June 15, 2009, 07:38 PM | #1 |
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Iranian gun rights
Tried to research it a bit and couldn't really find anything, but what is the gun ownership situation in Iran? It's easy to say the public can't have guns but you see in so many of these Middle East countries people with guns in militias and the like. I sort of infer that there is gun ownership rights for the ruling class but don't know. It's a good case study. The government appears to run rough shod over everyone including the foreign press booting them out of the country. The Iranian government can now impose its will in the worst way against the people. This couldn't happen in an armed society.
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June 16, 2009, 07:33 AM | #2 |
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It would make little difference if the people in Iran were armed. They would be little more than a nuisance to the Iranian military.
In fact it might give the Iranian government cover to just start killing people en masse. "Well we had to put down the armed resistance" It really boils down to the number of people that turn out to protest not the number of guns they have. |
June 16, 2009, 02:06 PM | #3 | |
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Iran has traditionally had a well-established civil society and a strong central government. On the other hand, most areas throughout the Arabian peninsula, the Tigris and Euphrates valleys, and the Hindu Kush have historically been ruled by loose-knit networks of feudal warlords and tribal leaders who may have paid tribute to a distant monarch but who really didn't answer to anyone on a practical day-to-day basis. The modern-day Islamic militias are an extension of this culture and only exist because the central governments in some of these countries have historically been weak and impotent. The Persians nee Iranians have historically viewed these people and this system as a dire threat. They may support militias in other countries for political reasons, but they would never allow them to exist within Iran.
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June 16, 2009, 02:15 PM | #4 |
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Interesting question as it speaks to the idea that the armed populace is a bulwark against tyranny. Or is it that if the level of discontent rises to such a level and infiltrates the government's instruments of force (military and police) such that they won't take action against the public?
There are examples of that. In the first Iranian revolution - the armed forces didn't back the Shah. In the overthrow of the Soviet Union - the same happened. It is not uncommon when using armed force against political demonstrators to get units not associated with the protestors - from another region or social class. In Ohio, at the time of Kent State - some of the National Guard units made up of college kids told their officers that if they were told to fire on other college kids, it might not go well for the officers. Remember a fair number of them were in the Guard to beat the draft.
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June 16, 2009, 03:24 PM | #5 | |
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A five mile stretch of protesters reported today. |
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June 16, 2009, 04:17 PM | #6 |
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Rights under a dictatorship? Sounds like an oxymoron or a contradiction in terms. I suspect the politically reliable-the police, Komiteh, Revolutionary Guards, etc., all have access to firearms but not the masses.
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June 16, 2009, 05:33 PM | #7 | ||
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Although the Supreme Leader can overrule or even remove the President and the Guardian Council (which is appointed by the Supreme Leader) can overrule the legislature, the President and the legislature seem to have more independence than this system would initially suggest. In fact, the Supreme Leader and Guardian Council have indicated that they are going to intervene in the dispute about the election, and have hinted that President Ahmadinejad may have overstepped his authority.
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June 16, 2009, 07:46 PM | #8 |
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I heard an Iranian in Denver interviewed on the radio who had twice today talked with his family in Iran.
When asked why there was not more resistance, he replied private ownership of any firearms in strictly prohibited in Iran. Only security guards, police and military can have them. He went on to say this happened many years ago....and to be sure and not let it happen in the USA ! He said the Iranian Military was on the peoples side and had agreed to remain neutral. The Other Army is under the control of the Iatollas...who need to go. |
June 16, 2009, 07:54 PM | #9 |
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Quote: It would make little difference if the people in Iran were armed. They would be little more than a nuisance to the Iranian military.
In fact it might give the Iranian government cover to just start killing people en masse. "Well we had to put down the armed resistance" It really boils down to the number of people that turn out to protest not the number of guns they have. I don't know about that. Surely the Iranian military is made up of at least some folks with the same mores and values as the populace. I would bet it is one heck of a lot harder to be sent to "deal with" folks who you may deep down agree with especially if there is a chance you could die for a cause you aren't all the way on board with. After they initially shoot up a crowd, going house to house to route out trouble makers is much tougher if they are armed. I've heard this argument before that the military will just run rough shod over an armed populace. People automatically assume that the military members will stay in lock step with their command. Taking on an unarmed people makes it much easier to stay in lock step. |
June 16, 2009, 11:32 PM | #10 | |
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Western culture is radically different from that of the Persians. Or most any other middle eastern culture, if you really want to make comparisons. The entire western concept of "rights" and "individuality" is foreign to their thinking. See here for a list rights contained in Chapter III of the Iranian Constitution. Read it closely, to see what I mean. |
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June 17, 2009, 05:43 AM | #11 | |
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Hopefully the citizens will come to realize that now is their moment, and that they may never have another chance in this generation or the next to stand together with a dozen other freedom-loving people to yank a baton-wielding jackbooted totalitarian thug off of his motorcycle and snap his f---ing neck.
