The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 26, 2015, 12:00 PM   #26
rodwhaincamo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 7, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,246
"Unless you have a Walker, your looking at a .38 spl comparison. I sure wouldn't take a 40 yard shot on a deer. I'd be hesitant at 25 yards."

It all depends on the powder you use. Swiss, Olde Eynsford, and Triple 7 will all give you much higher velocity than almost any others.

Look at the video Mr. Beliveau, the editor for Guns of the Old West Magazine had made comparing standard Goex (3F) to Triple 7 (3F) with reduced loads and mild compression. He was getting nearly 500 ft/lbs with the 220 grn Lee conical and Kaido's 255 grn bullet (modified Lee .45 Colt bullet). And a RB gave him ~375 ft/lbs. Thing is T7 doesn't need to be reduced for safety, nor does it need mild compression when not loading it in cartridges. Nowhere on Hodgdon's site under loading info does it state such.

And from the few chronograph results where people have shot Swiss, Olde E, and T7 in side by side comparisons they give very similar velocities when loaded with the same volume of powder.
rodwhaincamo is offline  
Old January 27, 2015, 03:25 PM   #27
BerdanSS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2011
Location: to close to other houses
Posts: 1,176
BP Revolvers aren't even legal here. Caliber of the firearms itself must be .50 or larger and single shot only. I have talked to several people here though, that hunt whitetails successfully with single shot pistols. Loaded with .490 round balls. Wouldn't think a .454 would be that much of a difference.
__________________
One day, Men in tall hats will thump their chests and proclaim..."oh, what a great sea of mud we lived in"--The unalterable fate of billy creek ....
"Smoke.....it's what's for dinner"
BerdanSS is offline  
Old January 27, 2015, 04:08 PM   #28
Erno86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2012
Location: Marriottsville, Maryland
Posts: 1,738
May I suggest avoid using the round ball on deer, because if it hits bone --- other than a rib bone --- the round ball will flatten out like a pie plate.
__________________
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."

--- George Orwell
Erno86 is offline  
Old January 28, 2015, 02:15 PM   #29
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
Legalities aside, prior to the move west, most BP hunting rifles(Kentucky Long Rifle) were .45 calibre or less. Lot of deer killed in them thar days.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old January 28, 2015, 03:52 PM   #30
TimSr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 2,074
Quote:
Legalities aside, prior to the move west, most BP hunting rifles(Kentucky Long Rifle) were .45 calibre or less. Lot of deer killed in them thar days.

True but those 45 cal balls and slugs were moving a lot faster when they came out of the rifle. .45 cal or larger black powder is legal in Ohio from a rifle, and they do an impressive job at twice the velocity.
TimSr is offline  
Old January 28, 2015, 05:46 PM   #31
deerslayer303
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Location: Leesville SC
Posts: 2,652
A .454 ball moving at 1000fps+ should do the job just fine at bow ranges it seems. The longer range work will be done with the TC Hawken. I just gotta get off my duff and get some T7 or some swiss and see how it does. I watched Mike's 6 part video on the Triple 7, and that was the first time I had heard that it doesn't like to be compressed. For those of you who have fired trip 7 in your Remingtons. What is your loading procedure for this powder?
__________________
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson
deerslayer303 is offline  
Old January 28, 2015, 05:47 PM   #32
Snyper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 3,047
Quote:
Legalities aside, prior to the move west, most BP hunting rifles(Kentucky Long Rifle) were .45 calibre or less. Lot of deer killed in them thar days.
I imagine a lot were wounded and lost also
But rifles aren't the topic, and revolvers are much weaker
__________________
One shot, one kill
Snyper is offline  
Old January 28, 2015, 06:04 PM   #33
rodwhaincamo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 7, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,246
"True but those 45 cal balls and slugs were moving a lot faster when they came out of the rifle. .45 cal or larger black powder is legal in Ohio from a rifle, and they do an impressive job at twice the velocity."

