Tampa Bay Times cross-reference of Stand Your Ground cases to date in Florida

MLeake · July 15, 2013, 01:13 PM

I haven't had time to search through this yet, but it looks potentially interesting; it's the only comprehensive database I've found, so far, with regard to Stand Your Ground cases.

http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-g...aw/fatal-cases

On surface skimming of it, I noted that of the 133 cases for which the paper had charge and trial data, there were 39 convictions.

I'll need to verify, but it seems to me that would suggest that when Stand Your Ground has been improperly claimed, the Justice system has worked properly. In other words, Stand Your Ground isn't a Get out of Jail Free card, if the case is not a good one.

This makes me wonder, yet again, why SYG has so many strident opponents.

speedrrracer · July 15, 2013, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MLeake

of the 133 cases for which the paper had charge and trial data, there were 39 convictions.

FYI, your link claims 40 convictions, 73 justified...maybe one conviction just happened...

How will you assess "improperly claimed"?

**Tom Servo** · July 15, 2013, 02:15 PM

Quote:

I'll need to verify, but it seems to me that would suggest that when Stand Your Ground has been improperly claimed, the Justice system has worked properly.

In the absence of an abstract or actual paper, it's hard to break down. An interactive website is good for looking into individual incidents, but it's terrible for getting an aggregate of data.

GJSchulze · July 15, 2013, 05:52 PM

SYG has so many opponents because they have no idea what it really means. They think it's a license to kill. It's true value is to remove the burden of proof that you could have retreated if you had the opportunity. Said opportunity looking far different to someone the next morning who wasn't there.

The Trial had nothing to do with SYG and yet people are still arguing over SYG. If you can retreat safely, you should; who needs all the grief of shooting someone? Of course if someone is on top of you it's kind of hard to retreat.

KyJim · July 15, 2013, 05:56 PM

Quote:

This makes me wonder, yet again, why SYG has so many strident opponents.

I have wondered that, as well. The general rule in most of the U.S. for much its history has been SYG. In 1895, the first Justice Harlan Stone summed it up in a SCOTUS opinion:

Quote:

[I]f the accused did not provoke the assault, and had at the time reasonable grounds to believe, and in good faith believed, that the deceased intended to take his life, or do him great bodily harm, he was not obliged to retreat, nor to consider whether he could safely retreat, but was entitled to stand his ground, and meet any attack made upon him with a deadly weapon, in such way and with such force as, under all the circumstances, he, at the moment, honestly believed, and had reasonable grounds to believe, were necessary to save his own life, or to protect himself from great bodily injury.

Beard v. United States, 158 U.S. 550, 564, 15 S. Ct. 962, 967, 39 L. Ed. 1086 (1895). Somewhere over the years, part of the Country lost sight of this.

GJSchulze · July 15, 2013, 06:20 PM

Again, they do not understand what it really means, nor do they really have a feeling for how quickly you have to decide what to do. People not in the situation think you have all day to debate the pros and cons of what you should do to plan and then execute your safe retreat. In reality you have a split second while your pulse is racing, adrenaline is surging, and your scared out of your wits.

Those people will freeze and die when the time comes.

LewSchiller · July 15, 2013, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Those people will freeze and die when the time comes.

But on the upside they won't face State charges, FBI, DOJ, civil lawsuit, Militant Thugs....et al.

**Tom Servo** · July 15, 2013, 07:51 PM

Jim, thanks for the citation.

Tactical issues are best left to the appropriate subforum, and we're not doing a rehash of the Zimmerman matter. Full stop.

KyJim · July 15, 2013, 08:15 PM

You're welcome.

motorhead0922 · July 15, 2013, 08:52 PM

There's a huge problem with the Tampa Bay Times information. It lists the Zimmerman/Martin case as SYG, which it was not. Knowing that case is incorrectly listed, it makes all the rest of the info suspect.

speedrrracer · July 15, 2013, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motorhead

There's a huge problem with the Tampa Bay Times information. It lists the Zimmerman/Martin case as SYG, which it was not. Knowing that case is incorrectly listed, it makes all the rest of the info suspect.

Great observation, motorhead, thanks for the heads-up.

Salmoneye · July 16, 2013, 10:33 AM

All I read was the first case...

It was about two guys shooting at each other over an alleged drug deal, and sadly a little girl got caught in the crossfire...

How exactly does this have anything to do with 'Stand Your Ground'?

csmsss · July 16, 2013, 10:37 AM

Quote:

All I read was the first case...

It was about two guys shooting at each other over an alleged drug deal, and sadly a little girl got caught in the crossfire...

How exactly does this have anything to do with 'Stand Your Ground'?

I think that is an example of where "stand your ground" was asserted by the defense, even though the actions of the defendant clearly show it to be ludicrously misapplied.

**Tom Servo** · July 16, 2013, 12:40 PM

I think you're right, csmsss. These appear to be SYG pleas, not judgments.

carguychris · July 16, 2013, 12:57 PM

^^^ +2 Tom and csmss.

I read several of the cases yesterday, and IIRC there are several in which Persons A & B fought or threatened one another, Person A left the scene and returned with a weapon, and subsequently used it against Person B. In each case, Person A was found guilty or plead- IMHO rightly so, as a SYG defense is clearly inappropriate in these cases, regardless of who initiated the first confrontation (e.g. Joel Kun-Steve Clair incident, upper middle RH side of page).