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June 17, 2009, 04:58 PM | #12 | |
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The Times is usually horrified at the idea of the 2nd, so I find this statement so sweet. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/17/op...ml?ref=opinion
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June 17, 2009, 09:47 PM | #13 |
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I don't read the Times much but Friedman seems a little more main stream than Rich, Dowd and Krugman. Even so it is strange to see a columnist from the NYT follow that line of thinking. That's a funny line "bang bang beats tweet tweet".
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June 17, 2009, 09:51 PM | #14 | |
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It's going to be really interesting to see how this shakes out.
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June 17, 2009, 10:17 PM | #15 |
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An armed populace uprising and a military coup are different and independant things.
An armed populace is not necessary for the military to revolt. |
June 21, 2009, 11:24 PM | #16 | |
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The question asked was:
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For Iran, the number is 0.053 firearms per citizen, about the same as the UK. Israel is only 0.081, Switzerland and Finland approximately 0.5 while the US tops the list of 59 nations at 0.90 firearms per citizen. Download the paper at the link below if you are interested in more data from this very useful journal article. * Is There a Relationship between Guns and Freedom? Comparative Results from 59 Nations, David B. Kopel, Carlisle E. Moody, and Howard Nemerov; December 23, 2008, Texas Review of Law and Politics, Vol. 13. Abstract: There are 59 nations for which data about per capita gun ownership are available. This Article examines the relationship between gun density and several measures of freedom and prosperity... http://ssrn.com/abstract=1090441 Last edited by nemo2econ; June 21, 2009 at 11:34 PM. |
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June 22, 2009, 11:02 AM | #17 |
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Arms Caches In Iran
In a weak moment, I suppose, an Iranian-Canadian friend of mine disclosed that (some? most? all? He didn't elaborate.) mosques have arms caches buried on the property just waiting for the right moment.
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June 22, 2009, 11:21 AM | #18 | |
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Some believe that an armed unorganized untrained populace can defeat a well-trained army but I don't think history shows that. The one thing that I haven't read a lot about is whether there is truly a majority who is dissatisfied or is it just the middle class? Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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June 22, 2009, 11:47 AM | #19 | |
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As for private gun ownership in the Middle East, in most countries in requires allot of money or knowing the right people. These are countries with governments who control the entire country. There are allot of places (Yemen) that have strict gun laws but open air gun markets. In Egypt, it is very hard to get a permit for a pistol but in the desert, among the Sinai Bedouin, is a heavily armed population. The government knows but really cant do anything about it. As for the Iranian situation, I believe the arms would do nothing to further their cause at this point. Like another poster said, it would just give the government the excuse they are looking for. Their is an armed Militia operational within Iran, actually two. There is the MEK or Peoples Mujahidin and another Kurdish group. Neither of which have any interest in supporting Hossein Mousavi, who answers to the same guy as Ahmadinjad. Other than those too, its pretty much the army and the revolutionary guard. Last edited by Shadi Khalil; June 22, 2009 at 04:20 PM. Reason: spelling |
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June 22, 2009, 01:08 PM | #20 | |
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Hamas involvement is unlikely and largely rumor. There appears to be some Lebanese Hizbullah involvement though.
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June 22, 2009, 01:37 PM | #21 |
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Just a warning - don't try to avoid the language filter. No %_#)# stuff.
Also, I've been reading the 'experts' and my conclusion (which some experts have) is we have no idea how this will play out. Esp. the American based experts and politicians who are trying to score points with their brillant analyses on various cable shows. I'm sure before the French Revolution - no one would have predicted the King and Queen would end up without their heads and a few years latter France would try to conquer Europe.
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June 22, 2009, 01:48 PM | #22 | |
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I think that this uprising will fizzle out or just be repressed. Any military action from outside countries will wash away any "progress". I think its best third party countries not meddle to much and let this play out. As for rights, I'm sure once this is over, the Iranians will lose allot of them. |
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June 22, 2009, 02:09 PM | #23 |
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I think it is interesting how our media is hyping it as an oncoming massive revolution. Both the left and right wing cable types see it this way, but I think the fizzle is probably the best bet. But what do I know.
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June 22, 2009, 02:17 PM | #24 | |
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But those are the same people who said Iraq had the bomb so what do they know. |
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June 22, 2009, 03:35 PM | #25 |
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Well, I'm currently listening to Daniel Silva's Israeli Secret agent books on CD when I drive, so I am probably a spy master of international scope.
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