But they are traveling about the same velocity at 100 yds as the pistol is at the muzzle. Many people state complete passthroughs at 100-125 yds.
rodwhaincamo is offline  
Old January 28, 2015, 06:06 PM   #34
rodwhaincamo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 7, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,246
I heavily compress 3F T7 in both my Remington and Ruger as it's the only way I know they are consistent. I use 30 grns in the Remington with my 170 and 195 grn bullets and 35 grns in my Ruger as these are the more accurate loads.
rodwhaincamo is offline  
Old January 28, 2015, 07:22 PM   #35
rodwhaincamo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 7, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,246
I looked up load data for a .45 cal rifle and at 100 yds it has the energy of a .45 cal cap and ball at 25 yds (319 ft/lbs vs 310).
rodwhaincamo is offline  
Old January 29, 2015, 09:50 AM   #36
TimSr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 2,074
Quote:
A .454 ball moving at 1000fps+ should do the job just fine at bow ranges it seems.
A .454 gr ball weights around 140gr at 1000fps is almost into the +P range of 6" barreled .38 spl.

I'm getting 900 fps from a 148gr +P from .38 snubbie.

I'd consider that extermely marginal even for bow ranges.
TimSr is offline  
Old January 29, 2015, 10:49 AM   #37
eastbank
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2008
Location: pa.
Posts: 2,450
in the eary 50,s on my dads farm we killed alot of deer in the buckwheat with broadside lung shots out of a old remington .22lr rifle at 50-70 yards(the .22 didn,t spook them) and we could get 3-4 before they would spook. not alot of pass thru,s,but some did and the lung shot deer didn,t go far. eastbank.
eastbank is offline  
Old January 29, 2015, 11:24 AM   #38
maillemaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2010
Posts: 1,635
Sissies. If you aren't hunting with at least a 3" Ordnance Rifle you're just plinking.

Steve
maillemaker is offline  
Old January 29, 2015, 11:34 AM   #39
TimSr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 2,074
Quote:
in the eary 50,s on my dads farm we killed alot of deer in the buckwheat with broadside lung shots out of a old remington .22lr rifle at 50-70 yards(the .22 didn,t spook them) and we could get 3-4 before they would spook. not alot of pass thru,s,but some did and the lung shot deer didn,t go far. eastbank.
The OP asked whether it was ethical to hunt deer with a marginally powered arm. Hunter ethics are personal for individuals, and hopefully based their own judgement of whether the arm they will be using , combined with their own skill are sufficient to take an anumal cleanly, without undue suffering, and with a minimal chance of escaping wounded, and not being recovered.

Bragging about poaching deer with a .22 rimfire, and using that as an example as to why the OP's choice is ethical is a little over the top.
TimSr is offline  
Old January 29, 2015, 01:20 PM   #40
maillemaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2010
Posts: 1,635
Yes, all joking aside, you're going to be better off following the law, not just for legality's sake, but for morality's sake. You want to put the sucker down. There's little reason to use an anemic firearm unless you are in a survival situation.

Steve
maillemaker is offline  
Old January 29, 2015, 05:04 PM   #41
Old Stony
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2013
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1,705
It never ceases to amaze me the amount of people that want to hunt with calibers not designed for the game they are after. Sure a round ball of any size will kill a deer...given the velocity to do it! This velocity will not occur using it out of a pistol...period!
Sure a guy can get lucky, but ethics should enter into the equation somewhere. I really expect someone on here someday claim the .17 hmr as a proper deer caliber, given their expert status with it. Deer have been killed with everything from a .22 LR to a Ford F-150, but neither are the proper tool to do it with.
Old Stony is offline  
Old January 29, 2015, 05:11 PM   #42
eastbank
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2008
Location: pa.
Posts: 2,450
i can see you were never a farmer, when deer get into buckwheat field and fight or roll around they break the stems and the buckwheat develop a rust and rots, its not like regular wheat. it was not poaching then or now, its called crop damage controll and the comparison was only to say that lung shots will kill deer size animals quickly even with the lowly .22. if you ate buckwheat pan cakes in the early 50,s maybe thats why. eastbank.
eastbank is offline  
Old January 29, 2015, 05:29 PM   #43
deerslayer303
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Location: Leesville SC
Posts: 2,652
I will get ahold of a Lee mold and maybe work up a load with the Conicals, you guys are right the roundball may be a little light. It is still beyond me how a 147 grain ball moving at 1000 fps and 300 ft lbs of energy cannot be enough. Anyway I have a press I can load the cylinders off the gun to save modifying the pistol. where we hunt around here 75 to 100 yards is your longest shot, many deer are taken within 50 yards. The Hawken will do most of the work for sure, but if one ventures within 30 yards, I just may take it with the '58.
deerslayer303 is offline  
Old January 29, 2015, 05:30 PM   #44
deerslayer303
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Location: Leesville SC
Posts: 2,652
Anyone have the part number for the Lee Conical mold?
deerslayer303 is offline  
Old January 29, 2015, 05:53 PM   #45
jimbob86
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,722
Quote:
It never ceases to amaze me the amount of people that want to hunt with calibers not designed for the game they are after. Sure a round ball of any size will kill a deer...given the velocity to do it! This velocity will not occur using it out of a pistol...period!
Oh, it'll kill 'em, allright ..... just not real soon, and they won't bleed enough to follow very well..... unless there's a good inch of fresh snow on the ground, a drop of blood every 10-15 yards and one set of tracks among many is a darn hard trail to stay on.

