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February 19, 2011, 10:23 AM | #26 |
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In Jim Cirillio's (sp?) books he said the pelvis shot (groin in this thread) would "always" knock down the target. - He also said the targets were still a danger, but it gave you the chance to move in and disarm.
YMMV - But his books should be required reading for membership on this forum.
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February 19, 2011, 10:25 AM | #27 |
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I agree that a civilian is highly unlikely to encounter a BG with body armor. But if you do, walking your shots down to a hit in the lower abdomen has a lot better chance of scoring a hit than walking your shots up to the head. In other words, it may be a better tactic to get a fast hit in the lower abdomen or pelvis than to have to try several times to get a hit on the head, even though the head may be more quickly debilitating.
It is not entirely true to say that the lower abdomen has only the aorta as a vital structure. The mesenteric arteries to the large and small bowel are pretty substantial in size, and the arteries that run along the intestine are not puny, either. Instantly debilitating like a shot to the brain stem, no, but in the same way that a shot to the chest that misses the heart and aorta still causes some pretty significant damage and bleeding in the lungs, a shot to the lower abdomen that misses the aorta will also cause some significant bleeding in the abdomen and/or pelvis, along with a great deal of pain from sensitive peritoneal surfaces. Overall, a hit there is better than a miss to the head, and it may well give you the time you need for an escape. Optimal? No, but neither should it be entirely dismissed, I would think. A reasonable option to keep in mind. |
February 19, 2011, 10:47 AM | #28 | ||
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Quote:
This tactic is best left to the people who would more likely encounter an armored assailant (LEO, Military). And they will be the first to tell you that if the person is NOT wearing armor, then the much better option would be to shoot them in the chest. It just is. Quote:
~LT
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February 19, 2011, 10:56 AM | #29 |
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The problem we have here is all the comments coming from people who have never been in combat/shoot-out with someone trying to kill you.
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February 19, 2011, 11:08 AM | #30 |
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There are lots of complete misses in gun fights. A missed groin shot is less likely to hit a bystander than a missed head shot.
That said, I still think the headshot is the best way to end a gun fight. |
February 19, 2011, 11:58 AM | #31 |
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My Preference:
Two to the Chest, One right between the eyes................
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February 19, 2011, 12:42 PM | #32 | ||
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It's a law enforcement/military technique of weapons deployment designed to impair/immobilize an attacker/enemy.....shoot 'em in the balls outside the wire and listen to the goblins scream, ja? But most of us here are armed citizens. As a consequence thereof, it is, IMHO, your moral duty to never pop that round off until you have cowered begged pleaded run hide and do everything in your power to avoid pulling that trigger. Hell, I bet ya in a good percentage of cases, you shouldnt even be in a position where you need to employ that gun. Why are you in gangbanger town at 4am? Why did you run outside to confront the guy peeing on your lawn? What are you gonna do, shoot the pizza guy in the hip? And when you do shoot, you had better have no other choice. The last and final resort. And that means you don't play Gecko45, you empty your piece into either COM or face, hopefully from a few yards away. The next to last thing you want to do is shoot somebody. Physiology?....The last thing you want to do is shoot somebody in a painful area and watch him writhe and scream on the ground as sirens scream in the background. Ya think he is gonna "bleed out" (what a manly term).....Gee maybe we will see someone advocating finishing him off...Naw, whats gonna happen is you will break that hip, leave the 20 year old crippled and.... Get your civil defense lawyer ready. Los muertes no hablas no longer applies. And maybe your perp was Jean Valjean Honestly, if folks would stop the measuring contests of calibers and extra mags and hollowpoints and started concentrating on reading about the moral and ethical ramifications of taking life together with reading your own state laws on self defense you would be far better prepared for that once in a lifetime incident. Shoot 'em in the hip indeed. Quote:
Join the Army then. Plenty of true evil ones to shoot at WildimsotiredoftestosteroneAlaska ™©2002-2011 |
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February 19, 2011, 07:28 PM | #33 |
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"The pelvic shot is a tactic that was developed and trained by law enforcement."
LordTio3, I have over 30 years in law enforcement and was never taught this. Including my SWAT Training!!!!!! The head shot is only taught, with a handgun, at 7 yards and less. With practice it's not that hard! "At this point, he will then become a stationary target" bravo, he also becomes a stationary threat, not out of action. And I was never taught this in my SWAT Training! LordTio3 "Nothing ALWAYS happens in a gunfight. Nothing. And you should be increasingly suspicious of anyone (and I don't care who it is) who speaks to you about Best, Worst, Always, or Never when it comes to weapons or tactics. There is no supremacy. There is only better, or worse; no best or worst. " I was referring to my personal department training, in reality there is static with some clarity. Overall I agree with statement1 IMOHO.
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February 19, 2011, 08:16 PM | #34 |
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I think one benefit that hasn't been discussed about the groin shot is the potential of limiting said bg from ever reproducing again even if he does live.
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February 19, 2011, 08:29 PM | #35 | |
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Doesn't mean there aren't situations where one of the aforementioned tactics wouldn't be the thing to do. OK, Bubba could be wearing a vest. If that situation arises, put the third bullet where you can dictated by the circumstances, but one target may be more available than the other. If you really believe you can plan that in advance----best of luck. Last edited by Nnobby45; February 19, 2011 at 08:35 PM. |
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February 19, 2011, 08:55 PM | #36 | |
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I once went shooting with my BIL, who at the time was a cop, and he told me he was then being trained to shoot twice center mass, and one to the groin. This was about 15 or so years ago. So it was definitely being taught by some police agencies.
