Why reload?

[leadcounsel]

Points all well-taken about reloading, and that's why I've said that I've toyed with the idea.

But it doesn't seem that many of you factor in the start up costs.

For example, a reasonably priced Dillons press with dies and all the gear for reloading is $500 shipped (sure they start at $300 and are even up to $1600 or more). It can produce 500 rounds per hour. Let's say the cost per .40 caliber handgun bullet is 10 cents, which is a number my friends commonly toss out. I want 10,000 rounds. That will cost me $500 initially plus $1000 in ammo costs plus 20 hours of labor plus 3 hours setup, learning curve, ordering, organizing, etc. Say you're salary is $40,000 per year. Your after tax hourly wage is roughly $13. 23 hours of work at this wage is about $300. The NET cost on that first 10,000 rounds is $1800. It's a different formula with different presses and different ammo, certainly. If you buy the $1600 press you can do 10,000 rounds in 10 hours. Total cost is $2800. (Assuming that .10 per shot is an accurate figure, maybe it's less or more depending on the ammo.)

Meanwhile, a non-reloaders first 10,000 rounds is going to cost $2000 for quality bullets and five minutes of time spent ordering online. Can get cheaper target ammo or more expensive defense loads.

For the first 10,000 shots it's about breakeven for reloaders and non-reloaders alike, depending on the press purchased or the ammo purchased.

Clearly after about the first 10,000 rounds it's the reloader who gets ahead.

For me it's really the startup costs that I'm not interested in... now if someone wants to give me a reloading press it may persuade me otherwise

[shu]

by reloading you will learn *why* there are a great variety of powders and bullets (shape, composition) etc. you will get an understanding of the shooting craft you would not get elsewhere.

if you load and shoot alot, several hundred rounds a week, you will likely save money.

that said, reloading takes time and is still in most cases 'selfish time' - time not spent with family, etc. consider your budget of time as well as dollars.

[geronimo13]

I am a newby to reloading. I did it to save money, play with getting a more accurate round, and being retired-have something to do with myself. I bought my first gun (after disliking them all my life) @ 53 yrs old. I shoot .223 in a Keltec su16 (auto loader), so it can use up the ammo quick. I bought a Lee 1000 progressive and spent approx $190 on the press, shell collator, double disk kit, case trimmer, Lee's reloading book, camfer tool, and dial calipers (harbor freight $13. With reusing my 1000 military .556 brass and buying bullets from midway my initial cost for 4K rounds INCLUDING EQUIPMENT worked out to less than $600 or $150/1K. I also can load 64 grain winchester power point for $.14/ instead of buying them for almost $1/ -wow. I agree that it's far easier to pick up the phone and order 1K ready to shoot but you cant vary loading for accuracy or load as cheap. Like anything the time spent researching info or having someone show you reloading, picking up brass, making a reloading bench, etc. Some calibers are so cheap to buy that reloading doesn't make sense for plinking. We all chose to spend time doing one thing or another, those that love it will convince you it's the bomb, those that don't-it's wasted time.

[BigO01]

As it's been said you realy won't save a bunch of money , but you will do 2-4 times "or more" the shooting for the same money .
Especialy if you're shooting just handguns like 45acp and 38/357 because you can get a ton of loads from one LB of powder . FYI a LB =7,000 grains so if your favorite load calls for say 5 grains you will get 1400 loadded rounds from a LB of powder with that load.

Many will tell you , you need to trim the cases , Maybe for rifles this is necessary but with most hanguns it is just a waste of your time "especialy for a revolver" . I have never trimmed a single case and have loadded thousands of rounds . A straight wall case will get thin and the mouth will split when it needs trimming , and this takes many many rounds fired with a case unless you are shooting Max loads . I have loadded cases more than 20 times and had them still going strong with medium power practice loads .

[kingudaroad]

I bought a .44 magnum, went to the range and shot 5 boxes of quality factory ammo ($75.00) in an hour and a half ($18.00 range fee). That's almost a hundred bucks for one shooting session.

