Reading this blog about what bullets the pros use is making me dizzy

Clark · April 21, 2014, 11:36 AM

If this is all objective data, it is important, but I don't want to be taken in by some biased cherry picking.

And I feel too ignorant to tell the difference.
What to believe?

Your opinion on my above question would be helpful.
Thanks.

What barrels
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/0...-rifle-barrel/
What calibers and cartridges
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/1...-the-pros-use/
What bullets, powder, and brass
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/0...-powder-brass/
What scopes
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/1...-the-pros-use/

Unlicensed Dremel · April 21, 2014, 12:59 PM

Fascinating; thanks.

No comment besides that and .... Don't forget about the logical error in forgetting that factor X may cause BOTH Y and Z; I.e. Factor X may be "extremely intense, motivated, competitor with time and money", and that may lead to both Factor Y ("better" but likely only infinitesimally-better bbl/powder/bullet/ cartridge choice), AND Factor Z - that same competitor engaging in more training/practice time, either of which (Y and Z) can affect the "average rank" numbers there on the chart; so it fails to isolate true correlation/causation possibly. Since the training time factor affects scores / rank much more than the gear choices.

Still, extremely interesting.

Really don't understand why the .243 shooters finished so poorly. I bet is has to do with the "same single factor causing several others" I described. I would bet that if you took the top 5 shooters and made them all use .243, they'd still all be near the top.

One other stat I'd like to see analyzed with specific detailed stats: barrel length. This is all that's said on that:

"Rich Emmons thought around 65% of the shooters in finale were using barrels between 24” and 26”. He thought 30% were running longer barrels at 28″, and only 5% of the shooters running shorter 22” barrels.

George Gardner said 26″ is the most common, and 28″ is the longest he’s seen at a match. He did say that shooters running suppressors were using 22-24” barrels, but there weren’t a lot of shooters among the top 50 using suppressors."

Good info on contour, though I s'pose I'd like to see the detailed breakdown on that, too. Thanks for posting; fascinating.

Well, you said "thoughts", so I guess a couple of final random thoughts....
Since we're talking the elite of the elite, I would bet that, regardless of category, ANY item chosen is going to be not just good, but a very good choice, regardless of relative popularity among the top 50 (with the possible exception of the 1 guy shooting .300 WM - kickin it old school!).

Also it should be noted that these are practical-tactical matches, where you're toting the rig for miles. The answer would be different/heavier both in actual gear and in chamberings/calibers for bench type shooting at similar ranges - i.e. like F Class.

Bart B. · April 21, 2014, 07:20 PM

Pro(fessional) shooters? Do they get paid by some outfit to shoot these matches?

Tried to find out what target sizes are for different events and ranges; nothing found. Help????

MtnCreek · April 22, 2014, 08:55 AM

It's PRS (Precision Rifle Series). I do not compete in PRS, but have shot something similar (lower profile

). Targets range in size. It's not about the smallest group or even shooting a group. Think run and gun with a precision rifle.

old roper · April 22, 2014, 09:54 PM

Lot of meaning for the word Pro. It sounds good I think pro guy would be making a living at it

http://forum.snipershide.com/blogs/b...ints-race.html

MtnCreek · April 23, 2014, 07:47 AM

Clark, Are you surprised by the bullets used? I looked over the links checking out the graphs (I like pictures

) and read the link on bullets, cases & powder. I guess it makes sense to see so many Berger Hybrids, if I assume they shoot as well as some say. That article (blog) seemed pretty strait forward to me. Assuming the statistics on bullets used is correct, the rest of the article didn't seem biased IMO. I was mainly focused on the 6.5's; it did look like a lot of the vld and amax shooters of last year moved to the hybrids. I'm sure you've seen a lot of talk about the bergers on a site where PRS is a big topic. I'm sure that sways a lot of people to move to them, but would it have an impact on the top PRS shooters? I don't know.

I've not shot Bergers. Price and the suggestion from Berger to seat the vld's to the rifling were two things that made me shy away. With Hornnady and Sierra bullets I've had issues loading to the rifling. I think it's a combination of variance in ojive and my loading equipment / skills. I can seat them long enough (with low tension) to wash these variances, but at the cost of some potential unloading issues. The hybrids don't fix the Berger problem for me; they're still a lot higher $$ than a Hornady.