Quote:
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February 19, 2011, 10:35 PM | #37 | |
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Or you have a lawyer on retainer Your CPL isnt for pride. Its to defend your life. WildithinkiseeadumbscenariocomingAlaska ™©2002-2011 |
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February 19, 2011, 11:13 PM | #38 |
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In the Marine Corps we always practiced 2 to the chest 1 to the head. For the same reason previous post have listed. A CNS shot means an immediate stop. And after all, that's what we all want is an immediate stop. However I think there's good argument for 1 to the groin or I would say a low center mass shot instead. To be honest I've never thought about 1 low center mass. My argument would be to go to low center mass for the same reason football players are tought to go for the midsection when they tackle. I've been lucky enough to have never been in combat but I've had enough training to know that combat is very fluid and changes very fast. When moving and changing direction your midsection is the last thing to move. It's also the slowest part of the body to change directions. Becuase of this if a head shot is just out of range I think a midsection shot I definately an inteligent thought. I can see a good argument to go for a low center mass shot. I still believe center mass should be your first attempt though.
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February 20, 2011, 12:16 AM | #39 | |
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A man said one of the reasons he got the CCW was so he wouldn't end up begging for his life, and you question his manhood then lecture him on his moral obligation (based on your standard) to run away, risk getting shot in the back, throw down his gun, beg, and avoid pulling the trigger--- and then hope Bubba spares his life. People arm themselves so they aren't in that position in the first place. I know I do. |
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February 20, 2011, 01:48 AM | #40 | |
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Perhaps you may want to reread this http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ighlight=moral WildarewenotmenAlaska ™©2002-2011 |
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February 20, 2011, 01:52 AM | #41 |
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Yes, that's what I'm going to do. Beg for my life, beg for wife and loved ones lives!!
Me and my family would look like a covey of quail being spooked by a hunting dog. Everyone run for your lives, in different directions. Let the bad guy choose who he wants to robb, molest and kill. Sorry pal, not on my watch!! I will take the fight to him or them if my family is in danger. Gun or no gun and the courts can bite me!
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February 20, 2011, 01:55 AM | #42 |
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I think you guys need a reality check on deadly force.
WildthreadtimeAlaska ™©2002-2011 |
February 20, 2011, 04:12 AM | #43 |
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Well maybe where you all live BGs don't wear BP proof, but they do around here. Iv'e seen it and read about it.
I've thought about this, and have so practiced this. Take all the time needed as fast as it takes to hit him between the eyes. He can shoot at me quickly, but I'm sticking to my strategy. |
February 20, 2011, 07:49 AM | #44 |
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Failure to stop drills
When attempting to stop a threat, you must use lethal force, if deadly force has been applied, as best as you are trained, than continue to employ until it works. If you has fired a pair to the chest and the threat does not stop his movement, you should be moving to cover, preferably backward, to build a reactionary gap. A drugged up meth-head "may" not stop his movement until something is incapacitated. This is where the pelvic-gertal shot comes into play. It is a viable means of stopping the forward movement of an attacker but as stated before,"IT IS NOT AN ALWAYS THING" nor does it replace the the need to train hard and train right.
I am not a lawyer, CC instructor nor am I a EMT or MD/DO. Failure to stop drills are taught many ways by many juristictions. You need to learn what your local laws state. Any one who says that the Pelvicgertal shot is not taught or should not be taught might have a bit of tunnel vision. remember that the low shot is not the first round or rounds employed just another way to stop the threat from closing the gap and getting with-in arms distance.
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February 20, 2011, 09:33 AM | #45 |
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So you're at 15 yards and he's wearing body armor. Two to the chest didn't work. What's your next course of action? You're really going to try a head shot on a moving target at 15 yards? you said it yourself. 7 yards and in. No problem. The pelvic girdle shot is just an option. Although he still may be a stationary threat Trigger, he's not moving around anymore and it gives you options. Like Trio said, it's a tactic that can be utilized. Two to the body, one to the head is always taught first. There is no right and wrong. On the east coast we train with shields constantly. I took classes instructed by LAPD Swat and they weren't crazy about the amount of shield work that we do. NYPD ESU swears by them. It's just different schools of thought. East coast. West coast. Out here we teach the pelvic girdle as an option that's all. The bottom line is that we win the gunfight.
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February 20, 2011, 09:42 AM | #46 | |
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I'll be moving offline at an angle from the target, and firing the entire time until he is no longer a threat. COM, head, pelvis, multiple rounds or magazines, even beating him with an empty gun-whatever works to stop him/them. |
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February 20, 2011, 10:00 AM | #47 |
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+1 center of mass for initial shots. Most of the delicate, fragile stuff is here; lots of blood vessels, blood resevoirs. Under stress, it will be the easiest target to hit, and bad guys almost never wear body armor. The head is a very difficult target to hit with a sidearm unless it's sitting still, especially during an adrenaline dump. The pelvic girdle is a very effective target area, as it is large, full of blood and nerves, and supports mobility. Even someone hopped up on anything you care to mention cannot stand or move effectively with no physical support.
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February 20, 2011, 10:05 AM | #48 |
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The head is a pretty small and mobile target to hit. I believe in aiming center mass working down to the pelvic region and to keep firing until the threat stops. People have been now to take multiple bullet hits to the torso without effect but a broken pelvis, hop socket, or other support structure shouild immobilize him. I do train for headshots too for the "Hostage situation" but I think if the person was attacking me a headshot would be very, very difficult.
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February 20, 2011, 11:21 AM | #49 |
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If someone is coming in my front or back door, a head shot is going to be in line with a front or back neighbor's living-room. A shot to the pelvis, if it misses, is most likely going into turf.
My home defense first shots are going to be aimed at the pelvis. |
February 20, 2011, 03:38 PM | #50 |
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Interesting idea...
So, how about one with the baseball bat to the chest, then maybe mix it up, one to the groin to try to keep the target from collapsing before shot #3 back on mass... |
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