Anybody have any experience with this Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die?

[deepcore]

I came across this LarryWillis.com/Innovative Technologies Belted Magnum Resizing die.



http://larrywillis.com/


Has anyone had any experience (good or bad) with it?

[oldscot3]

I've seen that before, looks good, but I don't need one for my rifle. I bump the neck up on new brass, then size it back just enough to chamber. The once fired brass expands there, just in front of the belt, but chambers just fine after sizing with my ordinary die.

[chiefr]

I checked out the website and frankly speaking, I do not experience the case bulging problem he described. I have some belted magnum cases I have reloaded many times. Since all of my belted mag reloading is dedicated to its own rifle, I neck size only. One thing I do periodically is use a balled scribe {same type used to check wheel bearing surfaces} to check for impending head separation on my cases. It really works.
Looking into inovative technologys product, I guess I could see a niche for his tool since it can be used on many different cartridges, however it does require extra steps. Thanks for the info.

[Innovative]

Factory belted ammo headspaces on the belt, and the shoulder gets blown forward .015" to .025" at the very first firing. That stretches, thins, and weakens belted cases far more than any non-belted case will ever experience. After that, the cumulative wear from reloading (pushing downward on the case) eventually causes a bulge at the weakest place - just above the belt.

This problem doesn't get serious for the first 2 or 3 loadings, and I've found that many shooters don't understand that cases only bulge during the reloading process - not when the case is in the chamber. So, it doesn't matter if you're loading for one rifle or several different rifles.

A bulged case bulge can easily be measured with ordinary calipers. In fact, the top of our collet die is a case width gauge that shows when a little "extra" resizing is needed. After I designed several prototypes, the collet die proved to be the best method to resize belted cases.

Remember: you shouldn't be able to "feel" your cases chamber - not even a little bit.

[Nathan]

Remember: you shouldn't be able to "feel" your cases chamber - not even a little bit.

Why's that?

[Innovative]

Nathan ......

When your handloads get squeezed into your chamber, and it puts stress on your action. This destroys accuracy just like a stock that isn't bedded properly.

You also want your handloads to be as straight as possible. When they get squeezed into your chamber, they become anything but concentric.

Also ..... if handloads are tight enough to "feel" as they chamber, they're only a few ten thousandths of an inch away from not fitting at all.

Benchrest shooters will tell you that FL sizing is the best way to go. However, FL sizing MUST be done accurately. It's especially important for belted magnum handloads to headspace on the shoulder, and that requires measuring.

[wever]

I bump the neck up on new brass, then size it back just enough to chamber. The once fired brass expands there, just in front of the belt, but chambers just fine after sizing with my ordinary die.


Would this be an alternative to fire forming new brass? The difference between new brass and f/f brass in my Savage 7mm Rem mag is .022" using the Hornady headspace comparator. Or are there other alternatives?

[Bart B.]

The Willis collet die's probably the best reloading tool for belted cases since the reloading press was invented.

I've worn out 3 or 4 belted 30 caliber barrels in competion. The only way I got reloads for them to shoot sub 5/8 MOA at 1000 yards was to use brand new cases or resize fired ones such that the ridge in front of the belt got sized down to new case diameters. Folks used to cut the center part out of a standard full length sizing die then use it either before or after using a standard full length sizing die. That body die has to be set so the case body is sized all the way back to the belt; not 1/32 inch in front of it like standard full length dies do. Otherwise, that ridge prevents the case head from chambering the same for each shot; it causes interference when the bolt's closed.

The reason one should not feel any binding when closing the bolt on a chambered round is it makes the bolt head lock up in different places for each shot. Biggest cause of this is out of square bolt faces closing on previously fired cases whose heads are now more out of square; when the two high points align binding is at its worst. That changes how the barreled action whips around a bit when the round's fired. If the barrel doesn's whip the same for each shot, bullets won't strike very close to each other.

'Course if you can't shoot 20 or more consecutive shots of your belted case ammo into 1/4 MOA at 100 or 5/8 MOA at 1000, then you probably won't see nor appreciate what the Willis Collet Die will do. A great thing about it is it doesn't push body brass up against the belt like the old body dies used years ago do. One can probably get 20 or more loads per case instead of 10 to 15 we got with the body dies we used to make

[Bart B.]

Wever asks about the collet die:

Would this be an alternative to fire forming new brass? The difference between new brass and f/f brass in my Savage 7mm Rem mag is .022" using the Hornady headspace comparator. Or are there other alternatives?

That 22 thousandths difference between your new and fired brass is quite a bit. But good accuracy with new cases should be attainable. I wouldn't fire-form new cases for a 7 Rem Mag; their barrel life's short enough as it is.

If you used a small base full length sizing die on your new cases before first firing them, the case body may reduce in diameter enough to push the shoulder forward several thousandths. But I don't know if one's available for the 7 Rem Mag.

[F. Guffey]

When question are asked and start with Larry Willis and collet sizer die and head space gages I have to wonder if this is about Larry plowing new ground on another reloading forum.

And I have to ask if it is OK to disagree with Larry and those that I have accused of pushing his tools?

