Side-by-Side or Over/Under? - Page 2

Virginian · January 29, 2015, 06:14 AM

Quote:

If you are in search of the best OU, look here: http://www.benelliusa.com/828u-shotgun
Amazing I tell you!

The Benelli Kool Aid bunch may be due for a sour taste. This gun is getting some awful reviews. The Ethos is far from the be all end all either. It is just my opinion, and I think Benelli does build some very good guns, but now they are just trying to increase their profits by making higher priced guns with trick gizmos to capitalize on the tremendous brand loyalty following they have. And they certainly do have that. They have never been my cup of tea, and I think they stepped on it with this one.

MarkCO · January 29, 2015, 09:43 AM

Maybe, but I shot it and played with it more than 6 rounds. I know there are a few "experts" that are panning it, but the guys who can actually shoot a bit are very impressed.

eastbank · January 29, 2015, 10:28 AM

my take on the clay games is for me to have fun, there are four men i shoot with just about every week, except in bad weather. trap-skeet and sporting clays with a few five stands thrown in. between us we own about 50 or so shotguns and many different makes. when we go to shoot we are a happy group and when we leave we are still happy(we stay away from the grumps and real asshats) and always stop and eat and share the days joys of being able to be with good friends and shooting. we are a compeditive group,but are not vindictive towards any one doing better than us. and at smaller ranges we help load the traps,keep score and pick up fired cases(a gold mine some times as we reload). and because of this we are always welcome. i am to old (71) to do any thing i don,t enjoy and i don,t. my shotguns as of today. four o/u,s- six semi auto,s-16 pumps-four double barrels- and two single barrels along with 9-10 extra barrels with a box full of choke tubes. eastbank.

Dreaming100Straight · January 29, 2015, 01:43 PM

Do you have a computer program to track how much attention each of your "wive's" are getting, maintenance, and all. One thing about shooting one gun, not counting the backup, is I hopefully will get to know it inside and out (and someday be able to shoot decently).

BigJimP · January 29, 2015, 02:32 PM

If your goal is to shoot Sporting Clays...then I recommend you groom your fundamentals on the Skeet field...especially on stations 2 thru 6...where you get some pairs ...and a lot of crossing targets.

Once you get your scores consistently in the 22/23 range ...but with no single score on a round below a 20...then you're getting consistent...and you know your foot position, swing technique, gun mount, etc are working...and that the gun "fits" you...

Trap is more of a game unique to itself....and while shooting it may help you / Skeet will help you more ...but your scores on 16 yard singles on Trap should be up around 22/23 as an average as well...or better( and probably no scores below a 21) - because in Trap there are no pairs / and there is less barrel movement - or hard left or right targets like on a Skeet field.

If you can't do that...then you might need an adjustment to the gun...and/or some instruction to clean up your technique. Then you can take it to the Sporting Clays field with some consistency.

Most guys will want to shoot a general purpose gun for Skeet, Sporting, 5 Stand that is around 8.5 lbs ...28" or 30" barrels.../ but shorter than a typical Trap gun ( where many shooters go to guns at around 10 lbs and 32" or 34" barrels).

Will a SXS ...typically give you better scores than an O/U ...not typically! If you look at the top 10 Skeet or Sporting Clays shooters at your local club...you won't see hardly any SXS's....most of the guns will be O/U's ...but there will be a few semi-autos in there as well. Many serious shooters will have SXS's...but they are more for fun / not for clay target competition. But "Fit" is the key .....and mastering the SXS ...will be more difficult..with your sight picture changing a little when using the left and the right barrel...and while its a subtle difference.../ there is no difference in sight picture shooting pairs with an O/U or a single barrel gun like a semi-auto.

But talk to a few dozen of the better shooters in your area...and get their consensus as well.

NoSecondBest · January 29, 2015, 04:41 PM

BigJimP, not bad advice but I'd change one thing. If you're going to learn on a skeet course it won't do you much good to start with a mounted gun which almost all skeet shooters do. I guess you could start with a mounted gun on a clays course but most shooters don't do that. It actually creates a situation where you "aim" at the bird. Just my two cents.

eastbank · January 29, 2015, 04:57 PM

any gun i use gets a light cleaning the same day, it does not take 10 mimutes, a brush on a rod,a rod with a mop and a rod with a tight fitting patch(the rods are on a rack ready to go) and a light wipe down with a oily rag. at 600 rounds they get broken down and well cleaned. as i keep a count of rounds shot its easy to know when its time to break them down and clean. my favorite clay games shotguns are, one brno o/u field, three browning o/u,s trap-field, one browning BT 100-trap, four 1100 rem,s trap-sporting-field, two 11-87 rem,s trap- field, four 870 rem,s trap-field, five md 12 win,s trap-field. to feed them all i run three mec 9000,s two manual and one hydralic, a mec 650 and a old progressive texan. eastbank.

