facing a violent mob when carrying, milwaukee state fair...

[chack]

<<<This is the "TACTICS and TRAINING" forum, not the "Solve the Racial Problems of America" forum.

I've deleted and edited a lot of posts on this thread so it can remain open for discussions about TACTICS and TRAINING relating to the original post.

Commentary on racism, reverse racism, speculation about racial issues as a motivation (sufficient, insufficient or superficial) for mob violence, etc. are off topic. JohnKSa>>>

I know that TFL doesn't like scenario/zombie/SHTF posts, but yesterday there was a real life situation right after the state fair ended where a mob of teens and young men targeted fair goers of a different race in what eyewitnesses described as a "scene out of movie".

http://www.wisn.com/news/28774396/detail.html
http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/126825018.html

There are a couple of points that I'd like to discuss specifically as it regards these attacks.

1) The mob appears to have been loosely organized in that the participants gathered at a central location, waited until the fair was closing, began with series of vandalism and minor assaults and escalated into large scale violent attacks. Eyewitnesses remarked that they felt it building and attempted to notify the security but there was little that they could do.

2) The option to retreat or hole up was effectively removed since the park was closing and security was ushering everyone out. The worst of the attacks occurred outside the park where the security guards weren't at.

<snip>

4) At least 7 people were hospitalized. Every witness account I read related how a lot of people were calling the police and the security there was helpless to do anything.

So the big question is, "How should an armed citizen react if/when they are caught up in a situation like the Milwaukee state fair?"

1) Do you run and hide/escape and hope that you can find a place where you can be secure?

2) Do you go to the assistance of a victim and attempt to stop the attack?

3) Do you draw your weapon without pointing it at anyone?

4) Do you calmly make your way out of the park and hope you aren't attacked?

5) If attacked do you defend yourself and your family (with lethal force if necessary) to avoid a beating.

6) Do you take the beating and hope they don't kick you in the head too much and take your gun?

7) Would your decision be affected if your race was the same as the mob or the victims?

[old bear]

1) Do you run and hide/escape and hope that you can find a place where you can be secure?- If possable

2) Do you go to the assistance of a victim and attempt to stop the attack? -Only if I were alone, Ie. no family to take care of

3) Do you draw your weapon without pointing it at anyone? - NO

4) Do you calmly make your way out of the park and hope you aren't attacked? Best option if I could.

5) If attacked do you defend yourself and your family (with lethal force if necessary) to avoid a beating. - you bet your A$$

6) Do you take the beating and hope they don't kick you in the head too much and take your gun? NEVER

7) Would your decision be affected if your race was the same as the mob or the victims? NO!!

This thug behavior must stop! It's time decent citizens start to take back the streets and stop being afraid to go out and enjoy life.

[Evan Thomas]

It would be helpful to provide a link to a news report on this incident. I don't see how anyone can comment in a way that's very meaningful without some knowledge of the facts.

[Cowboy_mo]

I have to agree with old bear on all points.....

[spacecoast]

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/126828998.html

[BarryLee]

So many variables it is hard to pick one item in your poll.

There were similar incidents in Atlanta during an outdoor movie night in a large park. The events were cancelled and then re-scheduled with increased security and police. So, far there have been no more problems, but really they should have been proactive not reactive and had the increased security to start with. It is difficult to say if these incidents are truly racially motivated or if they are just crimes of convenience.

[teumessian_fox]

You'd have to assume the right to carry a firearm. In some states/some counties it's purely academic.

In other states (mine, for example) you can't come to the aid of anyone to whom you're not related.

If you're attacked by a mob, you have to be reasonably certain that you're in danger of grave bodily harm. Or that someone close (relationally) is in such danger.

<snip>

And that's part of the motivation for these animals, viz. the law and the media are on their side.

[chack]

links added. This isn't really even an isolated incident. The same sort of thing has happened in Chicago and Philidelphia in recent years.

[Ichiban]

Didn't find the answer I wanted so I voted "run & hide."

IMHO the best strategy (if available) would be to retreat to a defensible position away from the mob and wait for the police. If they do come after you then you are in fear of your life/welfare and/or the lives/welfare of any accompanying loved ones. That is my tipping point for using deadly force. Maybe the sound of gunfire will get the cops there sooner.

The race/ethnicity of my attackers is of no importance to me at the point.

