Question on M4 stock weld

Striker1 · August 11, 2004, 08:28 PM

Professional trainers,

Maybe you could help me out? My guys are having trouble keeping the stock situated in their shoulders when rapidly mounting and firing the M4. Seems the shoulder strtaps from the LBE get in the way. Looking for good suggestions.

Thanks

45 Fu · August 11, 2004, 09:13 PM

Two words: skateboard tape. If the problem is the butt not getting a good hold due to the LBE strap this should help.

How fast are they having to aquire their sight picture? Are we talking CQB or targets at 100 meters (or more)?

This is not intended as a slam, but this seems like a training issue that should have been addressed in basic (if you're not talking about basic). Recoil is almost non-existent so it can't be beating them up shooting over an LBE strap.

Striker1 · August 11, 2004, 09:20 PM

Thanks for the reply,

It's a new course of fire incorporating firing at the typical 10" vital zone from 25M starting from thr ready position (muzzle down at 45deg). We are also transitioning to the M4. Basic was totally different using th M16A2.

chiz45 · August 11, 2004, 11:13 PM

Striker, because you have the luxury of adjusting the stock length, i'd take the stock in to the 2nd to the last notch to being fully closed. This would be the position you'd use when wearing armor. The shorter the stock/LOP, the easier to tuck it in, and control.

Striker1 · August 12, 2004, 02:36 PM

Really appreciate all the info,

Unfortunately things being the way they are Regs prevent modifications to weapons so we may have to find a way to work it without add-on's. We are using the SPEAR ELCS and the shoulder straps are pretty fat. As Erick said, pushing the harness out of the way works for the range but is a no-go for most real world applications.

chiz45 · August 14, 2004, 08:33 AM

i wonder if this rubber butt pad would be considered an 'add-on:'

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=25&t=171960

Jeff Gonzales · August 17, 2004, 06:28 PM

OK,

Here what I would suggestion...get into the gym.

Just kidding, but seriously this is a problem that tends to go away when folks can pull the weapon system back into their shoulder pocket. What I find is that focusing more at pulling the weapon into the body tends to help keep the weapon system against the body.

Here are some other things to consider. Whenever possible start with the toe of the buttstocked staged in the shoulder pocket and then pivot into the pocket and pull back.

Next, look at placing the toe lower in the pocket. This will provide more surface area contact and require the shooter to lower their head.

Lastly, I doubt anyone is keeping you from modifying your kit. You can look at adding the Assualt Shoulder Pad, which is a piece of nylon with tacky rubber on it that velcros onto your armor. It works great and I really like them for maritime work when things are really slippery.

Get a hold of a new Diamondback Tactical catalog and look on page #46. Good luck.

Erick, thanks for the kind words and stay safe. Will pass you grid coordinates to my new position down the road so stay in touch.

Later,

Striker1 · August 19, 2004, 12:40 PM

Jeff,

Thanks for the advice

Some units are more concerned with being "uniform" and don't allow personal modification or any mods without approval of higher authority as I'm sure you know. Only the SOCOM types can get away with that. In order to get stuff approved we have to trounce through the "red Tape" which makes for a headache sometimes. That's why I wanted to know how to do it with just the issue equipment. Why they even have a specific layout for our web gear...pictures and all! In the name of standardization! That's what I have to work within and that's why I don't allow my instructors to wear anything except what the troops have issued.

We have a new course of fire and it is better than the old, but when I attended, the instructors said "just shoot as you would from the old style standing position" so as you can see, we have a long way to go

Jeff Gonzales · August 19, 2004, 01:30 PM

Striker,

I feel for you and understand what you are going through. My first recommendation of bringing more focus to pulling straight back into the shoulder pocket would be the call of the day. No gear modifications, just a training issue. I tend to see that most issues are addressed through hardware solutions when software solutions work better. The flip side is that will take training and I know how hard it can be to deal with that issue as well. About the only other suggestion would be the grip tape mentioned earlier. It seems to be the best alternative given the circumstances.

If there is anything else I can do for you, don't hesitate to contact me directly. Take care and stay safe.

Later,

Texian Pistolero · August 19, 2004, 02:01 PM

As every bird hunter knows, you push the gun all the way before you pull it into the shoulder. This eliminates snags on all the junk your wearing.

I'll bet a lot of rifle marksmanship training is done W/O lbe on.

Ultimately, I think every soldier will just have to work this out on his own.

CarlosDJackal · August 24, 2004, 04:13 PM

Have any of you guys looked into teh "Duostock" (http://www.duostock.com/indexx.html)? It may just be the answer you were looking for.

Good luck!!