Pat T · January 29, 2015, 07:24 PM

I love them both. But for clays games where there is much shooting and not a lot of time for the barrels to cool, the O/U win if it has a ventilated rib. This is the Achilles heel of the SxS IMHO.

FITASC · January 29, 2015, 08:12 PM

Quote:

I guess you could start with a mounted gun on a clays course but most shooters don't do that.

Not where I shoot unless you are shooting my namesake - FITASC mandates a low gun; American (English) sporting clays allows a pre-mount, as does 5-stand, skeet, trap, bunker, helice, box pigeons.........

Quote:

It actually creates a situation where you "aim" at the bird. Just my two cents.

No, it doesn't - there is no aiming in shotgun sports except by those coming over from rifle and they soon learn the correct method

Virginian · January 29, 2015, 10:07 PM

And then there's Helice... It's tough.

zippy13 · January 29, 2015, 10:25 PM

I'm with my friend, olddrum, first things first -- check your eyes. I've seen folks try to shoot for some time before discovering they had an eye dominance problem.

NoSecondBest · January 30, 2015, 12:23 AM

Quote:

No, it doesn't - there is no aiming in shotgun sports except by those coming over from rifle and they soon learn the correct method

Either you didn't read the post or don't comprehend what was said.

Dreaming100Straight · January 30, 2015, 02:30 AM

I suspect that FITASC read and well comprehends what you said. I almost mentioned my own disagreement with you, but am myself such a newbie I kept silent. I suppose that premounting can dispose one who doesn't know better to aim a shotgun like a rifle. I believe you were specifically speaking of sporting clays, which I have next to know experience with. I recently picked up Skeet, but have shot more trap and in both games one's look point is almost always away from the gun's hold point. FITASC can instruct you much better on these and other games than I ever could.

eastbank · January 30, 2015, 07:46 AM

where i shoot the clay games its your choice to pre-mount or not, i shoot both ways, but as i,m not the fastest gun on the range i use a tighter choke on low mount. i have been shooting the clay games since the mid 60,s and while i don,t aim a shotgun, i,m awhere of the muzzle in relationship to the bird. example- if your trap gun has a high poi for riseing birds and you get a hard left or right how do you compensate for that bird not riseing as fast if you don,t know where the muzzle is pointing? i will shoot aganist any shooter at trap or skeet 50 birds at a dollar a bird difference in the score and while i will not beat many, i will only lose a couple of bucks and i would consider it a honor get beaten by a pro. if you look at the games as fun and a good time, i will never see you throw your equipment on the ground, curse, holler or belittle follow shooters and i have seen all those things happen. eastbank.

RobinTN · January 30, 2015, 11:43 AM

The barrel on the same side as where the bird is coming from might be in the way for a while longer with a SXS. Since you can't see through a steel barrel, it seems like a disadvantage to me over a single barrel or O/U on many target presentations. Even single barrels quite often have raised ribs to get the gun out of the way to help acquire a target asap...at least for fading/rising targets like for trap shooting.

That's how I see it, anyhow.

BigJimP · January 30, 2015, 12:45 PM

In Sporting Clays...since you know exactly where the bird is coming from - and its flight path, prior to shooting the station ...there is no disadvantage to shooting a high gun - and the rules permit it.

At some stations I will shoot a high gun ( depends on what the targets are - and how well I can see them )....or I will use Bobby Fowler Jr's technique - where I premount the gun - and then drop the muzzle but leave the stock in contact with my shoulder if I have a lot of time or a lot of trees or brush that obscures the target on its path.

But if the targets are fast ...and with small windows to take them in an optimal spot...shooting high gun is just fine in my view. But I'm not a Master Class shooter either...the best I've ever done was class A / and I stayed in Class B for a long time.