[Mobuck]

If I were alone, I'd keep moving away if that was possible while keeping some sort of obstruction on at least one side(like parked cars , a fence, or building).
If actually approached or threatened, I would back against any available cover to prevent being hit from behind and draw my pistol while dialing 911.
If the threat continued, I would verbally warn the attacker(s) trying to make sure it would be heard on the 911 tape.
The next step is to fire at the closest/most dangerous threat. The pistol I carry holds 15 rounds plus at least one extra mag and I have no doubt I can stand my ground against a 180* threat area.
When the dummies start dropping, I am pretty sure the area will clear out quickly. I'm beginning to get the feeling that those who don't carry a firearm may just deserve to become a victim and I would have serious reservations about attempting to protect an able bodied male caught in this scenario. Children or older folks are another situation completely and I definitely would stick my neck out to help them.
To put this into perspective, I'm almost 60 and medium small statured so almost anyone bigger/younger than myself could be considered a serious threat of harm even with only a knife, club, or even fists.

[ltc444]

Chaz made an assumption that if a person went to the aid of a person of a different race, who happened to be of the same race as the bad guys, that he/she would not be attacked by the bad guys.

You cannot depend on that. I rescued a small 10 year old boy (of a race different from mine) from an attack by an 18 year old male of the same race as the boy, 6' 4" and 250 lbs. I was forced to defend the child.

After the incident was concluded, I was confronted by two adult males of the same race as the buy and 18 yo attacker, verbally berated and physcially threatened. It was only after I displayed my badge and weapon did they back off.

I was off duty, performing my band parent duty, at the food stand at a HS football game. Even I was a commissioned LEO with full authority to carry, the school admin banned me from carrying unless I was in uniform.

PS I will retreat with my party and defend if attacked. If I can render aid without endangering myself I will. That is if I don't go into white knight combat mode and then who knows.

[sliponby]

I'm up with Old Bear on his answers.

I wonder if this happened in a shall issue state (I realize Wisc. recently went carry, yea!) if the thugs would have been so brazen. IMHO, from what I know of my fellow Southerners, there would have been some hooligans with holes in 'em littering the ground.

I'm no shoot 'em up cowboy, at least I don't want to be, but I feel that if the thugs started to see their compadres falling and flailing, they'ed start running

[Patriot86]

I would GTFO ASAP

Most SD handguns hold at most 10-15 rounds. Even with a 1-1 hit kill ratio, the mob sounds like it was large enough for 10-15 casualties to not stop it. It was be far to easy to get swarmed while reloading. The best thing you can do is try to "slip under the radar" and sneak out, with your family and only engage the mob if it was a last resort. The sound of gunfire depending on how "enraged" the mob is might be liable to make all eyes focus on you, rather than scatting the crowed. Especially if the group was under the effects of alcohol or drugs.



All that being said, I am a chivalrous SOB. If I saw the mob attacking a child or woman(or worse in that case) I wouldn't hesitate to use whatever force necessary to stop the attack.

[BGutzman]

IMHO you look for whatever is the closest, if you and your family can escape then you do and if you can’t then you look for a secure place. If things get to the point that you have no alternative and it meets the legal requirements then you present and engage the immediate threat.

A mob is a mob and to me it would seem being anywhere in the area would be a threat to life and it would become imminent as the thugs close the distance. Hopefully the red laser on the end of the nose would get the thugs attention as he/she attempt to apply lethal force, if not the round behind the laser will..

It is not a wild west opportunity and force should only be applied as necessary but it may well become necessary...

Sad state of affairs that these things should continue to happen.... Where are the police?

[jason_iowa]

Having worked security at many events such as these and as a former police office ill be the first to tell you security and police coverage is an illusion. Very rarely are the police or private security in the right place at the right time to stop crime. So you do what you need to survive and as a responsible citizen its my belief that you do what you can to protect others as well.

In a situation such as this I would fire upon any armed aggressor. Obviously the best thing you can do is disperse and wait for the cavalry. You don't want to get caught up in a counter mob as mob mentality works both ways. I would also suggest photographing or filming any aggression to use in your defense should you have to use lethal force and to help prosecute aggressors. In this case a picture is worth way more then a witness.

Always remember no matter how many police and security are present no one is more interested in protecting you and your family then YOU are. Keep your radar and situational awareness up and keep in mind that incidents such as this are likely to get worse as the economy gets worse.

