Rounds passing through BG

BillX · September 10, 2000, 06:47 AM

In an associated thread, We were discussing the use of a shotgun versus a rifle in a combat, social disturbance situation. The drawback of a rifle in many opinions is that the round will pass through the BG and hit an innocent. Does anyone have a documented case of this happening? I have heard the "it can happen" but never "it has happened". So, Except for "Quigley Down Under" when has it happened? I have read about a client shooting a Cape Buffalo off of the PH and the bullet passing through the Buff and taking off most of the guys foot but that was a solid .375 H&H.

I have hard enought time hitting the things I am trying to hit let alone the things I'm not.

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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." H.L. Mencken

RHarris · September 10, 2000, 07:20 AM

I too have pondered this. I have wondered how likely stray bullets through walls are to actually hit and kill someone. Seems to me the risk of a bystander is very low and the benefit of stopping a BG is very high. A bystander being shot under such circumstances would be possible, but extremely improbable. Furthermore, the more things the bullet passes through, eg. the BG, the wall, window, etc, and the farther it travels, the less energy it will have to do harm even in the unlikely event of striking someone. Even if someone was to be hit by a stray, he would still have to be struck in a vital area.

Dave McC · September 10, 2000, 07:38 AM

I had to critique a prison riot response after a riot in Ohio left a couple of inmates and one CO dead. Note was made that a CO was shot by a round that went through at least one inmate first, a .223, I believe.

The late and lamented Sgt Angel Grier, a salty CO from the Md system, stopped an escape attempt and attempted takeover of Patuxent Institution by shooting 3 perps with two rounds. Weapon was an M-1 Carbine.

Dave R · September 11, 2000, 04:26 PM

Read an article, I _believe_ in the current "Handguns" magazine, that talks about NYPD's decision to switch from FMJ to HP in their pistols. The decision was driven by two (?) cases is which an innocent was seriously injured by a round that passed through the perp. So NYPD switched to HPs not for more stopping power, but for less penetration, according to the article.

vanfunk · September 12, 2000, 07:28 AM

An article in Handgunner magazine last year (July?) explored the NYPD situation, citing 17 actual shootings in which the 9mm FMJ rounds penetrated the suspect and injured or killed bystanders. An obscure reference to be sure, but Erwin Rommel accounted his WW1 experiences with the 9mm by praising its capacity for penetration. He indicated that it was not unusual to see through-and-through penetation of 2 soldiers, with the bullet wounding the third, when a column was fired upon at close range. FMJ rifle bullets will certainly penetrate well. I guess you just have to do what is possible to minimize the risk to others. I have no doubt that rifle bullets have the potential to do serious harm even after penetating animate or inanimate objects. I have also witnessed the penetating capabilities of 12 gauge OO buck fired at the driver's door of a 1990 Oldsmobile Cutlass at 25 feet- right through both sides. I'm not sure if that result is typical, but it certainly was illustrative. But I digress...
In areas where there is alot of sporadic, uncontrolled gunfire, stray bullets kill thousands each year. The statistics are marred by reporting techniques, but stray bullets are a public health menace in many Central and South American Countries, the Middle East, and several African Nations. It really just depends on how many people are "around".

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semper ubi sub ubi

M1911 · September 12, 2000, 07:48 AM

Vanfunk: That is typical, but not just of 00 buck. At LFI-2, Ayoob showed us a training video called Use of Cover, produced by the LA County Sheriff's Dept. It was about cover vs. concealment. They did a number of tests of the sorts of objects that you might use for concealment. Car doors did not provide effective cover even against small caliber pistol rounds. The rear half of the car also did not provide effective cover. Then engine and wheels are the only part of the car that provided effective cover.

They also put together a target frame made up of 10 interior walls. Their testing found the following penetration:

most handguns: 7-8 walls
.22: 4 walls
7.62x39: 10 walls
.45: 8 walls
#4 buck 6 walls

It wasn't clear to me what rounds were used in the test of a .45 and "most handguns".

M1911

Solitar · September 12, 2000, 12:28 PM

Within the last few months there was a post about a shooting in an apartment building where each floor is a duplicate of the others. Perp is beating on this fellow's door, tenant looks through peephole and sees the guy has a baseball bat. Tenant backs off from door and prepares to shoot if needed. Door is kicked in. Tenant shoots perp (with .357mag?). Bullet goes through perp and kills kid across the hall who was watching the action through his peep hole.