RobinTN · January 30, 2015, 12:59 PM

Jim you sound experienced. So I ask, if you were to shoot a SXS at a SC event, do you feel you'd be disadvantaged or not over other shotgun styles.

NoSecondBest · January 30, 2015, 01:01 PM

drumroll...........I think I know what the answer will be.

Dreaming100Straight · January 30, 2015, 02:06 PM

No one should say that Jim is disadvantaged even if he is. The guy has feelings.

RobinTN · January 30, 2015, 03:40 PM

I could have asked if he'd feel equipment limited...run with that one.

FITASC · January 30, 2015, 04:36 PM

IF your gun fits, no matter what type, you will do well. That said, most SxS guns are lightweight field guns and can be difficult to shoot well over a long day. Another thing to consider is that a lot of U.S. folks grew up shooting single barrel guns, so the familiarity in their view also leads to greater success.

Shoot whatever you want and like, BUT if your goal is to compete down the road, the single sight plane, especially of the O/U rules the clay games.

If you're just in this for grins and giggles, do what makes it the most fun!

BigJimP · January 30, 2015, 04:58 PM

To me...a SXS would be a disadvantage...just in terms of the sight plane issues.

Like others have said ...most SXS's...have narrow throats in the grip area, they are often lighter and shorter...none of which I like in a competition gun that I'm going to use to shoot 10 or more boxes a week..in practice and/or competition. But even if I spent the money to have it restocked...so it would be thicker in the grip area...and more of a parallel comb, which I prefer ...and a longer length of pull, and add weight...I still can't get past the barrels being side by side...and its inherent disadvantage ( so I would not spend $4,000 or more to restock a SXS )...when I can buy so many other guns for around $4,000 that will meet the specs I need in a gun.....

The O/U - to me, is just a better tool ...in the field and/or in competition / and I think that is true of most shooters.
( and yes I'm handicapped ..and getting old ..and cranky ...and set in my ways).

My primary Field gun, Sporting Clays, 5 Stand, Skeet gun ...is the Browning Citori, XS Skeet model ( no longer in their catalog )...and I happen to have them in a 12ga, a 20ga ..and in a 28ga and a .410...they all have 30" barrels and all weigh about 8.5 lbs....( now the 20ga, 28ga and .410 ) were all built by Browning on the 20ga receiver...so right out of the box..they are almost one pound lighter than the 12ga versions .....so I add 8 oz under the forend ( I use lead golf club tape)...and I put 8 oz inside the stock ( in the stock bolt hole)...to get that pound back - so all 4 guns feel the same...and I position both of the weights carefully, so the balance point on the gun is not changed.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...1&d=1339792349
the XS Skeet models....
( You will still find a lot of XS Skeet models, new in boxes, still around - they've only been out of the catalog for about a year...and they were made for at least 15 years...or more )....
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For Trap ...I go to a Citori XT O/U with 32" barrels at around 10 lbs...but I use the XT's for Trap only.....they're a little too long and too heavy for a good general purpose gun, in my view.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...3&d=1339792349
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I have other dedicated Trap guns ...like a BT-100....but I don't shoot it much / I like the XT's better.....( but I keep the BT-100 around...)...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...2&d=1339792349

BigJimP · January 30, 2015, 05:07 PM

If I were younger ...and still serious about competition....I would buy the Krieghoff K-80 ....with parallel adjustable comb and 30" barrels ....and I would buy the gun with a "Carrier Barrel" ...that cannot be shot, except with full length tubes in it ...( and have a full Tube set...for 20ga, 28ga and .410 )...and then have a stand alone 12ga barrel for the same gun. The idea of the Carrier barrel....is the 12ga...and the carrier barrel, with the tubes in it --- are identical.

Its a better system...( and easier to drag around to shoots )..than 4 guns. Today its about a $ 25,000 proposition..with chokes and everything.....where you can still get 4 stand along Browning Citori's like I have ...
for around $ 16,000 with chokes, 4 cases, etc...

Now if you get carried away ....with fancier stock options on the K-80 and some engraving ...which are both very nice.../ that set for the K-80 can set you back easily around $ 40,000....