Patriot86 · July 16, 2013, 01:14 PM

A lot of stabbings are included in that data as well. Also many of these cases involve defense in the home...very misleading until you actually read a lot of the cases.

Punisher_1 · July 16, 2013, 05:16 PM

If it's posted in the TBT it is not for the benefit of gun owners. They are an anti supporter.

Patriot86 · July 17, 2013, 07:21 AM

http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/16/bl...rtionate-rate/

Not exactly a "fair and balanced" source but it seems to be backed up by the Tampa Bay Times database.

motorhead0922 · July 17, 2013, 09:08 AM

Thanks for the link, Patriot. Interesting article.

Don P · July 17, 2013, 10:33 AM

Just on the news, how the DOJ and possible proceedings may effect our stand your ground law here in FLA. Interesting being SD was used and NOT stand your ground

July 15, 2013, 01:13 PM	#1
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Tampa Bay Times cross-reference of Stand Your Ground cases to date in Florida I haven't had time to search through this yet, but it looks potentially interesting; it's the only comprehensive database I've found, so far, with regard to Stand Your Ground cases. http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-g...aw/fatal-cases On surface skimming of it, I noted that of the 133 cases for which the paper had charge and trial data, there were 39 convictions. I'll need to verify, but it seems to me that would suggest that when Stand Your Ground has been improperly claimed, the Justice system has worked properly. In other words, Stand Your Ground isn't a Get out of Jail Free card, if the case is not a good one. This makes me wonder, yet again, why SYG has so many strident opponents.

July 15, 2013, 07:51 PM	#8
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	Jim, thanks for the citation. Tactical issues are best left to the appropriate subforum, and we're not doing a rehash of the Zimmerman matter. Full stop. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

July 15, 2013, 08:52 PM	#10
motorhead0922 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 635	There's a huge problem with the Tampa Bay Times information. It lists the Zimmerman/Martin case as SYG, which it was not. Knowing that case is incorrectly listed, it makes all the rest of the info suspect. __________________ SAF, ACLDN, IDPA, handgunlaw.us My AmazonSmile benefits SAF I'd rather be carried by 6 than caged by 12. 2020: It's pronounced twenty twenty.

July 16, 2013, 12:40 PM	#14
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	I think you're right, csmsss. These appear to be SYG pleas, not judgments. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

July 16, 2013, 12:57 PM	#15
carguychris Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2007 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 7,523	^^^ +2 Tom and csmss. I read several of the cases yesterday, and IIRC there are several in which Persons A & B fought or threatened one another, Person A left the scene and returned with a weapon, and subsequently used it against Person B. In each case, Person A was found guilty or plead- IMHO rightly so, as a SYG defense is clearly inappropriate in these cases, regardless of who initiated the first confrontation (e.g. Joel Kun-Steve Clair incident, upper middle RH side of page). __________________ "Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak

July 15, 2013, 05:52 PM	#4
GJSchulze Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2013 Location: Western New York Posts: 454	SYG has so many opponents because they have no idea what it really means. They think it's a license to kill. It's true value is to remove the burden of proof that you could have retreated if you had the opportunity. Said opportunity looking far different to someone the next morning who wasn't there. The Trial had nothing to do with SYG and yet people are still arguing over SYG. If you can retreat safely, you should; who needs all the grief of shooting someone? Of course if someone is on top of you it's kind of hard to retreat.

July 15, 2013, 06:20 PM	#6
GJSchulze Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2013 Location: Western New York Posts: 454	Again, they do not understand what it really means, nor do they really have a feeling for how quickly you have to decide what to do. People not in the situation think you have all day to debate the pros and cons of what you should do to plan and then execute your safe retreat. In reality you have a split second while your pulse is racing, adrenaline is surging, and your scared out of your wits. Those people will freeze and die when the time comes.

July 15, 2013, 08:15 PM	#9
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	You're welcome.

July 16, 2013, 10:33 AM	#12
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	All I read was the first case... It was about two guys shooting at each other over an alleged drug deal, and sadly a little girl got caught in the crossfire... How exactly does this have anything to do with 'Stand Your Ground'?

July 16, 2013, 01:14 PM	#16
Patriot86 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2010 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 1,293	A lot of stabbings are included in that data as well. Also many of these cases involve defense in the home...very misleading until you actually read a lot of the cases. __________________ "....The swords of others will set you your limits".

July 16, 2013, 05:16 PM	#17
Punisher_1 Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 136	If it's posted in the TBT it is not for the benefit of gun owners. They are an anti supporter.

July 17, 2013, 07:21 AM	#18
Patriot86 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2010 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 1,293	http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/16/bl...rtionate-rate/ Not exactly a "fair and balanced" source but it seems to be backed up by the Tampa Bay Times database. __________________ "....The swords of others will set you your limits".

July 17, 2013, 09:08 AM	#19
motorhead0922 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 635	Thanks for the link, Patriot. Interesting article. __________________ SAF, ACLDN, IDPA, handgunlaw.us My AmazonSmile benefits SAF I'd rather be carried by 6 than caged by 12. 2020: It's pronounced twenty twenty.

July 17, 2013, 10:33 AM	#20
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Just on the news, how the DOJ and possible proceedings may effect our stand your ground law here in FLA. Interesting being SD was used and NOT stand your ground __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

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