F. Guffey

I sent a rifle back to Winchester, they started out thinking I was difficult, then it turned into something like they thought I was impossible, I wanted a rifle with a chamber that my dies would fit, or I wanted a set of dies that matched Winchester’s chamber. They sent the rifle back in a new box.

Weaver, if you have a difference in length of .022 thousandths apply the ‘LEAVER POLICY”, when sizing your cases limit the amount of sizing by adjusting the die off the shell holder, I suggest using the feeler gage, some will recommend Reading competition shell holders, problem, .010 thousandths is the max, I suppose someone could use the .010+ shell holder then add an additional .017 – or +.

[F. Guffey]

Bart B., he did not say he had trouble stuffing the fired case into a die and or the chamber, he said he checked the difference in length between minimum length/full length cases and fired cases with a comparator and found the difference was/is .022, If I understand you correctly? you are trying to sell him another tool, that he does not need. Now we both know that .022 thousandths” is perceived to be a lot of traveling, well, one of us does, the question now is what technique and or method should he apply when sizing, I would suggest the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, the feeler gage is a standard, it is a transfer, and the most humblest of tools, the feeler gage is a tool for verifying adjustments.

F. Guffey

[Bart B.]

No, Feelergage Guffey, I'm not trying to sell him another tool. Go back to grade school English reading classes, pass the course then you might be able to understand and comprehend what I said.

I just suggested a way to make his new cases have a bit longer case headspace at the shoulder so they wouldn't have so much shoulder jump to the chamber shoulder.

[F. Guffey]

"I just suggested a way to make his new cases have a bit longer case head space at the shoulder so they wouldn't have so much shoulder jump to the chamber shoulder"

If he does not have a small base die he will have to purchase one, then there is the unnecessary working of the brass with the small base die, then there is the illusion there is a case shoulder jump to the chamber shoulder, I would suggest measuring the length of the case before firing and again after firing.

But, you do not consider information gained by measuring before firing has a value.

F. Guffey

[wncchester]

"Go back to grade school English reading classes, pass the course ..."

And maybe learn to write comprehensively too!

The Innovative collet die works as advertized. It's a 'specialty' tool and, as such, if we need it's great but if we don't need it then it doesn't matter.

[Innovative]

Everyone eventually develops their own methods and techniques for reloading. There is rarely just one way to accomplish the same thing. The main reason for so much conflab on this subject is because a complete explanation would require a very long story (maybe a whole website), and there could still be room for incorrect interpretation.

Bart B ............

I use something similar to Guffey's feeler gauge idea. Except it's a set of precision round washers that are placed under the FL sizing die. They come in different thickness (like a feeler gauge). The important thing here is to use the correct washer. This way, (after measuring) you can just select the right washer and just bump your ram into your FL resizing die. Your case shoulder gets set back the correct amount every time.

Guffey ............

I've found that small base dies cause more problems than they solve - especially with belted magnum calibers. That's why I designed the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die. Small base dies are so tight, they will plow the brass toward the head. If you look close, you can see the build-up over the web (solid part of the case). They also shave the brass where it's the thinnest, at the transition to the web.

deepcore ............

To answer your original question about personal experiences with the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die, read this page:
http://www.larrywillis.com/testimonials.html

[Linear Thinker]

I've been using Larry's collet die for years, it makes a noticeable difference in chambering the handloaded rounds for the Magnum calibers I reload.
It was expensive, but that part was soon forgotten.

So, I'm delighted to help Larry push his merchandise, as some folks seem to call it.
LT

[Bart B.]

Larry, your comment:

I use something similar to Guffey's feeler gauge idea. Except it's a set of precision round washers that are placed under the FL sizing die. They come in different thickness (like a feeler gauge). The important thing here is to use the correct washer.

I knew a guy years ago who made some washers out of shim stock to do the same thing. He got tired of slipping one around the case after sliding it into the shell holder so he just got a couple extra shell holders then glued the washers on top of them. Had to cut out about 1/3 of the washer so he could slide cases in the shell holder and not have to handle the washer. He called them "spacers" which seemed like a good idea to me.

I ended up using a 50/50 mix of STP engine oil treatment and Hoppe's No. 9 bore cleaner to lube cases with. That let me keep sized case headspace spread down under 2 thousandths; good enough for me.

[F. Guffey]

Skip’s shims, all the rage, gigs of space is being used on reloading forms to promote a means of adjusting the die off the shell holder, remove the die, add a shim, install the die with the shim AND! the die has threads, threads are described as an incline plane, when adjusting the die the die is rotated, as the die is rotated clock wise the bottom of the die gets closer to the shell holder.....forgive.....I could go on but I do know how futile that would be, all the sweat hogs would start claiming they are so confused, point? it is easier to separate them from their money than it is to sell then on an ideal....or a concept.

Then after installing Skips shims the adjustment should be verified, then the question “if the reloader is going to verify why use Skip’s shims?”

