Saiga 12

TylerD45ACP · June 28, 2011, 10:38 PM

I am really interested in this shotgun. It seems like an excellent weapon to have maybe for home defense. I just wanted to hear any input from owners of the gun. I like how its based on the AK design and magazine fed. How does the 20 round drum work? Thanks for any input.

C0untZer0 · June 28, 2011, 10:41 PM

Do you live near a graveyard or something?

I don't think you'll need more than 19 shells for home defense but I guess that 20th round can't hurt, better safe than sorry eh?

TylerD45ACP · June 29, 2011, 12:07 AM

No I dont need it just curious about it. I like the shotgun and think its cool. I would have some fun with it you know.

jmortimer · June 29, 2011, 12:56 AM

Unless you want to take the time and $$$ to make it reliable enough for self-defense, I think your idea about having fun with it is a good one. For less $$$ a 930 SPX would be more reliable out of the box for self-defense and cost less $$$ than one you dump a lot of $$$ into.

erwos · June 29, 2011, 10:10 AM

jmortimer nailed it. The Saiga 12 is an amazing shotgun, but it usually has serious reliability issues out of the box - badly-drilled holes not providing enough gas to cycle the gun, a rod that's more fragile than it should be, etc. You can fix those, but you're going to spend non-trivial time and money doing so. You're better off with a 930 SPX for home defense.

Technosavant · June 29, 2011, 12:27 PM

It's not a bad gun, but not as awesome for defense as you'd think. The receiver is LOOONG, so the thing itself is unwieldy in tight confines. While quality control is, well, Russian, the good news is that if the gas ports are done reasonably correctly (at least 3), you shouldn't have any problems. Vodka specials (2 or fewer gas ports)) are far from uncommon, so don't buy sight unseen; you want to pull the gas valve and have a look on the specific one you're looking at.

Conversion to a standard AK-like pistol grip and stock requires moving the fire control group forward, and that's a piece of cake.

You will need to make sure you break it in with heavy loads; these guns don't like being babied with light loads. Mine still doesn't feed all that well; every now and then a shell will nose-up into the top of the chamber, jamming up the works. It just isn't as reliable a feeding mechanism as you'd find in a more traditional tube fed semiauto.

Mag changes aren't as quick and easy as you'd think. Rather cumbersome, in fact. A magwell can fix this, but that's something else to buy and install.

Basically, the reason to use a S12 for defense is to be using a S12 for defense. If you want a quality defensive semiauto, then there's other options out there that will work better for less money with a greater chance of working right out of the box.

oneounceload · June 29, 2011, 01:30 PM

One serious thing to consider if you are using this for HD is that a loaded magazine left that way for a time will distort the round at the top, making it impossible to feed - thus resulting in a jam

TylerD45ACP · June 29, 2011, 02:33 PM

Thanks for all the information it has been helpful. I will look in to alternates I was just curious about it, I like the Benelli M4 alot too.

MC 1911 · June 29, 2011, 07:52 PM

Check out the MKA 1919. Its an AR style 12 gauge. Not perfect but very nice for the $. Still new so aftermarket parts are not available but Tromix has some things in the works from what I've seen on the net.

rottieman33 · June 29, 2011, 08:36 PM

I own a Saiga 12 never had any problems with it out of the box been a great gun. And the MD20 20 round drum is fun I got 2 of the drums and 4 10 round mags. This site will tell you everything you want to know about the gun and the people on the site are helpful. http://forum.saiga-12.com

TylerD45ACP · June 29, 2011, 09:20 PM

That Saiga is sweet. It looks really nice. The idea of the gun is just very cool a lot of firepower. A 20 rd Drum of say 2 3/4" 00 Buck 12 pellet and 4 10 round mags 2 with 00 Buck 12 pellet one with #1 Buck 16 pellet and one with slugs. That is a serious weapon with firepower.

C0untZer0 · June 29, 2011, 09:40 PM

Mossberg 930 SPX gives you 8 rounds - 9 rounds if you ghost load and according to most people it is a very reliable shotgun.

leathermarshmallow · June 29, 2011, 11:11 PM

I recently did some trading for a Saiga 12. It has been very reliable for me so far. It has not been "converted". It does however have enough US parts to meet the 922 stupidity...including the US mags. It is a fun gun to shoot. I have some 10 round mags for it, but if I am grabbing something for home defense, it will be my winchester 1300.