I mostly shoot Hornady bullets, but I'm biased because of price and my ability to find in bulk (also a price issue). For me and my capabilities, they shoot great. In .223 I've been able to get a better load w/ 77smk's than I can w/ 75 hpbt's, but I haven't had the chance to work w/ the Horn hpbt's as much as I'd like. Their amax bullets are great. In 300wm the 208 amax was a big step up for me over the 190smk's I was using.

csmsss · April 23, 2014, 11:21 AM

I'm a little confused by this PRS series deal. It claims to be a tactical and/or sniper-style competition, yet none of the competitors is using a rifle chambered in a cartridge that a sniper would use.

Clark · April 23, 2014, 11:51 AM

Quote:

MtnCreek

Clark, Are you surprised by the bullets used?

I am confused about the data collection. How was it taken? Who are these professional shooter?

If the data was a poll on a forum for an organized competition with a dozen competitors that shoot upside down and under water, then I can ignore it.

If the data was collected with a questionnaire of significant sampling and participation and the professionals are America's best shots, then I have some concern that I do not yet own a Bartlein barrel nor Schmidt and Bender scope. I have a few 6mm and 6.5mm reamers and Berger bullets.

A big hint for me is Bart asking "Who are these guys?".
If he can tell me first hand about David Tubb's wind doping ability, but never heard of PRS, then I think I know which way this is going.

MtnCreek · April 23, 2014, 12:03 PM

What cartridges would a sniper use? .308 win, 7.62R and other common military cartridges? The competitor using a 300wm was using a current issue mil cartridge and I have no idea if some of the other cartridges are used by our or other armed forces; maybe, maybe not.

In my humble opinion, I don't think the .308 win is the most common cartridge used by US mil snipers because of it's superior suitability to the task. .308 is allowed, but you'll notice none of the guys shooting a .308win made it to the top.

If you want to take the time, check out some video from some of their competitions (maybe Bushnell Brawl). The scenarios aren't overwatch situations where the guy lays in wait, rifle on bi-pod. They're moving and shooting in odd positions. Speed is a factor.

MtnCreek · April 23, 2014, 12:26 PM

Clark,

You know who they are, but not because they're the cream of the crop of precision shooters. I didn't see how the data was collected, whether it was a questionnaire, verbally asking those guys or grabbing some ammo from their bag and disassembling and lab testing the contents.

Two things I won't do:
1. Say their preferred equipment is the best suited for accuracy.
2. Try to tell you about / explain to you about firearms or re-loading. I'm far outclassed and know it.

If you were to shoot in a similar competition, the equipment they listed would be useful info to mull over. Barrel manufacturer would be interesting, but I'd probably be more interested in barrel length and contour.

IMHO, PRS is not a judge of accuracy, but looks more like a judge of who knows their equipment better. They stress the competitors with time constrains and goofy shooting positions.

Jimro · April 23, 2014, 01:24 PM

Clark,

The game being used is sort of a variation on the old "outlaw sniper" matches where you have unknown distance shooting and no required positions to make the shot, although shooting platforms will sometimes require something other than the prone. A pistol may also be required for a match, and your time counts the way it would in action pistol matches.

Since a match can required up to 200 rounds, you don't see folks picking hard recoiling options. Even 150 rounds of 308 Win will remind you the next day you shot it, so the you see competitors using high velocity 6 and 6.5mm cartridges to get "flatter" trajectories to help compensate for ranging error on targets.

You see a lot of H4350 because it is pretty much the most temp stable powder on the market today, although the 4 fps difference noted in the article was advertised by Hodgdon as coming from a 308 Win pushing a 190 SMK, so I don't know how temp stable it really is in 243 Wins and 6.5x284s. You see Varget in there as the #2 choice because H4350 is too slow for some chamberings to get the needed velocity for long range shooting.

Berger Hybrids are preferred because they combine the high BC of secant VLD's with the ease of loading of tangent ogive match bullets. In essence the Hybrids are VLD's that tolerate jump into the lands, so competitors can load up a lot of bullets, and not screw with seating depth "chasing the lands" every 600 to 1000 rounds as the throat wears. If you had to adjust your seating depth every three matches it would wear on you, although I know folks who do exactly that.