[Crazy88Fingers]

As has been mentioned, this has been happening in other cities too. Yet I never see Sharpton or Jackson on their soapboxes detesting these hate crimes. I suppose that's for another forum...

There are a lot of good options in that poll. All I can say is that if I found myself in the headlights, I wouldn't want the yutes to get hold of my loaded gun. So unloading my gun in self-defense would be step number one. If the mob persisted, the gun would pull duty as a blunt object.

[BfloBill]

If I was ever at a public function/park like that I would be with my family and my priority would be to get them to safety. Making a stand and opening fire would be a last resort, the unarmed ones probably would run once you opened up on someone but I would put money on it that there were more than one of them armed.

[Ringolevio]

I wonder: Aren't such events likely to be venues where licensed concealed carry is banned? 'Anybody know?
===========================

jason_iowa:

Having worked security at many events such as these and as a former police office ill be the first to tell you security and police coverage is an illusion. Very rarely are the police or private security in the right place at the right time to stop crime.

Maybe so. But I was for many years a commercial exhibitor at state and county fairs. And two of the roughest that stand out in memory were Detroit and Saginaw, circa 1977 (I've walked some mean streets, but Saginaw is one of the roughest places I've ever been).

There was a good bit of tension even then. But the Michigan State Police had a real presence there, especially after dark and around closing time.

There were plenty of MSPs and they seemed quite capable of handling just about anything. They weren't shy about slapping the bracelets on miscreants, and I heard that every night they grabbed a bunch of illegal guns.

BTW, as I recall they wore Sam Browne rigs with military-type flap holsters in a crossdraw position, and I'm pretty sure they were armed with S&W Model 39s (perhaps someone here knows for sure).

There's a big difference between a large, well-trained and well-equipped team of seasoned, professional LEOs, and a bunch of hired security guards who, at best, don't often have the experience/training working as a team, and so don't constitute a real deterrent.

Similar incidents are on the rise nowadays and the mobs are getting bolder and more violent. Serious police presence is what will discourage these events (preferably including one of the greatest tools for crowd control, equine units).

The alternative is that a) attendance at such events will drop, and b) some armed citizen will find himself in a position where he feels he has no recourse but to shoot his way out.

[Nnobby45]

Asking what one would do in the chaos of mob violence is like knowing in advance what rocks you'll step on when hopping across a stream after someone gave you a push.

[firespec35]

I worked a lot of MI state fairs as EMS and we were really tight with MSP and the contract security there. We never had any incidents of this type but there always was "gang night" which was either the first or second Saturday night and all the gangbangers would come hang out and usually there would be some rap or R&B concert. There were always fights and sometimes huge ones. Like ringo said MSP came out in force for the fairs. Each post would send a detail and the state would put them up in a hotel (the parties were awesome but those stories are not for the internet ) and to top it off there was a pvt security force of at least 100. arrests were common, in recent years at least 1 person got tazed each week but still they came and still they fought. I practically lived there when I worked so my gun was with me.
So my answer to the scenario is. Sorry best bet is to walk softly and carry a big gun. Threaten my life and you get the gun otherwise walk softly and avoid the mob.

[fletchbutt152]

Vanya didn't get up and read his 15 min of news this morning like every good citizen should.

[youngunz4life]

which is probable, I would draw my weapon if approached in a menacing way by this mob. I'm basically cutting thru the bull with this thread or I should say I am getting to the point:

I know that is a worst case scenario for me, as I do not want to have to do that. However, these mobs can be extremely dangerous while others think they're 'fun'. If I had to draw I would, and I would only shoot if I had to. There were people willing to engage the crowd in some form or another to help, but one situation can be manageable while another 10yards away can end up deadly in a mob situation. Please google riverwest mob too: the article mentions the mob from june or july in WI as well

[youngunz4life]

Didn't find the answer I wanted so I voted "run & hide."


IMHO the best strategy (if available) would be to retreat to a defensible position away from the mob and wait for the police. If they do come after you then you are in fear of your life/welfare and/or the lives/welfare of any accompanying loved ones. That is my tipping point for using deadly force. Maybe the sound of gunfire will get the cops there sooner.

the problem is many times when people run or hide they 1)panic, 2)get chased, and/or 3) hide or end up in an area with less exposure which inturn ups the ante if they are then confronted(a more isolated area as an example).

[Mr.Blue]

Here's a good link to the story:

http://www.jsonline.mobi/more/news/1...e&dc=smart&c=y

[BfloBill]

Well said.