I shoot for fun now ....and only a few local and regional touraments..( when the weather is nice )...my eyes are not good ...and I have not won a tournament, not even in my class, for several years...( and I was never that good anyway - I was a class A for awhile / and spent a lot of time in Class B on registered sporting clays shoots. / getting to AA or Master Class would have required a lot more practice and time than I was willing to commit..and still be able to run my business / I could beat some of those guys, on rare occasions...but never month in and month out...

That set of Browning Citori's ...did not hold me back / a SXS, would not have worked nearly as well for me...even if I had it custom stocked to fit me.

Virginian · January 30, 2015, 06:53 PM

in re: the 828U

Quote:

I know there are a few "experts" that are panning it, but the guys who can actually shoot a bit are very impressed.

I don't know anyone who can actually shoot who shoots an inertia semi or a light O/U at clays. For a field gun, yes certainly, and I know the Benelli guys will buy it.
I am well past trying to hit the absolute maximum number of clays. I shoot a 20 gauge SxS or a 20 or 28 gauge 1100 99% of the time. I could no doubt do a little better with a 12, I have and the true experts do, but I shoot to have fun now, and I do.

BigJimP · January 30, 2015, 07:18 PM

We keep discussing Fit in this thread....and one point is Browning today makes at least 25 versions of the Citori line of guns / and I'm admittedly a big Citori fan...but less than 6 of the current line of Citori guns will fit me, right out of the box.

I have field grade Citori's ...with angled combs / 28" barrels in both 12ga and a 20ga.../ and as they are configured at factory, I can't hit anything with them either. But it has nothing to do with the gun ....its about the "Fit"...that Field comb has way too much drop at comb and at the heel for me...so to make that gun hit where I look - I have to fit the comb with an angled comb pad..to make the comb more level...so it hits where I look.

The reason I like the parallel comb models...is shooting in a T shirt in summer...or a sweatshirt and a heavy coat and vest in winter...while my cheek may move up or back on the gun at least an inch...the point of impact does not change based on what I'm wearing. So I can shoot that one gun...with the comb set exactly the same ...summer and winter. I can't do that with any gun that has an angled comb...unless I do something to adjust the way the comb fits me, by season, based on what I need to wear in the field or at tournaments.

Take the gun you own to a pattern board...put in a pair of full chokes...at say at 24 yds...check the point of impact from both barrels. Shoot 2 or three shells out of each barrel at a 3" Dot on pattern board...and see what your point of impact is ....if its not consistent you have some mount issues too...but if its 6 or 8" high or low...that's why the gun doesn't fit you.

You're going to be way ahead...to go to your local club...shoot the current Citori you own...and see what its doing ...and fix that...than messing around with a SXS or anything else.
------------------
All of this talk about the Benelli O/U...in reality, I think its ugly ...but that aside, we won't know much about it until someone we know puts a few thousand shells thru it.../ Beretta and Browning O/U's have earned their reputations on the clay target fields ( my 12ga XS Skeet has well over 500,000 shells thru it - with no issues / and I think its about 13 yrs old ) ....and the current offerings from Benelli might get there / or it might not - although I like Benelli ...it won't necessarily stand up as well as the guns offered by its parent company, Beretta / let alone the Citori line from Browning.
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I don't see anything wrong with the 725 line of the Citori from Browning ..if you find a model that will fit you ! The field or sporting versions ..have way too much drop at the comp / and drop at the heel for me ...and while I've seen their Trap version...I think the comb is too high to suit me for a general purpose gun....
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Beretta's don't fit me ....too thin in the grip area / they tend to be lighter..and while they have 1 or 2 models like the DT??...with parallel combs, I like the heft, the forend, etc better on the XS Skeet Citori. Even little things like the Beavertail forend, vs Schnabel forend...make a big difference to me..and to most experienced shooters....
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But a lot of this stuff is personal.....I'm 6'5" and about 290 lbs..with big hands / my shooting buddy is 5'10" and 175 lbs soaking wet.../ he thinks my Brownings, 30" barrels at 8.5 lbs are like swinging big sewer pipes...they're too heavy and clumsy to him / he shoots a K-80 with 26" barrels at around 9 lbs...I think its way too short and the extra weight doesn't help - it just doesn't feel right to me.
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When I shoot my Benelli Super Sport semi-auto in 12ga, 30" barrel its only 7.2 lbs and even with the 30" barrel, its too "whippy" to me...and even though I have the optional comb pad, etc on it making it a parallel comb..its too light. So I add about a pound under the forend...and another pound inside the stock...to give it more heft...and it smooths it out for me.

