9mm, HS-6 and CCI Magnum primers

[usnr2003]

OK. I was doing an inventory of my on-hand primers and I see that I accidentally bought some CCI 550 SPM primers. I can't return them, so I either need to use them or give them to someone who can.

Anyway, I load (mostly) 9mm, using HS-6 (6.4 gr) and 115 gr plated FMJ bullets. I've always used CCI 500 SP before and have had good success with this load.

Doing a little research, I've seen opinions that lighter loads of HS-6 behave nicely with magnum primers for 9mm (burn a little cleaner, minimal impact to velocity). I'm toward the light end of the recommended load data for HS-6 and 115gr plated.

I've also seen opinions that if I use a magnum primer in 9mm I'm asking for a wrecked pistol or a trip to the hospital.

Just wondering if anyone has experience with this combo. Else I'll just not use the magnum primers.

Thanks!

[skizzums]

i have started using magnum for all my loads, I found that my 9mm's have no problem setting them off reliably, so I don't feel like having to inventory two kinds of SPP's. hs-6 is a wonderful 9mm powder for maximum velocity loads and i'm sure the mag primer will help get all the powder burned since its a high pressure max capacity powder. I personally don't change anything from mag primer to regular primer, some people will recommend you start with .1-.2 gr lower for your work-up. I have heard some people with DAO pistols like kel-tec/sccy/lcr not reliably hitting hard enough to ignite mag primers, so figure out with your gun before making a ton.

wrecked pistol? no....unless your already pushing the limit on +p and a few more psi is going to make or break your pistol. I would love to hear a first-hand account of a trip to the hospital from a mag primer. like a said, your biggest hurdle is light strikes and you should start 5% lower on your load and check for pressure signs. I couldn't tell a difference between the two pressure/velocity-wise.

[tangolima]

I would just drop the charge by 10% and up the load from there.

-TL

[MtnCreek]

Reduce by ~0.2grs and re-work to be safe. A 10% reduction may result in cycle issues.

I us mag primers in all my HS6 loads and get excellent SD's.

[Nick_C_S]

I use CCI 550's with HS-6 / 9mm all the time. Whether the published data specifies it or not, HS-6 has a long reputation of being well served by the use of magnum primers. Of course, always do a proper load workup whenever you make a component change.

One of my more loaded recipes with a 115g FMJ is 6.8g HS-6 - with a CCI 550 primer. It delivers 1079 fps through a 3.7" bbl; and 1151 fps through a 5" bbl. The round runs quiet well with no signs of pressure whatsoever. This recipe is well within compliance of Speer #14 - with the exception of the magnum primer.

[Sevens]

We've been offered evidence to suggest that CCI's small pistol magnum primer... and their small rifle non-magnum primer... are the same primer. So if you also load something that calls for a small rifle primer, use them for that.

I can tell you that when I want a small pistol magnum primer, that's what I'm doing -- using CCI-400 small rifle. I use them in some .357 Magnum loads.

If you wish to use a different primer... be it a magnum primer or simply a different brand, just drop your load and re-work it to where you wish to be. As long as your pistol and it's hammer/striker arrangement have no issues making them ignite, there's no reason whatsoever that you can't use them. Just be smart about it.

[WESHOOT2]

I have noticed negative accuracy effects using Magnum primers in 9x19, regardless of powder.

[Jim Watson]

On the other hand, HS6 (with standard primers) was the only powder I have loaded that was dirty enough to coke up my gun to the point of malfunction in one match or practice session. Meters like a dream and delivers high velocity but I could not put up with that. Maybe magnum primers would have helped, but I did not have any to try.

[Nick_C_S]

I have noticed negative accuracy effects using Magnum primers in 9x19, regardless of powder.

I have noticed negative accuracy effects with 9x19 - period.

Quips aside, I just don't find 9mm to be accurate compared to any other cartridge I've shot. I think the bores tend to be big with regular production firearms (modified, specialized sport shooters are probably a different story). I've never tried .357" lead slugs, but I bet that'd help. But I'm over it. I just shoot other calibers that are more fun anyway.

[Nick_C_S]

Jim Watson: I'm curious what your recipe was.

Yes, HS-6 has an earned reputation of running filthy. But, if you load it up in its sweet spot, it's actually quite clean. And that is why I recommend HS-6 for the novice loader (not implying you're a novice loader), because it talks to you. It let's you know when it's underloaded. It's also forgiving on the top end too because it behaves more "linear" than a lot of powders in its speed range, and thus, not inclined to pressure spikes.

It also runs cool, lending itself to use with lead - but that's another post.

I like HS-6.

[tangolima]

HS6 is not ideal for light loads. You will have incomplete combustion, and hence dirty guns.

-TL

[Jim Watson]

Maybe I was underloaded:

9mm P
147 gr Hornady RNBT + 5.3 gr HS6 = 875 fps SD 7 Lyman Max 5.8
124 gr Remington FMC + 6.4 gr HS6 = 1068 fps SD 10 Lyman Max 6.6

145 gr Valley Cast RN + 5.0 gr HS6 = 883 fps ? SD 31 ES Lyman Max 5.0.

[Nick_C_S]

HS6 is not ideal for light loads. You will have incomplete combustion, and hence dirty guns.

Or more specifically: Low pressure.

I've put a complete moratorium on using HS-6 for 38 and 44 Special.

