Question on Mauser sling set-up:

[jimbob86]

I see many of these Mausers (K98, Yugo 24/47, etc....) with the sling attachment points set up on the left side of the rifle. How's that work if you are using the sling as a shooting aid to "loop up"? Would it not pull the rifle to the left when you settle in?

I can see how it would make for a more comfortable carry on your back, but your back isn't a real good place for a fighting (or hunting!) rifle.....

[dahermit]

It is likely that the Mauser being a European military rifle, the "sling" was intended to be a "carry" strap and not seen as an aid to shooting. A shooting sling is a specialized aid used in target competition. Most of the issue slings on Mausers I have seen were too short, without the adjustments to ever be used as a competition sling.

[jimbob86]

A shooting sling is a specialized aid used in target competition.

Gosh, I did not realize that the military style sling available in Walmarts everywhere was a specialized aid for shooting competitions.......

I have one on all my hunting rifles..... something so simple and inexpensive that so greatly increasess the practical accuracy of a rifle...... of course Euro militaries would hate it ....... mehbeeee..... mehbee that's why OUR .mil no longer issues them (or even rifles-they give out carbine length assault rifles to pretty near eveyone).....

SO...... the left side sling arrangement will not work as a shooting aid?

[Scorch]

If you look at WW1 and WW2 photos, you will see that many/most German soldiers carried their slung across their backs, so called "forager carry". This left their hands free for other things. US troops tended to carry rifles slung over their shoulder, requiring a hand to steady it but allowing it to be put into action quickly. US troops also tended to be trained riflemen rather than just infantry, and a lot of emphasis was placed on marksmanship, so a carry sling that could also be used as a shooting sling makes sense. Different philosophies, different methods. Could the Germans have designed a multi-purpose sling like the US sling? Sure, but that was not in their mental model.

[AK103K]

Could the Germans have designed a multi-purpose sling like the US sling?

Actually, they invented the first, and still one of the best, just look at the early HK series guns.


I think to put things in a more realistic perspective, you really need to ask those who have been in combat, how many times that actually used their slings "target fashion", in combat.

These days, the traditional US type sling set up has been surpassed by one, two, and three point slings that arent really suited as a "target" sling. They offer more ways to carry and employ the gun, especially in a more instant ready mode.

Other than a target range, or in a static position, where you might have open ground with longer than the normal engagement distances and the opportunity to sling up, where are you actually going to use the more traditional shooting sling? Even the military saw the need for something better, even if those cheesy wire and loop "adapt-a-kits" they came up with to convert the old web slings were lacking.

If you feel the need, and your rifle has the lower, forward mount, you could always carry one of the basic web straps, and use it in that capacity if the need ever arose.


Personally, I prefer the two point type slings with the hardware mounted on the left side. They are less cumbersome than the three points, dont slam you in the nuts when you let go of the gun, or ram the muzzle into the ground when you take a knee, like the single points, and can be set up in a number of ways for both comfort and use. I may not shoot those nice little bulls eye groups with my rifles equipped with them, but I dont seem to have to much trouble making good hits at realistic ranges with them either.

Maybe what you prefer is just all about perspective and how you use your gun?

[jimbob86]

you really need to ask those who have been in combat, how many times that actually used their slings "target fashion", in combat.

Never used my personal weapon- the ranges the combat was taking place at pretty much precluded anything smaller than a .50 cal..... all the direct fire I saw (which was very little in comparison to indirect and air support) in LFX Desert Storm was at ranges in excess of 1,000 meters.....

As I understand it, the average range of inititial contacts in Afghanistan is in excess of 500 meters.... pretty much precluding precision fire by troops armed with the M-4 anyway, sling or not. The doctrine now seems to be to engage the enemy with area fire to fix him until air or artillery can be dropped on his head.

Actually, they (the Germans) invented them first, and still one of the best, just look at the early HK series guns.

I am unfamiliar with this- link?

[wwd88888]

I would think if you are looped up tight enough to pull to the left, you would also pull down and to the left with a sling mounted under the stock. I have seen German ww2 instruction documents showing the use of the sling in this fashion - the left arm elbow is held inside the sling instead of outside.

The picture looks more ergonomic than pulling a sling mounted under the weapon out and around the left arm.

[AK103K]

Never used my personal weapon-

Except for comfortable carry, that kind of makes the shooting sling a moot point then, eh?

As I understand it, the average range of inititial contacts in Afghanistan is in excess of 500 meters.... pretty much precluding precision fire by troops armed with the M-4 anyway, sling or not. The doctrine now seems to be to engage the enemy with area fire to fix him until air or artillery can be dropped on his head.