Bart B. you claim he as in someone glued a trimmed feeler gage to a shell holder, Do you remember where he attached the spacer to the shell holder? Again, I do not secure the lock ring to the die, I use the lock ring to secure the die to the press, and, I verify the adjustment, after the die is adjusted and secured to the press the reloader can place the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage back in the tool box, or leave it on the bench, I use stands.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

Bart B. said:

"I just suggested a way to make his new cases have a bit longer case head space at the shoulder so they wouldn't have so much shoulder jump to the chamber shoulder"


I said: If he does not have a small base die he will have to purchase one, then there is the unnecessary working of the brass with the small base die, then there is the illusion there is a case shoulder jump to the chamber shoulder, I would suggest measuring the length of the case before firing and again after firing.

But, you do not consider information gained by measuring before firing has a value.

wncchester said:

"Go back to grade school English reading classes, pass the course ..."

And maybe learn to write comprehensively too!

The Innovative collet die works as advertized. It's a 'specialty' tool and, as such, if we need it's great but if we don't need it then it doesn't matter.




wnnchester, I do not have a fan club, therefore I have no obligation to jump out into the fast lane and show off, if you will notice ‘you the literary giant’ misspelled advertised, and that is OK, I know how close the ‘z’ key is to the ‘s’ key.

I would like to explain Bart B.’s outburst, "I just suggested a way to make his new cases have a bit longer case head space at the shoulder so they wouldn't have so much shoulder jump to the chamber shoulder” had Bart B. stopped there he would still be wrong as uninformed, you would not notice but I did not call him anything by insulting him, I said “then there is the illusion there is a case shoulder jump to the chamber”

Back to showing off, explain to Bart.B. the illusion: “then there is the illusion there is a case shoulder jump to the chamber”.

Then explain, to your fans, what Bart B. recommended/suggested when using a small base die, and I said I sent a model 70 Winchester 300 Win Mag back to Winchester, the chamber was too large, fired cases were too large to be sized with my dies, and I have small base dies and BAR dies, (typing slower), there is nothing wrong with my dies, reducing the diameter of my fired cases to accommodate sizing would not have eliminated the problem, the chamber was ugly.

F. Guffey

[Bucksnort1]

I have experience with the Innovative resizing collet. The collet costs about $95, not including shipping. This collet will resize about seven different calibers of belted cases, including 300 Weatherby and 7mm Rem Mag, which I reload. Someone mentioned his cases are fired in only one rifle; therefore, he has no problems with bulging. Perhaps he is lucky. Most of the bulging in belted cases is not caused by firing but rather, by re-sizing the case. To my knowledge, there are no re-sizing dies that re-size all the way to the bottom of the case. This is true for belted cases too so when you resize a belted case, the die may push the brass down and create the bulge.

The collet serves two purposes. First, before installing the collet in your die and in the press, you simply slide cases into one end of the collet. If the belt touches the collet, these cases do not need to be re-sized with the collet. If the belt does not touch the collet, re-size with the collet. Of course, the second function is to re-size bulging cases.

Thanks, Pogybait.

[Bart B.]

Pogybait, read my post (#8 in this thread) about body dies used decades ago to size fired belted cases all the way to the belt.

[Bucksnort1]

Bart B, thanks for the response. Although I signed up last summer, I'm new to blogs and the blogosphere. I did read your comments. May I assume you purchased one of these and are using it?

[Bucksnort1]

Ok, sailor, why does the Navy think its coffee is so good while at sea?

Bart B, you sound like a very experienced loader. Years ago, when I began reloading and didn't know squat, I loaded some 399 Weatherby rounds, took them to the range and had the problem of not being able to close the bolt. I set aside loading for the 300 for a number of years because I had plenty of factory Weatherby ammo. This past winter, I began loading for the 7mm Rem mag, which motivated me to begin loading again for the 300. I remembered the chambering problem so I began researching, which is how I found Willis. I had some good telephone conversations with him.

Because I'm new to blogs, will you tell me how to start a new topic? I have a question about head space with non-belted cases. Thanks.

[Bart B.]

I've no idea why Navy guys think its coffee is as good as it is at sea other than it's the only kind around. We quit pirating merchant ships centuries ago to get better coffee; wasn't worth the effort.

Start new threads by clicking on the "New Thread" screen button in the upper left=hand part of the topic page, fill it out then click it to submit it.

I didn't buy a collet die from Larry Willis. Instead, I took a .338 Win Mag full length sizing die, cut its bottom off just above the belt clearance area and its top off just below the body-shoulder juncture. Squared off it's bottom then put a tiny radius on the inside edge so it wouldn't scrape cases first sized by a standard full length sizing die. Set in in the press so it's bottom stopped a couple thousandths short of touching the belt with the case all the way up with the ram. Got the idea from a Nat'l Champion I shot with sometime around 1970; long before Larry Willis started making his collet dies.

[F. Guffey]

The case expands ahead of the belt, reloaders insist on stuffing the case into their die.

Winchester and I had words, I wanted a chamber that fit my dies, or I wanted to a set of Winchester dies that fit their chamber. I know, there are a lot of Vinnie's out there that are 'so confused'. In the old days bulged cases ahead of the belt were sized ahead of the belt 'sort of' with collets in a lathe, there were more reloaders that understood the expansion then than now, and they were more mature.

F. Guffey