So I spent around $500.00 for a reloading setup, 4 reloading manuals, dies, calipers etc. Then I paid the range $300.00 for unlimited shooting for one year.

Now that same range session costs about $25 bucks If I go 4 times a month.

I save $68.00 every time I shoot

Granted I would never be able to shoot once a week if I didn't reload, but reloading is the only way to go for magnum handgun shooters.

[Art Eatman]

First cost? Two of my RCBS presses are "good used", at around half-price of new. I've bought dies at a fair number of gun shows, same deal. Nothing wrong with used dies. Same for scales and powder measures. And, you commonly pick up the little bits and pieces of "stuff" that goes along with it. Chamfering tool. Shell-holder inserts.

The stuff doesn't wear out. If you're trying to be really good in IPSC or IDPA, a Dillon will pay for itself in a year or so. I'm still using a Dillon I bought in 1984. Lord only knows how much .45 ACP has come out of that rig.

Art

[sundog]

Bob, most of the way to determine whether to hand load or not comes from looking at WHAT and HOW MUCH you shoot (or plan to if ammo was more 'readily available').

If all you shoot is 9mm, then the cheapo stuff where ever you pick it up on sale could be just fine. If you're needing high performance stuff, and alot of it, for say, a varmint rig, then you need to hand load.

You don't need a 'Binford 9000 Super Progressive' to turn out a reasonable amout of useable pistol ammo. An inexpensive turret press works just fine, a little slower, but it works just fine.

If all you need is a few rounds a year for hunting in a .308 bolt gun, there's some pretty good premium ammo available now. Find one your gun likes and then go buy a whole bunch of the same lot number and you're set for several years.

If you decide to hand load, you do NOT have to keep buying stuff (other than components). A press and dies, scale, powder dump, calipers, maybe a case trimmer, safety glasses, and a few other odds and ends, and you could load for years without buying another piece of equipment. Almost everything I have was obtained used from garage sales, swap meets, gun shows, estate sales, etc. I make pretty darn good ammo, too.

One main consideration is time. That is a precious, nonrenewable commodity, and if you don't have it, don't start loading.

Another consideration is cost. Someone mentioned the price of the mag pistol ammo. I shoot exclusively my own cast in all handgun calibers (and almost all rifle) and load everything for about a buck or two per 50 depending on powder charge, and that's probably high siding it. Brass cost is not a consideration as it lasts alot of loadings, even so it could be depreciated at maybe a penny per loading. I've got some 45 acp brass that's so well used that the head stamp it gone, and it still functions. I buy primers in bulk to save.

Soooo, it depends. Do you have the time? Do you have space, to load, to store primers, and to store powder? You're going to buy the components one way or the other, either factory assembled or in pieces, so the cost issue is whether you want to save a buck or two. Cost of your equipment is a one time start up. And probably the last issue is, do you really want to? If you don't, don't. You can still be a good shooter and enjoy all the shooting sports. sundog

[Edward429451]

2000 bucks for startup costs, leadcounsel? Shooting the moon are we??

I started with a RC'er and a scale. Dump powder in cereal bowl and tap tap tap powder into the pan with a spoon. The other stuff comes later.

Plus you didn't figure in the savings of the beer joint money like Art said, and I even figure in a possible savings in traffic tickets. I gotta lead foot and I know I saved myself some tickets over time by being home reloading instead of out driving around.

Dillon machines can be paid for pretty quick if you load any rifle rounds on them. Deduct the savings at the going rate for Federeal GMM for each box. The Dillon put out ammo that good if you do your part.

[silicon wolverine]

Something you guys are leaving out is shotgun relaoding. When i shot trap regular i shot anywhere from 150 to 500 rounds a week. Even using discount ammo thats still alot of dough. If i reload i can load about 400 rounds for around 60$ give or take. If i bought that much it would be about 85$. Now take that times the 32 weeks ayear i shot and you get 800$ a year savings. Pays out when you look long term.