TylerD45ACP · June 30, 2011, 02:00 PM

I hear you pumps wont fail your using your hand to eject rounds. The 1300 Defender is supposed to be nice too I never fired one but heard that.

Gym · July 5, 2011, 01:52 PM

Or the 1100 tac 4, FN, or Bennelli. I can't see spending over a thousand on a poorlly machined stamped out gun that seldom works as it is supposed to, and requires work to function at any level of reliability.

SteelChickenShooter · July 5, 2011, 05:15 PM

I had a Saiga 12 with a tactical rail and illumination. The light easily popped on and off for different roles. I loved it. Home defense or in the woods for deer. My buddy says I'm an idiot to sell it. He loved it. 100% reliably shot every manner of load, but the gas valve did need to be set correctly. If wrong then a shell may not cycle right. There are many YouTube videos about this gun and another thing: I get Front Sight magazine and there are several articles saying how popular this shotgun is in competitions. The drum takes some fine filing to get it right. There are on line instructions to get the proper fit and it's way easy to blow it if you goof up with too many passes of the file. Mine shot a slug 3 inches right at 50 yards and the rear sight was impossible to drift over the 30 or so thousandth's required. If I ever did see a deer with it, I'd just hold a little left. If I could afford it, I'd buy that same gun in a heartbeat.

rottieman33 · July 5, 2011, 05:23 PM

Quote:

I can't see spending over a thousand

Saw one last week for $625. And I have never done any modifications to make my Saiga 12 to get it to work. Only thing I changed was the trigger. The puck, gas plug and gas ports are all stock.

SteelChickenShooter · July 5, 2011, 05:30 PM

I wanted a Mossberg 930 Tactical and waited a long time. During that wait I found many articles about problems. That directed my attention to the CZ model 712 Utility that was written up in Gun Tests Magazine, Sept 2009. Volume XXI No. 9. At the time I was in my local shop, and there was a guy in there returning the Mossberg for a problem to fix. Same exact thing I read about. I ordered the CZ instead and ended up with a much better gun and lower cost.

Recoiljunky · July 5, 2011, 05:36 PM

I got mine back when they costed 400 and I would not get it for homedefense becaus of it verry long action making it to big to wield around rooms. IMHO these guns only provide a tacticool factor and not any tactical

Technosavant · July 5, 2011, 06:48 PM

Quote:

The drum takes some fine filing to get it right.

I don't know if *ALL* magazines need to be fit to the gun, but I know that the OEM Izhmash ones require that. The one that comes with it is ready to go, but if you buy extras, you will need to file down the tab for the mag catch so it will latch into place. The first time I did that I was concerned about getting it right, then I figured out what the deal was and it was a piece of cake.

SteelChickenShooter · July 5, 2011, 09:23 PM

My Saiga 12 sold for a ballpark $475. Might have been stupid to sell, but I bought it when employed and the money was coming in, and sold it when not working and the bills kept coming. I do wonder if some of the negative posts about this gun are based on actual experience? I understand about stamped metal parts. This bugger is a B*I*teeseeache. And nobody breaking into a home would want to be downstream.

Technosavant · July 7, 2011, 08:25 PM

Quote:

I do wonder if some of the negative posts about this gun are based on actual experience?

Mine are.

It's a fun gun, and certainly a capable gun (would definitely be devastating on the receiving end), but I trust my 870 Tactical more than I do my S12.

TylerD45ACP · July 8, 2011, 12:28 AM

Thats what I wanted to hear. You would rather take the pump , I agree, for defense a pump is probably best.

TIGERARMS · July 8, 2011, 07:28 PM

Are you sure you don't want one?

Para Cassatt · July 9, 2011, 12:18 AM

If you are planning on converting one to use the high cap mags you should plan on changing enough import parts from the list to be on the safe side. Better yet, email the ATF and get something in writing. My recent correspondence with the EPS Directorate showed a different list than that shown on the S12 forum. The count given to me included the trunnion and sear bringing the count up to 15 including the mag components. There were 5 items stated as "does not contain": barrel extension, muzzle attachment, operating rod, trigger housing and pistol grip from the ATF list.

