October 16, 2012, 01:15 PM | #51 | |
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October 16, 2012, 01:15 PM | #52 | |
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Fast and slow are somewhat relative. Many good shooters using the modern technique can do the Dozier Drill in 3 seconds. The Dozier Drill consist of starting with the shooter facing away from 5 Pepper Poppers which are 5 yards away. On a random signal the shooter must turn and knock down all 5 targets. Time starts on the signal and ends on the last shot. Three (3) seconds to turn, draw, and fire 5 aimed shots. Part time is 5 seconds. Three seconds is fast, to me. Bob consider how long it took you to gain the skill you have now with a single action handgun. I am guessing you have practiced for at least one hundred hours? If you put in a couple of dozen hours trying a different technique you could begin to see whether it has some value for you. I admit I'll never approach the speed of Bob Munden who is an incredible shot with a single action handgun. I think he gets off two shots in under 0.50 seconds. But he does not used a rig for concealed carry.
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October 16, 2012, 01:40 PM | #53 | |
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Push aside the gun, draw your own and take a shot? Good luck with that Dirty Harry. Maybe you should have kept your head on a swivel and avoided the entire scenario in the first place. This whole thread is rather entertaining. |
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October 16, 2012, 01:51 PM | #54 |
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Are these novice or experienced shooters?
A novice shooter will need to be taught all the fundamentals before speed can be safely achieved. Whenever I take on a new drill, I do it slowly and methodically at first. Once I get the fundamental down, I can work on increasing the speed of the drill.
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October 16, 2012, 02:38 PM | #55 |
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I think there's a difference between common sense and "reason."
A person can sit and ponder a problem, in this case firearms related, and come up with a reasonable solution. In a perfect world, it works just fine. It is perfect at the pistol range, it works well in competition and it brings home the ribbons, the trophies and praise from well-wishers. But it's not a perfect world and the only thing that's wrong here is that in the real world, it lacks common sense. People frequently make posts about how an automatic pistol must absolutely, positively and without fail, always be carried with the chamber loaded. Why? Because you are (evidently) not expected to have the use of your other hand just when you need it to charge your pistol. Yet, woe unto you if you dare to attempt shooting with just one hand, for all the reasons offered in this and other threads. After all, the target is only eight inches wide, the width of a typical five years old waist level. Likewise, all of those comments about fast draw, you know, for the walk and draw that all armed encounters begin with, or so I am led to believe. Actually, not many descriptions that I've read sound too unreasonable but they will all usually be accompanied by more than a few dry runs, typically with a few fumbles. Don't say you never dropped a gun in practice or crashed a few gears learning to use a manual gearbox. I did find out, though, that I could learn to drive a right hand drive, six speed manual gearbox, while driving on the left hand side of the drive way in about a half-mile. Nothing to it. Of course, I didn't have to double-clutch and I did on the vehicle I drove for four years. Do you realize that people have gone into combat with little more than a couple of days of firearms training and practice? I think you should generally accept that you won't be a trick shot, though no doubt many trick shooters read this forum, but at the same time, it isn't an impossible thing to learn, fast and smooth shooting, even with one hand. I, too, believe you may only have one hand available when the time comes. Now if I just figure out how to make sure it will always be my right hand! One more thing: don't try holding speedloaders in your mouth.
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October 16, 2012, 02:56 PM | #56 | ||
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I've yet to hear anyone really claim that ONLY two-handed shooting is effective, or the only skill ever required. It's certainly not a generally accepted notion. How could it be? A moments reflection will reveal that in some cases it would be the only thing possible. As such it appears to be a strawman argument, or perhaps based upon isolated incidents of those lacking suitable common sense. Quote:
Last edited by zombietactics; October 16, 2012 at 03:06 PM. |
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October 16, 2012, 03:11 PM | #57 | |
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October 16, 2012, 03:15 PM | #58 |
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Thank you for your kind remarks. I was actually making reference to many points often brought up in this forum, though not necessarily or directly in this forum. Yet people do seem to be quite dogmatic about many of those points. I am even surprised at the frequent references to the unreliability of automatic pistols here generally. I hope I am not at grave risk by only owning pistols and no longer any revolvers. Moreover, I have not suggested that carrying chamber empty is either a good or bad idea. There are good reasons for either method. They, and just about every other point, has been covered here time and again.
And speaking of isolated incidents, virtually all incidents in which a non-law enforcement individual is engaged in the use of a firearm in self-defense is pretty much an isolated incident, is it not? I realize that might be a major point of contention and will separate the believers from the true believers.
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October 16, 2012, 03:40 PM | #59 | |||
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The numbers are such that all such incidents are "isolated incidents", when viewed against the backdrop reality that the vast majority will never experience them. That holds true true for LE as well as "mere citizens", BTW. It also holds trued for almost every terrorist incident, automobile accident, railroad disaster or outbreak of disease. Against the backdrop of all such incidents, patterns tend to emerge. Viewed as such, they are less isolated and more open to both qualitative and quantitative analysis. If the underlying assumption is "it will never happen to me" or perhaps some entirely imaginary notion of what could happen, that invariably leads to a different set of conclusions than "If it happens to me, how best can I be prepared given the likely range of variables?" Last edited by zombietactics; October 16, 2012 at 03:45 PM. |
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October 16, 2012, 03:54 PM | #60 |
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Wow. 3 pages and still going, even though it was explained by the 5th post. Wow. Some of you guys really need to take a class or at the very least watch some training videos.