September 10, 2000, 06:47 AM	#1
BillX Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2000 Location: Boilermaker Country, Indiana Posts: 131	In an associated thread, We were discussing the use of a shotgun versus a rifle in a combat, social disturbance situation. The drawback of a rifle in many opinions is that the round will pass through the BG and hit an innocent. Does anyone have a documented case of this happening? I have heard the "it can happen" but never "it has happened". So, Except for "Quigley Down Under" when has it happened? I have read about a client shooting a Cape Buffalo off of the PH and the bullet passing through the Buff and taking off most of the guys foot but that was a solid .375 H&H. I have hard enought time hitting the things I am trying to hit let alone the things I'm not. ------------------ "Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." H.L. Mencken

September 10, 2000, 07:20 AM	#2
RHarris Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2000 Posts: 416	I too have pondered this. I have wondered how likely stray bullets through walls are to actually hit and kill someone. Seems to me the risk of a bystander is very low and the benefit of stopping a BG is very high. A bystander being shot under such circumstances would be possible, but extremely improbable. Furthermore, the more things the bullet passes through, eg. the BG, the wall, window, etc, and the farther it travels, the less energy it will have to do harm even in the unlikely event of striking someone. Even if someone was to be hit by a stray, he would still have to be struck in a vital area.

September 10, 2000, 07:38 AM	#3
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	I had to critique a prison riot response after a riot in Ohio left a couple of inmates and one CO dead. Note was made that a CO was shot by a round that went through at least one inmate first, a .223, I believe. The late and lamented Sgt Angel Grier, a salty CO from the Md system, stopped an escape attempt and attempted takeover of Patuxent Institution by shooting 3 perps with two rounds. Weapon was an M-1 Carbine.

September 11, 2000, 04:26 PM	#4
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 6,073	Read an article, I _believe_ in the current "Handguns" magazine, that talks about NYPD's decision to switch from FMJ to HP in their pistols. The decision was driven by two (?) cases is which an innocent was seriously injured by a round that passed through the perp. So NYPD switched to HPs not for more stopping power, but for less penetration, according to the article.

September 12, 2000, 07:28 AM	#5
vanfunk Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 1999 Posts: 472	An article in Handgunner magazine last year (July?) explored the NYPD situation, citing 17 actual shootings in which the 9mm FMJ rounds penetrated the suspect and injured or killed bystanders. An obscure reference to be sure, but Erwin Rommel accounted his WW1 experiences with the 9mm by praising its capacity for penetration. He indicated that it was not unusual to see through-and-through penetation of 2 soldiers, with the bullet wounding the third, when a column was fired upon at close range. FMJ rifle bullets will certainly penetrate well. I guess you just have to do what is possible to minimize the risk to others. I have no doubt that rifle bullets have the potential to do serious harm even after penetating animate or inanimate objects. I have also witnessed the penetating capabilities of 12 gauge OO buck fired at the driver's door of a 1990 Oldsmobile Cutlass at 25 feet- right through both sides. I'm not sure if that result is typical, but it certainly was illustrative. But I digress... In areas where there is alot of sporadic, uncontrolled gunfire, stray bullets kill thousands each year. The statistics are marred by reporting techniques, but stray bullets are a public health menace in many Central and South American Countries, the Middle East, and several African Nations. It really just depends on how many people are "around". ------------------ semper ubi sub ubi

September 12, 2000, 07:48 AM	#6
M1911 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2000 Posts: 4,055	Vanfunk: That is typical, but not just of 00 buck. At LFI-2, Ayoob showed us a training video called Use of Cover, produced by the LA County Sheriff's Dept. It was about cover vs. concealment. They did a number of tests of the sorts of objects that you might use for concealment. Car doors did not provide effective cover even against small caliber pistol rounds. The rear half of the car also did not provide effective cover. Then engine and wheels are the only part of the car that provided effective cover. They also put together a target frame made up of 10 interior walls. Their testing found the following penetration: most handguns: 7-8 walls .22: 4 walls 7.62x39: 10 walls .45: 8 walls #4 buck 6 walls It wasn't clear to me what rounds were used in the test of a .45 and "most handguns". M1911

September 12, 2000, 12:28 PM	#7
Solitar Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2000 Location: Solitary Posts: 717	Within the last few months there was a post about a shooting in an apartment building where each floor is a duplicate of the others. Perp is beating on this fellow's door, tenant looks through peephole and sees the guy has a baseball bat. Tenant backs off from door and prepares to shoot if needed. Door is kicked in. Tenant shoots perp (with .357mag?). Bullet goes through perp and kills kid across the hall who was watching the action through his peep hole.