August 11, 2004, 08:28 PM	#1
Striker1 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2004 Location: TX Posts: 710	Question on M4 stock weld Professional trainers, Maybe you could help me out? My guys are having trouble keeping the stock situated in their shoulders when rapidly mounting and firing the M4. Seems the shoulder strtaps from the LBE get in the way. Looking for good suggestions. Thanks

August 17, 2004, 06:28 PM	#7
Jeff Gonzales Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 126	Tough deal OK, Here what I would suggestion...get into the gym. Just kidding, but seriously this is a problem that tends to go away when folks can pull the weapon system back into their shoulder pocket. What I find is that focusing more at pulling the weapon into the body tends to help keep the weapon system against the body. Here are some other things to consider. Whenever possible start with the toe of the buttstocked staged in the shoulder pocket and then pivot into the pocket and pull back. Next, look at placing the toe lower in the pocket. This will provide more surface area contact and require the shooter to lower their head. Lastly, I doubt anyone is keeping you from modifying your kit. You can look at adding the Assualt Shoulder Pad, which is a piece of nylon with tacky rubber on it that velcros onto your armor. It works great and I really like them for maritime work when things are really slippery. Get a hold of a new Diamondback Tactical catalog and look on page #46. Good luck. Erick, thanks for the kind words and stay safe. Will pass you grid coordinates to my new position down the road so stay in touch. Later, __________________ Jeff Gonzales Director of Training Trident Concepts, LLC.

August 19, 2004, 01:30 PM	#9
Jeff Gonzales Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 126	totally understand Striker, I feel for you and understand what you are going through. My first recommendation of bringing more focus to pulling straight back into the shoulder pocket would be the call of the day. No gear modifications, just a training issue. I tend to see that most issues are addressed through hardware solutions when software solutions work better. The flip side is that will take training and I know how hard it can be to deal with that issue as well. About the only other suggestion would be the grip tape mentioned earlier. It seems to be the best alternative given the circumstances. If there is anything else I can do for you, don't hesitate to contact me directly. Take care and stay safe. Later, __________________ Jeff Gonzales Director of Training Trident Concepts, LLC.

August 11, 2004, 09:13 PM	#2
45 Fu Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 422	Two words: skateboard tape. If the problem is the butt not getting a good hold due to the LBE strap this should help. How fast are they having to aquire their sight picture? Are we talking CQB or targets at 100 meters (or more)? This is not intended as a slam, but this seems like a training issue that should have been addressed in basic (if you're not talking about basic). Recoil is almost non-existent so it can't be beating them up shooting over an LBE strap.

August 11, 2004, 09:20 PM	#3
Striker1 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2004 Location: TX Posts: 710	Thanks for the reply, It's a new course of fire incorporating firing at the typical 10" vital zone from 25M starting from thr ready position (muzzle down at 45deg). We are also transitioning to the M4. Basic was totally different using th M16A2.

August 11, 2004, 11:13 PM	#4
chiz45 Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2000 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 197	Striker, because you have the luxury of adjusting the stock length, i'd take the stock in to the 2nd to the last notch to being fully closed. This would be the position you'd use when wearing armor. The shorter the stock/LOP, the easier to tuck it in, and control. Last edited by chiz45; August 14, 2004 at 08:32 AM.

August 12, 2004, 02:36 PM	#5
Striker1 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2004 Location: TX Posts: 710	Really appreciate all the info, Unfortunately things being the way they are Regs prevent modifications to weapons so we may have to find a way to work it without add-on's. We are using the SPEAR ELCS and the shoulder straps are pretty fat. As Erick said, pushing the harness out of the way works for the range but is a no-go for most real world applications.

August 14, 2004, 08:33 AM	#6
chiz45 Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2000 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 197	i wonder if this rubber butt pad would be considered an 'add-on:' http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=25&t=171960

August 19, 2004, 12:40 PM	#8
Striker1 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2004 Location: TX Posts: 710	Jeff, Thanks for the advice Some units are more concerned with being "uniform" and don't allow personal modification or any mods without approval of higher authority as I'm sure you know. Only the SOCOM types can get away with that. In order to get stuff approved we have to trounce through the "red Tape" which makes for a headache sometimes. That's why I wanted to know how to do it with just the issue equipment. Why they even have a specific layout for our web gear...pictures and all! In the name of standardization! That's what I have to work within and that's why I don't allow my instructors to wear anything except what the troops have issued. We have a new course of fire and it is better than the old, but when I attended, the instructors said "just shoot as you would from the old style standing position" so as you can see, we have a long way to go

August 19, 2004, 02:01 PM	#10
Texian Pistolero Member Join Date: June 29, 2004 Posts: 22	As every bird hunter knows, you push the gun all the way before you pull it into the shoulder. This eliminates snags on all the junk your wearing. I'll bet a lot of rifle marksmanship training is done W/O lbe on. Ultimately, I think every soldier will just have to work this out on his own.

August 24, 2004, 04:13 PM	#11
CarlosDJackal Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2004 Location: Central Virginia Posts: 109	Have any of you guys looked into teh "Duostock" (http://www.duostock.com/indexx.html)? It may just be the answer you were looking for. Good luck!!