SW

[qajaq59]

All hobbies are an investment in time and money and unless a particular hobby floats your boat it is better avoided. However, I don't worry much about voiding warrantees or blowing up rifles because I am careful. And I have been careful since the early sixties. Reloading, especially for high powered rifles, is all about precision and unless you really enjoy being picky, it would be a great hobby to avoid like the plague.

[Jamie Young]

Anyone see the cost of ammo these days!

That's why....

I've recently given up on surplus ammo and invested my money on brass, powder and bullets. I'm also about to jump back into reloading 7.62x39.

[leadcounsel]

I have to say that I'm getting more convinced about reloading and it might actually be something I would enjoy in my down time.

I was thinking about the position counter to mine and it occured to me that after the "break even" point, it's a hobby that pays you a dividend.

So, here are my questions:

What is the useful lifespan of brass? Is it possible to mistakenly use stressed brass and damage your gun or injure yourself?

I have a variety of calibers; pistols, rifles, shotguns. What is the best method for reloading all? Can it all be done with one machine?

I'd like something that doesn't require a lot of stages. I once tried reloading on a friends' very basic press and found that it took a lot of steps and was slow and tedious. I'd prefer something that requires a very simple approach. Suggestions?

Also, suggestions on where to find quality used reloading gear so I'm not buying retail?

Thanks. This may be a hobby worth investing time in.

[P-990]

lead,
For metallic cartridges, something like a Lee Turret press (either the older style or the newer one), can produce up to 150 rounds an hour, in handgun and rifle calibers up to .223. Not sure, but I think the newer press can go up to .30-06. It's about as simple as you can get and still maintain some sort of speed.

A progressive loader is going to run more money and is a more complicated thing to run. You have to worry about having cases handy, bullets handy, enough primers in the feeder and enough powder in the hopper. Once you master those taks though, the speed with which you can produce excellent ammo is surprising. I figure I could realistically get 300 rounds an hour out of a "simple" Lee Pro 1000 that is set up behind me.

For used gear, check out Ebay of all places. Sometimes stuff will come up in the local classifieds and on posters at the range. Just keep an eye out and you'd be surprised at what turns up.

As for cost versus quality, well, I went to the National Matches shooting ammo loaded with much-berated Lee dies (I think they're $20-25 a set), on a $100 Lee Anniversary kit (comes with a powder measure, a basic press, a powder scale, a priming tool and some other odds and ends I can no longer remember), and shot well enough for my first time. You don't have to spend a super-fortune on new gear to make ammo as good as or better than factory ammo.

Edited: Brass used to the end of it's life won't damage your firearm. I've split my share of cases in my .44 and .223 and never known anything was amiss until after the fact.

[Edward429451]

useful lifespan of brass?

The rule is when in doubt pitch it out. Brass is cheap compared to guns. Pistol brass such as 45acp and medium loded 44 mags, I generally shoot until I lose it. If I'm loading close to max or max loads, I use it about 3 to 4 times and pitch it. Rifle brass I don't load more than 4 times and pitch it even if it still looks good.

What is the best method for reloading all? Can it all be done with one machine?

It can all be done on one machine depending on the machine. The best method (for you) is yet to be discovered by you. How fast do you want to go? I have single stage presses and progressive presses. My method, basically, is the closer I am to a max load I use single stage, or if I'm trying to make a super accurate load I'll use a single stage. If I'm using a difficult to measure powder, I use a SS. For target loads, plinking ammo, and less than max rifle loads (with a powder that meters good) I'll set up the progressive press for them.

I'd like something that doesn't require a lot of stages. I once tried reloading on a friends' very basic press and found that it took a lot of steps and was slow and tedious. I'd prefer something that requires a very simple approach. Suggestions?

