you thinking of the sidewinder from Knoxx? Last I heard they were discontinued due to reliability problems with the mags. Another reason I want to do the work myself is I want to do it heavy duty.

May 11, 2008, 11:19 PM	#8
.351winchester Junior member Join Date: December 31, 2005 Location: MI Posts: 1,013	EAA imported a ordinary looking pump (IIRC called the PM-2) that was mag fed. It didn't look anything radically different than an ordinary pump, just fed from a mag where the elevator would normally be. I can scan and send you an article on the Franchi SPAS-15, a mag fed pump/auto convertable. Might get you on to something (not suggesting you make your's convertable, that is). If you make this, you really need to market it to some smaller 'AW" mfg.'s as a prototype. People would buy these. Don't make it just to have, you could make some money out of this. Especially since you are really going to design the whole action. Have you tried making drums before, btw? The Saiga 12 20 rd. is cool as it gets, but 320.-400. for a few bands of metal?

May 12, 2008, 12:08 AM	#9
overkill2002 Junior Member Join Date: May 11, 2008 Posts: 7	EAA was the original importer of the valtro. It looks good but its a bit pricey for me. Also its not well enough known for the mags to be acquired without difficulty. I'm aware of the Spas 12 and I'd heard something about a Spas that was Convertible. Doesn't the ATF consider those to be "Any other weapon" and "not suitable for sporting purposes"? Thanks for the offer for the scans but they might be a bit too complicated for me to do right now. I've thought of doing an 870 clone (for my own use, don't sue me) with a short forearm (so it'll clear the magwell ) that would work like the sidewinder but with a cover/plug adapter thing that you could stick in the magwell and feed from the tube. As far as marketing goes the patentholders for the type of action that I use/adapt could nail me for infringement and Bill Holmes could nail me for the rest of the gun. I'll be making or adapting parts that were someone else's idea. AW manufacturers probably would love it though. But if they thought there was a market Saiga would be doing it. IF I'm right the biggest difference between a gas operated and pump would be the barrel, the gas system and the forearm itself. I could make them. I could sell them if I wanted to jump through hoops and get an manufacturer's FFL. But I don't believe I could do it economically enough to make a profit. That doesn't mean I won't do a how-to book and try to get Paladin to publish it. I wouldn't be making it just to have; I'd be making it partly to see if it would work and partly because It would help get my skills up to where I might try rifling next time.

May 12, 2008, 01:33 AM	#13
overkill2002 Junior Member Join Date: May 11, 2008 Posts: 7	I am well aware of the legalities involved for making a nontransferrable firearm for my own personal use. If I can legally purchase it or something similar then I can make it. I am also aware that the ATF has a habit of picking on innocent people. When I spoke of a manfacturer's FFL I was talking about the one that allows you to make weapons that can be sold.