I killed one with a .440" patched round ball, pushed by 90gr of FFFg from 30 yards ..... but the coyotes found it before I did.
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 29, 2015, 06:56 PM   #46
eastbank
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2008
Location: pa.
Posts: 2,450
where did you hit that deer, in the tail? TC,s loading chart lists 90grs ff and a 127gr ball at the muzzle, 2003fps and 1140fpe and with you useing fff it would have a higher fps-fpe. that load would have more fps-fpe than a 125gr bullet(1850fps-950fpe) out of a 6" barreled .357 handgun at the muzzle. if you put that .440gr RB thru a deers lungs it will not be very far away, with a easy trail.eastbank.
eastbank is offline  
Old January 29, 2015, 09:25 PM   #47
jimbob86
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,722
Quote:
where did you hit that deer, in the tail?
Right behind the shoulder. It did not go far- piled up less than 150 yards as the crow flies from where I shot it ...... but it took off running back up the draw where it came from, and out of sight..... the little bit of blood I found led me that way ..... and some fresh tracks misled me to think it kept going that direction out across a small cornfield toward some trees a short distance away, when it in fact got to the end of the trees I was in, took a hard left and went up a little hill about 50 yards and keeled over. I found the 1/2 eaten carcass frozen solid, days later when I hunted the property again.

I had chronographed the load @ a bit over 1850 f/sec. .45 cal flintlock, .440 ball patched with mattress ticking, 90gr of FFFg "Elephant Brand" black powder ....

Chronographing that load was ....... problematic: the blast of smoke kept giving me error messages on my Chrony, even shooting several feet back from the end of the 15 foot remote cable.
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 29, 2015, 10:33 PM   #48
MJN77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2009
Location: on a hill in West Virginia
Posts: 789
Quote:
It never ceases to amaze me the amount of people that.....
......think you need a cannon to kill a deer.

Quote:
Sure a round ball of any size will kill a deer...given the velocity to do it! This velocity will not occur using it out of a pistol...period!
In 1869 Bill Hickok shot Dave Tutt with a percussion revolver (some say he used a Dragoon) at, according to surviving eyewitness accounts and by actual measurement, based upon old city maps, 75 yards. According to the coroner's report, the ball from Hickok’s pistol had entered Mr. Tutt at his fifth rib on the right side and exited through the fifth rib on the left side, passing through his heart. That is a complete pass through and includes at least a couple of layers of clothing on top of meat and bone. But some of you folk don't think a Remington style revolver can kill a deer at 25 yards?

Quote:
I imagine a lot were wounded and lost also
I know of more than a few that were wounded and lost with modern high powered rifles too.

Last edited by MJN77; January 29, 2015 at 10:57 PM.
MJN77 is offline  
Old January 30, 2015, 06:36 AM   #49
Old Stony
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2013
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1,705
I'm sure there are lots of stories around about things getting shot with marginal cartridges and dropping on the spot, but there are always exceptions that can be used to justify about anything of this nature. I just don't understand the shooting of an animal with a minimal cartridge or round ball just to prove a guy can do it. Probably some guy out there that can brag about shooting deer in the ear with his .22 Hornet because of his sniper abilities, but it still is not ethical. An animal is not ballistic media and deserves to be taken humanely.
Old Stony is offline  
Old January 30, 2015, 07:03 AM   #50
Snyper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 3,047
Quote:
I know of more than a few that were wounded and lost with modern high powered rifles too.
All the more reason to not use an anemic round

Quote:
But some of you folk don't think a Remington style revolver can kill a deer at 25 yards?
It's not enough to just "kill" the animal.

It has to be done quickly, and preferably with lots of blood spilled

In most places a round that weak isn't even legal
__________________
One shot, one kill
Snyper is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.07517 seconds with 8 queries