July 5, 2011, 05:30 PM	#18
SteelChickenShooter Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Posts: 863	Mossberg Rebuttal I wanted a Mossberg 930 Tactical and waited a long time. During that wait I found many articles about problems. That directed my attention to the CZ model 712 Utility that was written up in Gun Tests Magazine, Sept 2009. Volume XXI No. 9. At the time I was in my local shop, and there was a guy in there returning the Mossberg for a problem to fix. Same exact thing I read about. I ordered the CZ instead and ended up with a much better gun and lower cost.

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June 28, 2011, 10:38 PM	#1
TylerD45ACP Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2010 Posts: 1,654	Saiga 12 I am really interested in this shotgun. It seems like an excellent weapon to have maybe for home defense. I just wanted to hear any input from owners of the gun. I like how its based on the AK design and magazine fed. How does the 20 round drum work? Thanks for any input.

June 28, 2011, 10:41 PM	#2
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Do you live near a graveyard or something? I don't think you'll need more than 19 shells for home defense but I guess that 20th round can't hurt, better safe than sorry eh?

June 29, 2011, 12:07 AM	#3
TylerD45ACP Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2010 Posts: 1,654	No I dont need it just curious about it. I like the shotgun and think its cool. I would have some fun with it you know.

June 29, 2011, 12:56 AM	#4
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,763	Unless you want to take the time and $$$ to make it reliable enough for self-defense, I think your idea about having fun with it is a good one. For less $$$ a 930 SPX would be more reliable out of the box for self-defense and cost less $$$ than one you dump a lot of $$$ into.

June 29, 2011, 10:10 AM	#5
erwos Member Join Date: April 8, 2009 Posts: 93	jmortimer nailed it. The Saiga 12 is an amazing shotgun, but it usually has serious reliability issues out of the box - badly-drilled holes not providing enough gas to cycle the gun, a rod that's more fragile than it should be, etc. You can fix those, but you're going to spend non-trivial time and money doing so. You're better off with a 930 SPX for home defense.

June 29, 2011, 12:27 PM	#6
Technosavant Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2007 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 4,040	It's not a bad gun, but not as awesome for defense as you'd think. The receiver is LOOONG, so the thing itself is unwieldy in tight confines. While quality control is, well, Russian, the good news is that if the gas ports are done reasonably correctly (at least 3), you shouldn't have any problems. Vodka specials (2 or fewer gas ports)) are far from uncommon, so don't buy sight unseen; you want to pull the gas valve and have a look on the specific one you're looking at. Conversion to a standard AK-like pistol grip and stock requires moving the fire control group forward, and that's a piece of cake. You will need to make sure you break it in with heavy loads; these guns don't like being babied with light loads. Mine still doesn't feed all that well; every now and then a shell will nose-up into the top of the chamber, jamming up the works. It just isn't as reliable a feeding mechanism as you'd find in a more traditional tube fed semiauto. Mag changes aren't as quick and easy as you'd think. Rather cumbersome, in fact. A magwell can fix this, but that's something else to buy and install. Basically, the reason to use a S12 for defense is to be using a S12 for defense. If you want a quality defensive semiauto, then there's other options out there that will work better for less money with a greater chance of working right out of the box.

June 29, 2011, 01:30 PM	#7
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	One serious thing to consider if you are using this for HD is that a loaded magazine left that way for a time will distort the round at the top, making it impossible to feed - thus resulting in a jam

June 29, 2011, 02:33 PM	#8
TylerD45ACP Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2010 Posts: 1,654	Thanks for all the information it has been helpful. I will look in to alternates I was just curious about it, I like the Benelli M4 alot too.

June 29, 2011, 07:52 PM	#9
MC 1911 Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 372	Check out the MKA 1919. Its an AR style 12 gauge. Not perfect but very nice for the $. Still new so aftermarket parts are not available but Tromix has some things in the works from what I've seen on the net.