Sounds like a Turret press would be a good buy for you. It's kinda single stagish yet faster too. (I've never used a Turret press). Slow and tedious...maybe for pistol ammo on a SS. Try not to think that way when loading for rifles. Instead think...Interesting & meticulous. Rifle cartridge loading is a different ballgame than pistol rounds. The more tediou er meticulous you are in brass prep, the greater rewards at the target. It's worth it to take your time loading for the rifle rounds, (I do load .223 on the Dillon progressive with ball powder). Personally, I suggest starting out on a non progressive press with handgun calibers until you get the feel for it and then a little ways down the road jump into rifle.

where to find quality used reloading gear so I'm not buying retail?

Garage sales, gun shows, pawn shops, gunbroker, esate sales, gun forum boards!

HTH's.

[Smokey Joe]

Leadcounsel--Yr question re "all on one machine" is interesting.

Shotgun cartridges are a whole nother ball game. Better to have a dedicated machine for that. MEC makes a variety of good inexpensive ones. With shotgun reloading, the recipies are VERY sensitive to changes--you must use EXACTLY the shot, wad, powder, primer, AND case, that the recipie calls for.

Pistol & rifle (both being metallic cartridges) you could do all on the same press; many people do. You want a single stage press to learn on. Used is fine for a press; they never wear out. The single stage will not be wasted money if you decide to get a progressive later, as you will still need it for short runs, working up loads, case prep, etc.

I think there are machines that will do both shotgun and metallic cartridges, but they'd be complicated and expensive; probably more so than buying separate machines.

Can't remember--did I reccommend The ABC's of Reloading to you--it is a comprehensive work on the subject and will answer many of yr questions. It is put out by Krause Publishing www.krause.com or get it at yr local sptg gds sto, gun sho, or the I'net. It belongs on every reloader's bookshelf, well thumbed. Should you decide not to get into reloading, The ABC's will give you a greater understanding and appreciation of what goes into the ammunition we use, so there is no downside to purchasing it.

The posters who cautioned that you need to be careful, pay attention to detail, etc, are right on the money.

Time spent on a hobby: IMHO, time spent on a hobby is an asset, not a liability. The time so spent does not have a negative value which must be rated against the hobby.

[Buckythebrewer]

Reason for reloading???600+yrds!!!try that with factory ammo.. Handloads will smoke factory ammo out that far..you can pick the best bullet/powder charge,etc,etc to match your application perfectly.store ammo is limited in what it can do.nothing will change that..store ammo has its place but for precision shooting it is out of the question

[sundog]

Smokey Joe recommended ABCs of Reloading. Excellent choice. The other, which is used for the NRA Reloaders course, and is also excellent, is NRA Reloading Guide. Get one or both and study before you jump into it. sundog

Also try this web site for the National Reloaders Mfg's Assc - http://www.reload-nrma.com/

[Art Eatman]

.45 ACP, I load til the case splits when a bullet is seated. It shoots okay, though, and so I then toss it out.

Rifle brass? I only neck resize for stuff shot new in my rifle. (I mostly shoot '06.) I'd guess toss it after the second trimming? Mostly, watch for signs of separation. Twenty or more reloads, anyhow.

Hey, I started out loading '06 with a Lyman 310 tong tool. How cheap ya wanna get? I still have the screwdriver I used to clean primer pockets. I reamed GI primer pockets with a pocket knife. My powder scale was a hand-me-down Pacific that you screwed a beam-weight back and forth to match the weights in the pan when you changed loads. I still got MOA loads.

, Art

[HK45]

As long as you buy used equipment and don't overpay, you can take that out of the equation entirely because it will always be worth what you paid for it when you decide to sell.

[qajaq59]

For me quite frankly, it has nothing to do with saving money at all. I only shoot maybe a hundred rounds of .30 cal rifle ammo a week and I could well afford to buy it. But where is the fun in shooting ammo that some robot put together? I wouldn't even use a factory made rifle if I was clever enough to build my own, like my brother does.
If I blow the center out of a target with my own ammo I feel great, and if I can't hit the side of a barn with it, well then at least it is my fault, and it didn't happen because the robot needed oil.
I think the major reason is I just plain want to see how well I can do it.