I can't shoot one round with my O/U's ....and then go to the Benelli ...and maintain my scores....it takes 10 or 12 targets for me to get used to the lighter gun again -- and the different trigger -- and just the little things on how it feels. But once I settle in - my scores come back up ( mid 90's on skeet out of 100 / and in low 80's on sporting ) especially these days is all I can do....

So what suits me ....or what suits my buddy ...may not be what suits you ...

January 29, 2015, 09:43 AM	#27
MarkCO Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 1998 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 4,307	828U Maybe, but I shot it and played with it more than 6 rounds. I know there are a few "experts" that are panning it, but the guys who can actually shoot a bit are very impressed. __________________ Good Shooting, MarkCO www.CarbonArms.us

January 29, 2015, 10:28 AM	#28
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	my take on the clay games is for me to have fun, there are four men i shoot with just about every week, except in bad weather. trap-skeet and sporting clays with a few five stands thrown in. between us we own about 50 or so shotguns and many different makes. when we go to shoot we are a happy group and when we leave we are still happy(we stay away from the grumps and real asshats) and always stop and eat and share the days joys of being able to be with good friends and shooting. we are a compeditive group,but are not vindictive towards any one doing better than us. and at smaller ranges we help load the traps,keep score and pick up fired cases(a gold mine some times as we reload). and because of this we are always welcome. i am to old (71) to do any thing i don,t enjoy and i don,t. my shotguns as of today. four o/u,s- six semi auto,s-16 pumps-four double barrels- and two single barrels along with 9-10 extra barrels with a box full of choke tubes. eastbank. Last edited by eastbank; January 29, 2015 at 10:41 AM.

January 29, 2015, 02:32 PM	#30
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	If your goal is to shoot Sporting Clays...then I recommend you groom your fundamentals on the Skeet field...especially on stations 2 thru 6...where you get some pairs ...and a lot of crossing targets. Once you get your scores consistently in the 22/23 range ...but with no single score on a round below a 20...then you're getting consistent...and you know your foot position, swing technique, gun mount, etc are working...and that the gun "fits" you... Trap is more of a game unique to itself....and while shooting it may help you / Skeet will help you more ...but your scores on 16 yard singles on Trap should be up around 22/23 as an average as well...or better( and probably no scores below a 21) - because in Trap there are no pairs / and there is less barrel movement - or hard left or right targets like on a Skeet field. If you can't do that...then you might need an adjustment to the gun...and/or some instruction to clean up your technique. Then you can take it to the Sporting Clays field with some consistency. Most guys will want to shoot a general purpose gun for Skeet, Sporting, 5 Stand that is around 8.5 lbs ...28" or 30" barrels.../ but shorter than a typical Trap gun ( where many shooters go to guns at around 10 lbs and 32" or 34" barrels). Will a SXS ...typically give you better scores than an O/U ...not typically! If you look at the top 10 Skeet or Sporting Clays shooters at your local club...you won't see hardly any SXS's....most of the guns will be O/U's ...but there will be a few semi-autos in there as well. Many serious shooters will have SXS's...but they are more for fun / not for clay target competition. But "Fit" is the key .....and mastering the SXS ...will be more difficult..with your sight picture changing a little when using the left and the right barrel...and while its a subtle difference.../ there is no difference in sight picture shooting pairs with an O/U or a single barrel gun like a semi-auto. But talk to a few dozen of the better shooters in your area...and get their consensus as well. Last edited by BigJimP; January 29, 2015 at 02:40 PM.

January 29, 2015, 07:24 PM	#33
Pat T Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2009 Location: NW PA Posts: 108	O/U or SxS I love them both. But for clays games where there is much shooting and not a lot of time for the barrels to cool, the O/U win if it has a ventilated rib. This is the Achilles heel of the SxS IMHO.

January 29, 2015, 10:07 PM	#35
Virginian Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2012 Location: Williamsburg, Va. Posts: 1,528	And then there's Helice... It's tough. __________________ What could have happened... did.

January 29, 2015, 01:43 PM	#29
Dreaming100Straight Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2013 Posts: 1,235	Do you have a computer program to track how much attention each of your "wive's" are getting, maintenance, and all. One thing about shooting one gun, not counting the backup, is I hopefully will get to know it inside and out (and someday be able to shoot decently).