June 29, 2011, 08:36 PM	#10
rottieman33 Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2009 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 223	I own a Saiga 12 never had any problems with it out of the box been a great gun. And the MD20 20 round drum is fun I got 2 of the drums and 4 10 round mags. This site will tell you everything you want to know about the gun and the people on the site are helpful. http://forum.saiga-12.com

June 29, 2011, 09:20 PM	#11
TylerD45ACP Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2010 Posts: 1,654	That Saiga is sweet. It looks really nice. The idea of the gun is just very cool a lot of firepower. A 20 rd Drum of say 2 3/4" 00 Buck 12 pellet and 4 10 round mags 2 with 00 Buck 12 pellet one with #1 Buck 16 pellet and one with slugs. That is a serious weapon with firepower.

June 29, 2011, 09:40 PM	#12
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Mossberg 930 SPX gives you 8 rounds - 9 rounds if you ghost load and according to most people it is a very reliable shotgun.

June 29, 2011, 11:11 PM	#13
leathermarshmallow Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2010 Location: WEST VIRGINIA Posts: 108	I recently did some trading for a Saiga 12. It has been very reliable for me so far. It has not been "converted". It does however have enough US parts to meet the 922 stupidity...including the US mags. It is a fun gun to shoot. I have some 10 round mags for it, but if I am grabbing something for home defense, it will be my winchester 1300.

June 30, 2011, 02:00 PM	#14
TylerD45ACP Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2010 Posts: 1,654	I hear you pumps wont fail your using your hand to eject rounds. The 1300 Defender is supposed to be nice too I never fired one but heard that.

July 5, 2011, 01:52 PM	#15
Gym Member Join Date: January 19, 2008 Posts: 18	Or the 1100 tac 4, FN, or Bennelli. I can't see spending over a thousand on a poorlly machined stamped out gun that seldom works as it is supposed to, and requires work to function at any level of reliability.

July 5, 2011, 05:15 PM	#16
SteelChickenShooter Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Posts: 863	I had a Saiga 12 with a tactical rail and illumination. The light easily popped on and off for different roles. I loved it. Home defense or in the woods for deer. My buddy says I'm an idiot to sell it. He loved it. 100% reliably shot every manner of load, but the gas valve did need to be set correctly. If wrong then a shell may not cycle right. There are many YouTube videos about this gun and another thing: I get Front Sight magazine and there are several articles saying how popular this shotgun is in competitions. The drum takes some fine filing to get it right. There are on line instructions to get the proper fit and it's way easy to blow it if you goof up with too many passes of the file. Mine shot a slug 3 inches right at 50 yards and the rear sight was impossible to drift over the 30 or so thousandth's required. If I ever did see a deer with it, I'd just hold a little left. If I could afford it, I'd buy that same gun in a heartbeat.

July 5, 2011, 05:36 PM	#19
Recoiljunky Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2011 Location: Jupiter, florida Posts: 233	I got mine back when they costed 400 and I would not get it for homedefense becaus of it verry long action making it to big to wield around rooms. IMHO these guns only provide a tacticool factor and not any tactical

July 5, 2011, 09:23 PM	#21
SteelChickenShooter Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Posts: 863	My Saiga 12 sold for a ballpark $475. Might have been stupid to sell, but I bought it when employed and the money was coming in, and sold it when not working and the bills kept coming. I do wonder if some of the negative posts about this gun are based on actual experience? I understand about stamped metal parts. This bugger is a BIteeseeache. And nobody breaking into a home would want to be downstream.

July 8, 2011, 12:28 AM	#23
TylerD45ACP Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2010 Posts: 1,654	Thats what I wanted to hear. You would rather take the pump , I agree, for defense a pump is probably best.

July 9, 2011, 12:18 AM	#25
Para Cassatt Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2010 Location: South Carolina Posts: 117	If you are planning on converting one to use the high cap mags you should plan on changing enough import parts from the list to be on the safe side. Better yet, email the ATF and get something in writing. My recent correspondence with the EPS Directorate showed a different list than that shown on the S12 forum. The count given to me included the trunnion and sear bringing the count up to 15 including the mag components. There were 5 items stated as "does not contain": barrel extension, muzzle attachment, operating rod, trigger housing and pistol grip from the ATF list.