Anyways, in comparing this to something like High Power, you'll see competitors there make different choices, as what is optimal for one game isn't optimal for another.

csmss, no one really wants a true "sniper" competition that takes place over 18 hours, 12 hours to get into position, 4 hours observing the target waiting for authorization to shoot to come randomly in the last two hours of competition....

Jimro

April 21, 2014, 11:36 AM	#1
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	Reading this blog about what bullets the pros use is making me dizzy If this is all objective data, it is important, but I don't want to be taken in by some biased cherry picking. And I feel too ignorant to tell the difference. What to believe? Your opinion on my above question would be helpful. Thanks. What barrels http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/0...-rifle-barrel/ What calibers and cartridges http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/1...-the-pros-use/ What bullets, powder, and brass http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/0...-powder-brass/ What scopes http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/1...-the-pros-use/ __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

April 22, 2014, 09:54 PM	#5
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	Lot of meaning for the word Pro. It sounds good I think pro guy would be making a living at it http://forum.snipershide.com/blogs/b...ints-race.html __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

April 23, 2014, 01:24 PM	#11
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Clark, The game being used is sort of a variation on the old "outlaw sniper" matches where you have unknown distance shooting and no required positions to make the shot, although shooting platforms will sometimes require something other than the prone. A pistol may also be required for a match, and your time counts the way it would in action pistol matches. Since a match can required up to 200 rounds, you don't see folks picking hard recoiling options. Even 150 rounds of 308 Win will remind you the next day you shot it, so the you see competitors using high velocity 6 and 6.5mm cartridges to get "flatter" trajectories to help compensate for ranging error on targets. You see a lot of H4350 because it is pretty much the most temp stable powder on the market today, although the 4 fps difference noted in the article was advertised by Hodgdon as coming from a 308 Win pushing a 190 SMK, so I don't know how temp stable it really is in 243 Wins and 6.5x284s. You see Varget in there as the #2 choice because H4350 is too slow for some chamberings to get the needed velocity for long range shooting. Berger Hybrids are preferred because they combine the high BC of secant VLD's with the ease of loading of tangent ogive match bullets. In essence the Hybrids are VLD's that tolerate jump into the lands, so competitors can load up a lot of bullets, and not screw with seating depth "chasing the lands" every 600 to 1000 rounds as the throat wears. If you had to adjust your seating depth every three matches it would wear on you, although I know folks who do exactly that. Anyways, in comparing this to something like High Power, you'll see competitors there make different choices, as what is optimal for one game isn't optimal for another. csmss, no one really wants a true "sniper" competition that takes place over 18 hours, 12 hours to get into position, 4 hours observing the target waiting for authorization to shoot to come randomly in the last two hours of competition.... Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

April 21, 2014, 12:59 PM	#2
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	Fascinating; thanks. No comment besides that and .... Don't forget about the logical error in forgetting that factor X may cause BOTH Y and Z; I.e. Factor X may be "extremely intense, motivated, competitor with time and money", and that may lead to both Factor Y ("better" but likely only infinitesimally-better bbl/powder/bullet/ cartridge choice), AND Factor Z - that same competitor engaging in more training/practice time, either of which (Y and Z) can affect the "average rank" numbers there on the chart; so it fails to isolate true correlation/causation possibly. Since the training time factor affects scores / rank much more than the gear choices. Still, extremely interesting. Really don't understand why the .243 shooters finished so poorly. I bet is has to do with the "same single factor causing several others" I described. I would bet that if you took the top 5 shooters and made them all use .243, they'd still all be near the top. One other stat I'd like to see analyzed with specific detailed stats: barrel length. This is all that's said on that: "Rich Emmons thought around 65% of the shooters in finale were using barrels between 24” and 26”. He thought 30% were running longer barrels at 28″, and only 5% of the shooters running shorter 22” barrels. George Gardner said 26″ is the most common, and 28″ is the longest he’s seen at a match. He did say that shooters running suppressors were using 22-24” barrels, but there weren’t a lot of shooters among the top 50 using suppressors." Good info on contour, though I s'pose I'd like to see the detailed breakdown on that, too. Thanks for posting; fascinating. Well, you said "thoughts", so I guess a couple of final random thoughts.... Since we're talking the elite of the elite, I would bet that, regardless of category, ANY item chosen is going to be not just good, but a very good choice, regardless of relative popularity among the top 50 (with the possible exception of the 1 guy shooting .300 WM - kickin it old school!). Also it should be noted that these are practical-tactical matches, where you're toting the rig for miles. The answer would be different/heavier both in actual gear and in chamberings/calibers for bench type shooting at similar ranges - i.e. like F Class. Last edited by Unlicensed Dremel; April 21, 2014 at 03:50 PM.