January 29, 2015, 04:41 PM	#31
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	BigJimP, not bad advice but I'd change one thing. If you're going to learn on a skeet course it won't do you much good to start with a mounted gun which almost all skeet shooters do. I guess you could start with a mounted gun on a clays course but most shooters don't do that. It actually creates a situation where you "aim" at the bird. Just my two cents.

January 29, 2015, 04:57 PM	#32
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	any gun i use gets a light cleaning the same day, it does not take 10 mimutes, a brush on a rod,a rod with a mop and a rod with a tight fitting patch(the rods are on a rack ready to go) and a light wipe down with a oily rag. at 600 rounds they get broken down and well cleaned. as i keep a count of rounds shot its easy to know when its time to break them down and clean. my favorite clay games shotguns are, one brno o/u field, three browning o/u,s trap-field, one browning BT 100-trap, four 1100 rem,s trap-sporting-field, two 11-87 rem,s trap- field, four 870 rem,s trap-field, five md 12 win,s trap-field. to feed them all i run three mec 9000,s two manual and one hydralic, a mec 650 and a old progressive texan. eastbank.

January 29, 2015, 10:25 PM	#36
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	I'm with my friend, olddrum, first things first -- check your eyes. I've seen folks try to shoot for some time before discovering they had an eye dominance problem.

January 30, 2015, 02:30 AM	#38
Dreaming100Straight Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2013 Posts: 1,235	I suspect that FITASC read and well comprehends what you said. I almost mentioned my own disagreement with you, but am myself such a newbie I kept silent. I suppose that premounting can dispose one who doesn't know better to aim a shotgun like a rifle. I believe you were specifically speaking of sporting clays, which I have next to know experience with. I recently picked up Skeet, but have shot more trap and in both games one's look point is almost always away from the gun's hold point. FITASC can instruct you much better on these and other games than I ever could.

January 30, 2015, 07:46 AM	#39
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	where i shoot the clay games its your choice to pre-mount or not, i shoot both ways, but as i,m not the fastest gun on the range i use a tighter choke on low mount. i have been shooting the clay games since the mid 60,s and while i don,t aim a shotgun, i,m awhere of the muzzle in relationship to the bird. example- if your trap gun has a high poi for riseing birds and you get a hard left or right how do you compensate for that bird not riseing as fast if you don,t know where the muzzle is pointing? i will shoot aganist any shooter at trap or skeet 50 birds at a dollar a bird difference in the score and while i will not beat many, i will only lose a couple of bucks and i would consider it a honor get beaten by a pro. if you look at the games as fun and a good time, i will never see you throw your equipment on the ground, curse, holler or belittle follow shooters and i have seen all those things happen. eastbank.

January 30, 2015, 11:43 AM	#40
RobinTN Member Join Date: January 30, 2015 Location: East, TN Posts: 17	The barrel on the same side as where the bird is coming from might be in the way for a while longer with a SXS. Since you can't see through a steel barrel, it seems like a disadvantage to me over a single barrel or O/U on many target presentations. Even single barrels quite often have raised ribs to get the gun out of the way to help acquire a target asap...at least for fading/rising targets like for trap shooting. That's how I see it, anyhow. __________________ Happiness is wanting what you get.

January 30, 2015, 12:45 PM	#41
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	In Sporting Clays...since you know exactly where the bird is coming from - and its flight path, prior to shooting the station ...there is no disadvantage to shooting a high gun - and the rules permit it. At some stations I will shoot a high gun ( depends on what the targets are - and how well I can see them )....or I will use Bobby Fowler Jr's technique - where I premount the gun - and then drop the muzzle but leave the stock in contact with my shoulder if I have a lot of time or a lot of trees or brush that obscures the target on its path. But if the targets are fast ...and with small windows to take them in an optimal spot...shooting high gun is just fine in my view. But I'm not a Master Class shooter either...the best I've ever done was class A / and I stayed in Class B for a long time.

January 30, 2015, 12:59 PM	#42
RobinTN Member Join Date: January 30, 2015 Location: East, TN Posts: 17	Jim you sound experienced. So I ask, if you were to shoot a SXS at a SC event, do you feel you'd be disadvantaged or not over other shotgun styles. __________________ Happiness is wanting what you get.