357/44 Mag is fine with heavy (158/240) bullets. I can get it to run clean with 357 Mag 125g JHP's, but it won't run consistent, showing high Standard Deviations. HS-6 is still problematic with these chamberings, despite their being high pressure. I believe the long/narrow aspect ratio of the case exacerbates the situation. But still, good rounds can be loaded for these chamberings with HS-6. I load a lot of 158 JHP's with HS-6 - with very good results. It's my go-to recipe for recoil practice for my CCW revolver.

It works with 45 ACP - even though it's low pressure - when you load it up near the top of the published data. In fact, it runs real well that way. I believe that the short/fat aspect ratio of the 45 ACP case helps overcome its low pressure shortcomings. Just a theory.

I have the best luck with HS-6 with 9mm & 10mm (I don't load 40 S&W). It seems most "normal" and well-behaved with these chamberings.

[Nick_C_S]

124 gr Remington FMC + 6.4 gr HS6 = 1068 fps SD 10 Lyman Max 6.6

145 gr Valley Cast RN + 5.0 gr HS6 = 883 fps ? SD 31 ES Lyman Max 5.0.

Jim Watson: You've been looking at my loading logs again, haven't you

Looks very similar to mine.

I would think those should run fairly clean - all thee of them (not just the two I quoted for levity). I'm not going to dissect your OAL's etc and pretend to be an expert. All I have is personal experience and I load less 9mm than any other cartridge (factory ammo is still somewhat cheap; I have a lot of it; and I only shoot 9mm for CCW practice, basically). Could be a lot of variables causing the filth. It's a bit mysterious as to why you're having problems. Sorry.

[usnr2003]

Thanks for all the replies!

Getting off on a tangential subject, in the discussion of HS-6 being "dirty" at light loads - I don't have a chronograph to measure velocity (sounds like I should get one!) but I'm loading toward the lower end of the recommended levels for plated 115gr.

I've had good reliability of function in all 3 of my 9mm's - definately no signs of overpressure at this load level.

As for underpressure, how can I tell? The cases don't appear to be too streaked from gas blowby, and as far as I can tell, my loads don't seem to be any more "dirty" than the commercial 115gr ammo I've tried.

Beyond a chrony, is there something else I should look for to help determine underpressue?

[Snyper]

You'll never notice any difference at all in the primers

If your loads work well, don't worry about "underpressure" either

People get too carried away with worrying over minor details

[WESHOOT2]

9mm to be accurate compared to any other cartridge

I note numerous Bullseye competitors find 'sufficient' accuracy with a 9x19 (121g Hornady HAP, 6.0g Power Pistol, Federal 100, sorted or new sized cases).


All that aside, I'd still test your load with the 550s.

[T. O'Heir]

Magnum primers are about the powder used not the cartridge. They burn a bit hotter for a bit longer and are for igniting hard to light powders and cold weather shooting.
You might see some pressure changes, but you won't see any catastrophic failures. If that was possible magnum primers would be off the market so fast you're head would spin.
"...I note numerous Bullseye competitors find 'sufficient' accuracy with a 9x19..." You know people using 9mm for bullseye? There are no pistols or bullets up to serious target shooting and no serious target shoot would ever use a 9mm.

[Jim Watson]

This would be news to the CMP EIC Service Pistol shooters who do at least as well with an accurized Beretta as an Accurized 1911.

Or the PPC auto loader division shooters who shoot largely 9mm in 1911s and S&Ws.

[Sevens]

There are no pistols or bullets up to serious target shooting

Surely you jest.

[Nick_C_S]

Beyond a chrony, is there something else I should look for to help determine underpressue?

I think you have the basics covered regarding underpressure. Probably goes without saying, but slide cycling is another indirect indicator - of course. Your 6.4g HS-6 is probably running at pretty normal pressures. And it's probably loaded up enough for HS-6 to run clean (HS-6 tends to run relatively clean in 9mm anyway). But if I had to guess - and I'm not there to personally verify - your recipe is probably at the lower end of normal 9mm operating pressure. Again for reference: my like-load is at 6.8g HS-6 (and because 9mm isn't my priority, mine is not a completed workup. Speer #14 shows 7.4g on the high end).

In terms of this particular subject - HS-6, low pressure, magnum primers, etc. - you may not need a chronograph today. But if you're any kind of a serious loader, there will come a time when you will find a chronograph essential.

The sooner you get a chronograph, the sooner you can start building some really good loadings, specific to your firearms. No time like the present.

Using your 6.4g HS-6 as an example: If it were me, the first thing I would do is build 10 rounds each of 6.4, 6.5, & 6.6 (these test rounds would each be hand-weighed and with like brass) and chronograph them. I'd check velocities (of course), but my attention would be on Standard Deviation. You're looking for a low SD. Now, what I would do from there would depend on a lot of variables. But it is possible my next trip out to the range - with chrony in tow - would be to test 10 rounds each of 6.6, 6.7, & 6.8. Notice, whenever I go back out for a second set of tests, I always "overlap" one with the same recipe as the last - in this case, the 6.6g. That way, I can verify that my test loads were made consistently from one batch to the next.

Okay, I could go on an on. Sorry. Point is, a chrony is essential to finding the exact loading that runs sweetest for your gun. The recipe that you can rely upon. The one that makes your range buddies with their factory ammo jealous.

[WESHOOT2]

Many USPSA Open Division shooters making 9 Major use HS6.