April 21, 2014, 07:20 PM	#3
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Pro(fessional) shooters? Do they get paid by some outfit to shoot these matches? Tried to find out what target sizes are for different events and ranges; nothing found. Help????

April 22, 2014, 08:55 AM	#4
MtnCreek Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2010 Posts: 176	It's PRS (Precision Rifle Series). I do not compete in PRS, but have shot something similar (lower profile ). Targets range in size. It's not about the smallest group or even shooting a group. Think run and gun with a precision rifle.

April 23, 2014, 07:47 AM	#6
MtnCreek Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2010 Posts: 176	Clark, Are you surprised by the bullets used? I looked over the links checking out the graphs (I like pictures ) and read the link on bullets, cases & powder. I guess it makes sense to see so many Berger Hybrids, if I assume they shoot as well as some say. That article (blog) seemed pretty strait forward to me. Assuming the statistics on bullets used is correct, the rest of the article didn't seem biased IMO. I was mainly focused on the 6.5's; it did look like a lot of the vld and amax shooters of last year moved to the hybrids. I'm sure you've seen a lot of talk about the bergers on a site where PRS is a big topic. I'm sure that sways a lot of people to move to them, but would it have an impact on the top PRS shooters? I don't know. I've not shot Bergers. Price and the suggestion from Berger to seat the vld's to the rifling were two things that made me shy away. With Hornnady and Sierra bullets I've had issues loading to the rifling. I think it's a combination of variance in ojive and my loading equipment / skills. I can seat them long enough (with low tension) to wash these variances, but at the cost of some potential unloading issues. The hybrids don't fix the Berger problem for me; they're still a lot higher $$ than a Hornady. I mostly shoot Hornady bullets, but I'm biased because of price and my ability to find in bulk (also a price issue). For me and my capabilities, they shoot great. In .223 I've been able to get a better load w/ 77smk's than I can w/ 75 hpbt's, but I haven't had the chance to work w/ the Horn hpbt's as much as I'd like. Their amax bullets are great. In 300wm the 208 amax was a big step up for me over the 190smk's I was using.

April 23, 2014, 11:21 AM	#7
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	I'm a little confused by this PRS series deal. It claims to be a tactical and/or sniper-style competition, yet none of the competitors is using a rifle chambered in a cartridge that a sniper would use.

April 23, 2014, 12:03 PM	#9
MtnCreek Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2010 Posts: 176	What cartridges would a sniper use? .308 win, 7.62R and other common military cartridges? The competitor using a 300wm was using a current issue mil cartridge and I have no idea if some of the other cartridges are used by our or other armed forces; maybe, maybe not. In my humble opinion, I don't think the .308 win is the most common cartridge used by US mil snipers because of it's superior suitability to the task. .308 is allowed, but you'll notice none of the guys shooting a .308win made it to the top. If you want to take the time, check out some video from some of their competitions (maybe Bushnell Brawl). The scenarios aren't overwatch situations where the guy lays in wait, rifle on bi-pod. They're moving and shooting in odd positions. Speed is a factor.

April 23, 2014, 12:26 PM	#10
MtnCreek Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2010 Posts: 176	Clark, You know who they are, but not because they're the cream of the crop of precision shooters. I didn't see how the data was collected, whether it was a questionnaire, verbally asking those guys or grabbing some ammo from their bag and disassembling and lab testing the contents. Two things I won't do: 1. Say their preferred equipment is the best suited for accuracy. 2. Try to tell you about / explain to you about firearms or re-loading. I'm far outclassed and know it. If you were to shoot in a similar competition, the equipment they listed would be useful info to mull over. Barrel manufacturer would be interesting, but I'd probably be more interested in barrel length and contour. IMHO, PRS is not a judge of accuracy, but looks more like a judge of who knows their equipment better. They stress the competitors with time constrains and goofy shooting positions.