Such is the way things go as the environment and tactics change. Some always seem to take longer to figure this out than others too. Not saying "old school" technology and methods are necessarily obsolete, just that as things change, they just might not be the right thing for whats currently going on. Still, its always good to have the skills, on the off chance you can take advantage of them, assuming you still have the means to do so.

I am unfamiliar with this- link?

Starts at page 75, with pics showing usage a few pages down from there.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3709447/HK...erators-manual

Prior to the G3's and MP5's, I dont remember ever seeing a "practical" sling set up like this. This is mid 60's era technology, which we really didnt start to take hold here, in even a very basic form, until the late 80's early 90's.

The HK seires of guns actually started most of what is taken for granted here today. They were the originators of things like the modular concept, mass produced, zero repeatable optics mounts, one of the best "combat" iron sight systems, among other things.

[jimbob86]

Could the Germans have designed a multi-purpose sling like the US sling?

Actually, they invented the first, and still one of the best, just look at the early HK series guns.

I think you are talking about two very different things here...... the M1907 sling predates the Mp5 by 50 years.....

[AK103K]

I see your point. I suppose I was getting ahead of myself there.

On the other hand, this far along, in the here and now, it seems we've actually followed the German model after all.

[jimbob86]

On the other hand, this far along, in the here and now, it seems we've actually followed the German model after all.

Not that that is a good thing.....

[Jimro]

Modern Infantry tactics don't "fix the enemy and call for indirect or air" as has been stated. The manual actually lists a large number of options when it comes to "react to contact" and calling for CAS or arty are two options among many.

As far as the M4 goes, it is fine out to about 600 meters, or further if the user has access to mk262 ammunition. The problem is that here in Afghanistan 600 meters is only a small portion of line of sight available up in the mountains. Even 7.62 equipped Scout Platoons have to rely heavily on Air Weapons Teams, CAS, or arty to handle things that they spot five to seven kilometers out. Even the big 50's don't shoot that far.

Jimro

[AK103K]

Not that that is a good thing.....

That depends on your perspective.

If youre a target shooter, probably not. If you have to use the rifle in a more realistic fashion day in and day out, youre likely to have a different outlook on things.

Just out of curiosity, how was the sling on your rifle set up? With the basic "black strap" web sling, traditionally mounted, or something else?

[Jimro]

My issue M4 is set up with a 3 point sling. I find it is the most comfortable way to carry the weapon when not in body armor. When in body armor a wolf hook to your firing shoulder is the best way. Either way, when you let go of the rifle to do something else with your hands it simply falls to your dominant shooting side, relatively out of the way. 3 point slings have one failing, sometimes they get in the way of the bolt release for reloads, but a hearty SLAP fixes that right up, just have to train yourself not to use your thumb.

Jimro

[BlueTrain]

Not to comment on anything that's already been said but at least one Mauser carbine or short rifle (I think maybe the FN 1924, if I remember correctly) had two sets of sling attachments, although I doubt they were intended as shooting aids. They were intended for, uh, slinging. However, using a sling as a shooting aid has a long history.

There were units of riflemen in the British army during the Napoleonic Wars that had already developed shooting techniques that involved using the sling. Up until the present rifle was adopted, those units never tightened the sling for parade purposes and even carried the rifle in the hand, not sloped on the shoulder, which is still done. They have other odd practices, too. They originated as the 5th Battalion of the 60th Regiment (Royal Americans). Isn't the name interesting? The 60th was mostly foreign born, however, chiefly German. We would find some of their shooting styles a little bizarre but those unusual forms lasted through the heyday of the single shot target shooting craze of the late 1800s.

[jimbob86]

Just out of curiosity, how was the sling on your rifle set up? With the basic "black strap" web sling, traditionally mounted, or something else?

Traditional black nylon strap.

I was a general support artilleryman, 8" M110a2 and M109a2/a3, 1987-1995.

I had never heard of using a sling as a shooting aid, until I got out of the Army- they did not teach it, and the general consensus (voiced by the leadership, no less) in all but the last unit I was in (training up for Bosnia deployment) was that "If you need that M-16, we are toast anyhow." ...... not real reassuring..... we spent almost zero training time on infantry tactics or marksmanship, with most of our time being spent on maintaining and training with the guns and ammo carriers..... even training up for Bosnia, we spent more time on crew served weapons than on the M-16's.

[BlueTrain]

I took artillery training when I was in the army and you are correct, they do not teach infantry tactics in artillery training. I don't even remember having rifles in AIT.