January 30, 2015, 01:01 PM	#43
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	drumroll...........I think I know what the answer will be.

January 30, 2015, 02:06 PM	#44
Dreaming100Straight Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2013 Posts: 1,235	No one should say that Jim is disadvantaged even if he is. The guy has feelings.

January 30, 2015, 03:40 PM	#45
RobinTN Member Join Date: January 30, 2015 Location: East, TN Posts: 17	I could have asked if he'd feel equipment limited...run with that one. __________________ Happiness is wanting what you get.

January 30, 2015, 04:36 PM	#46
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,440	IF your gun fits, no matter what type, you will do well. That said, most SxS guns are lightweight field guns and can be difficult to shoot well over a long day. Another thing to consider is that a lot of U.S. folks grew up shooting single barrel guns, so the familiarity in their view also leads to greater success. Shoot whatever you want and like, BUT if your goal is to compete down the road, the single sight plane, especially of the O/U rules the clay games. If you're just in this for grins and giggles, do what makes it the most fun!

January 30, 2015, 04:58 PM	#47
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	To me...a SXS would be a disadvantage...just in terms of the sight plane issues. Like others have said ...most SXS's...have narrow throats in the grip area, they are often lighter and shorter...none of which I like in a competition gun that I'm going to use to shoot 10 or more boxes a week..in practice and/or competition. But even if I spent the money to have it restocked...so it would be thicker in the grip area...and more of a parallel comb, which I prefer ...and a longer length of pull, and add weight...I still can't get past the barrels being side by side...and its inherent disadvantage ( so I would not spend $4,000 or more to restock a SXS )...when I can buy so many other guns for around $4,000 that will meet the specs I need in a gun..... The O/U - to me, is just a better tool ...in the field and/or in competition / and I think that is true of most shooters. ( and yes I'm handicapped ..and getting old ..and cranky ...and set in my ways). My primary Field gun, Sporting Clays, 5 Stand, Skeet gun ...is the Browning Citori, XS Skeet model ( no longer in their catalog )...and I happen to have them in a 12ga, a 20ga ..and in a 28ga and a .410...they all have 30" barrels and all weigh about 8.5 lbs....( now the 20ga, 28ga and .410 ) were all built by Browning on the 20ga receiver...so right out of the box..they are almost one pound lighter than the 12ga versions .....so I add 8 oz under the forend ( I use lead golf club tape)...and I put 8 oz inside the stock ( in the stock bolt hole)...to get that pound back - so all 4 guns feel the same...and I position both of the weights carefully, so the balance point on the gun is not changed. http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...1&d=1339792349 the XS Skeet models.... ( You will still find a lot of XS Skeet models, new in boxes, still around - they've only been out of the catalog for about a year...and they were made for at least 15 years...or more ).... ----------- For Trap ...I go to a Citori XT O/U with 32" barrels at around 10 lbs...but I use the XT's for Trap only.....they're a little too long and too heavy for a good general purpose gun, in my view. http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...3&d=1339792349 ----------- I have other dedicated Trap guns ...like a BT-100....but I don't shoot it much / I like the XT's better.....( but I keep the BT-100 around...)... http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...2&d=1339792349

January 30, 2015, 05:07 PM	#48
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	If I were younger ...and still serious about competition....I would buy the Krieghoff K-80 ....with parallel adjustable comb and 30" barrels ....and I would buy the gun with a "Carrier Barrel" ...that cannot be shot, except with full length tubes in it ...( and have a full Tube set...for 20ga, 28ga and .410 )...and then have a stand alone 12ga barrel for the same gun. The idea of the Carrier barrel....is the 12ga...and the carrier barrel, with the tubes in it --- are identical. Its a better system...( and easier to drag around to shoots )..than 4 guns. Today its about a $ 25,000 proposition..with chokes and everything.....where you can still get 4 stand along Browning Citori's like I have ... for around $ 16,000 with chokes, 4 cases, etc... Now if you get carried away ....with fancier stock options on the K-80 and some engraving ...which are both very nice.../ that set for the K-80 can set you back easily around $ 40,000.... I shoot for fun now ....and only a few local and regional touraments..( when the weather is nice )...my eyes are not good ...and I have not won a tournament, not even in my class, for several years...( and I was never that good anyway - I was a class A for awhile / and spent a lot of time in Class B on registered sporting clays shoots. / getting to AA or Master Class would have required a lot more practice and time than I was willing to commit..and still be able to run my business / I could beat some of those guys, on rare occasions...but never month in and month out... That set of Browning Citori's ...did not hold me back / a SXS, would not have worked nearly as well for me...even if I had it custom stocked to fit me. Last edited by BigJimP; January 30, 2015 at 05:13 PM.