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October 16, 2012, 04:22 PM | #61 | |
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October 16, 2012, 04:31 PM | #62 | |
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October 16, 2012, 04:53 PM | #63 | |
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October 16, 2012, 05:37 PM | #64 |
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A friend's daughter came home from her first day training at McDonald's and stated that she was going to make suggestions to improve McDonald's methods.
This thread reminds me of that.
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October 16, 2012, 07:54 PM | #65 | ||||||
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If your message has something to do with the fact that sometimes people think up what they think is a good idea, and that idea works in come contexts but not in others, that's certainly not a new or novel insight. If you're claiming that somehow the difference is what you call common sense, how about providing some evidence? Quote:
There have been numerous threads here in which the importance of being able to shoot one-handed, either dominant hand only or non-dominant hand only, has been pointed out. One-handed shooting is also commonly included in good defensive pistol training. But it has also been demonstrated that if one knows what he is doing and has the opportunity to use it, a proper two handed grip facilitates recoil management and will allow quicker, accurate follow-up shots. Quote:
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October 16, 2012, 09:02 PM | #66 |
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Every good trainer I have trained with has told me that what they were about to teach me was "a way" not "the way" and that I should take from them what worked for me and compare it to what I know now and learn in the future and keep what works. Every good trainer I have ever trained with was also a professional student, never too proud to learn from another.
That said, none of them ever taught me to walk around with a preconceived idea of what the fight of my life would be, how it would unfold, and how a cowboy gun would save the day just as I imagined it would without ever once having been to a professional tactical training class. Imagine that. |
October 17, 2012, 01:42 PM | #67 |
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Seems to me the modern pistol technique is so widely accepted as the "industry standard" that it would be difficult for anyone who's been shooting handguns for any appreciable length of time to be unaware of it.
I couldn't help but think that the OP was just pulling everyone's chain and having a good chuckle at our expense. -Stan- |
October 18, 2012, 06:56 AM | #68 |
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I've had limited exposure to self-defense classes, but I have qualified several times with a handgun for the military**.
In those cases, we were taught a similar method of draw (Strong side to chest and then out to target). When I was taught, I was told that one of the primary reasons we were learning to draw like that was that it actually provides three areas to shoot from. As soon as it clears the holster, the barrel (and your arm) are turned parallel to the ground. If the BG is closing in, you can shoot from that position with relative stability (maybe not awesome accuracy without practice, but relative stability). When you bring the weapon to your chest, now supported by your off-hand, you can still shoot from that position. Maybe not comfortably, but you know what I'm getting at. Then, if the target is still a "safe" enough distance, you bring the weapon out into a good isosceles stance. As far as the one-handed shooting, I do that routinely for practice, both strong- and off- hand, for some of the reasons stated above. God forbid I have someone with me that I need to shield, or I've been injured myself, I'm holding off another BG, etc. **I'm a reservist, so I dont get nearly the training with a handgun I'm sure the active guys do/did, so hopefully someone else can chime in. I do alot of training on my own with my own handguns and AR-15, so I'm sure not everything I do is "proper", as it were. Personally I wish the reservists would do much more shooting that we currently do... |
October 18, 2012, 10:39 AM | #69 | |
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Some people survive or die by pure luck. I don't know how to control that. But you'll find that as a general rule that your survival rate will be inversely proportional to the amount of training and practice you've had. |
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October 18, 2012, 11:37 AM | #70 |
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Inversely proportional?
The point of my comment was that it was not always possible for some to receive more than the training they did receive, chiefly because there was not enough time. It was hardly the ideal but other things also matter. One will never be totally prepared and one will never be at the peak of perfection. That does not mean, however, than you can't be "in good training," physical limitations notwithstanding. Some training programs are based on the requirement to train people quickly, others more to take advantage of fewer limitations of time and expense. But there are always some limits.
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October 18, 2012, 01:28 PM | #71 | |
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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October 18, 2012, 01:33 PM | #72 |
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Because non-military people may not have unlimited resources either. Your resources may vary.
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October 18, 2012, 01:50 PM | #73 | |
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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October 18, 2012, 01:52 PM | #74 |
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My resources are limited, as are most peoples ...... some more than others.
I may not be able to go to Gunsite or Thunder Ranch just now, but I CAN read. Great volumes of information are free in a public library ..... being as how Cooper's writings are near 60 years old, and so many others have written on the subject ...... it's just one more example that proves to me that "There is little functional difference between those who can not read, and those who do not."....... |
October 18, 2012, 02:18 PM | #75 |
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I am not criticizing those who have greater resources than I, nor those who choose to employ them differently than I. In fact, to an extent, I envy them. I do remember Elmer Keith's comment: I'm always learning (or words to that effect). I also recall some of the books published by Cooper back when I first started reading gun publications in the late 1950s. And by the way, how much longer will his New Technique be...well, never mind.
There was a time also when I was expending much more of my resources than I am on shooting exercises, which contributed to much of my thoughts and opinions on the subject. But priorities do change and other expenses loomed high for a while. So resources were allocated to more important projects. We now have two children who have finished school (from a school named after their great-great-great-great-great grandfather, on their mother's side, you understand). We also just finished marrying one of them off (remember the daughter-got-married thread) and we have zero debt. I probably talk too much about my kids.
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Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds. Last edited by BlueTrain; October 18, 2012 at 02:25 PM. |
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