January 30, 2015, 07:18 PM	#50
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	We keep discussing Fit in this thread....and one point is Browning today makes at least 25 versions of the Citori line of guns / and I'm admittedly a big Citori fan...but less than 6 of the current line of Citori guns will fit me, right out of the box. I have field grade Citori's ...with angled combs / 28" barrels in both 12ga and a 20ga.../ and as they are configured at factory, I can't hit anything with them either. But it has nothing to do with the gun ....its about the "Fit"...that Field comb has way too much drop at comb and at the heel for me...so to make that gun hit where I look - I have to fit the comb with an angled comb pad..to make the comb more level...so it hits where I look. The reason I like the parallel comb models...is shooting in a T shirt in summer...or a sweatshirt and a heavy coat and vest in winter...while my cheek may move up or back on the gun at least an inch...the point of impact does not change based on what I'm wearing. So I can shoot that one gun...with the comb set exactly the same ...summer and winter. I can't do that with any gun that has an angled comb...unless I do something to adjust the way the comb fits me, by season, based on what I need to wear in the field or at tournaments. Take the gun you own to a pattern board...put in a pair of full chokes...at say at 24 yds...check the point of impact from both barrels. Shoot 2 or three shells out of each barrel at a 3" Dot on pattern board...and see what your point of impact is ....if its not consistent you have some mount issues too...but if its 6 or 8" high or low...that's why the gun doesn't fit you. You're going to be way ahead...to go to your local club...shoot the current Citori you own...and see what its doing ...and fix that...than messing around with a SXS or anything else. ------------------ All of this talk about the Benelli O/U...in reality, I think its ugly ...but that aside, we won't know much about it until someone we know puts a few thousand shells thru it.../ Beretta and Browning O/U's have earned their reputations on the clay target fields ( my 12ga XS Skeet has well over 500,000 shells thru it - with no issues / and I think its about 13 yrs old ) ....and the current offerings from Benelli might get there / or it might not - although I like Benelli ...it won't necessarily stand up as well as the guns offered by its parent company, Beretta / let alone the Citori line from Browning. ----------------- I don't see anything wrong with the 725 line of the Citori from Browning ..if you find a model that will fit you ! The field or sporting versions ..have way too much drop at the comp / and drop at the heel for me ...and while I've seen their Trap version...I think the comb is too high to suit me for a general purpose gun.... ----------------------- Beretta's don't fit me ....too thin in the grip area / they tend to be lighter..and while they have 1 or 2 models like the DT??...with parallel combs, I like the heft, the forend, etc better on the XS Skeet Citori. Even little things like the Beavertail forend, vs Schnabel forend...make a big difference to me..and to most experienced shooters.... ------------------ But a lot of this stuff is personal.....I'm 6'5" and about 290 lbs..with big hands / my shooting buddy is 5'10" and 175 lbs soaking wet.../ he thinks my Brownings, 30" barrels at 8.5 lbs are like swinging big sewer pipes...they're too heavy and clumsy to him / he shoots a K-80 with 26" barrels at around 9 lbs...I think its way too short and the extra weight doesn't help - it just doesn't feel right to me. ------------------ When I shoot my Benelli Super Sport semi-auto in 12ga, 30" barrel its only 7.2 lbs and even with the 30" barrel, its too "whippy" to me...and even though I have the optional comb pad, etc on it making it a parallel comb..its too light. So I add about a pound under the forend...and another pound inside the stock...to give it more heft...and it smooths it out for me. I can't shoot one round with my O/U's ....and then go to the Benelli ...and maintain my scores....it takes 10 or 12 targets for me to get used to the lighter gun again -- and the different trigger -- and just the little things on how it feels. But once I settle in - my scores come back up ( mid 90's on skeet out of 100 / and in low 80's on sporting ) especially these days is all I can do.... So what suits me ....or what suits my buddy ...may not be what suits you ... Last edited by BigJimP; January 30, 2015 at 07:36 PM.

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