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July 15, 2010, 12:16 AM | #1 |
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Police Officers shot by CCWs
Is there information on how many Police Officers have been shot by CCW holders?
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July 15, 2010, 03:31 AM | #2 |
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I have not seen any statistics released.
We know it has happened, unfortunately. But it is quite rare, statistically speaking.
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July 15, 2010, 05:44 AM | #3 |
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Shouldn't you be asking about police officers UNLAWFULLY shot by CCW's?
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July 15, 2010, 06:48 AM | #4 |
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I was trolling over at the Brady Campaign site yesterday (got to keep up with what the crazies are doing) and they actually had a article on crimes committed by people with CCW licenses. I don't trust their data, but, it might be worth a read.
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July 15, 2010, 10:31 AM | #5 | |
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I have read the article. One of the things they neglect to mention as BillCA pointed is:
Quote:
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July 15, 2010, 11:01 AM | #6 |
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Whenever I see the Brady-type lists of criminal acts by CHL holders, my reaction is the same - "meh, so what?"
No one ever promised that no CHL holder would ever commit a criminal act. These stories, while tragic, are no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The important thing is that CHL holders are wildly under-represented in the criminal class. And as long as we're behaving ourselves better than the general public, leave us the hell alone. |
July 15, 2010, 01:24 PM | #7 | |
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July 15, 2010, 04:09 PM | #8 | |
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When people start that line of argument, I interrupt with, "Yeah, isn't that great? Between 10 and 15 million CHL holders in the US, and we still have few enough crimes by them that we can list them individually!" |
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July 15, 2010, 06:23 PM | #9 | |
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Quote:
Last edited by johnwilliamson062; July 15, 2010 at 07:02 PM. |
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July 15, 2010, 11:20 PM | #10 |
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Considering that for many years (and maybe even still today) the Brady group listed anyone shot and killed under the age of 25 (by anyone, including police, and by any firearm) as the "death of a child due to a handgun", I find all of their "data" highly suspect.
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July 15, 2010, 11:28 PM | #11 | ||
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July 15, 2010, 11:39 PM | #12 | |
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The number of police shot by people who have CCWs is 9 according to the BC. Now I haven't read the cases, but I would look at: did the person use the license to help them commit the shooting? If not, it doesn't matter if they had a CPL... in fact it doesn't matter at all, because anyone anywhere can illegally buy a gun and then go shoot a cop. Did the person even use their carry weapon in the crime? A lot of these criminals use rifles or other weapons. Were they carrying illegally? A lot of them are drunk, which is carrying illegal (imagine that, if you make something illegal people will still do it, well damn).
Anyway here is the link: http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/...s-misdeeds.pdf The simple fact that years of murders can be summed up in 35 pages should tell you something. I made a post about this earlier in another thread... after some searching I found it. The following is data from Texas: Quote:
Last edited by Sefner; July 16, 2010 at 10:29 AM. Reason: found actual number of police killings, it is nine, not five as I original thought |
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July 16, 2010, 07:34 AM | #13 |
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Sefner: Thanks for your informative post.
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July 16, 2010, 07:53 AM | #14 | ||
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Did you know that women are less likely to get prostate cancer than the general population? So with the nun example, you can be a felon and be a nun. The two are not mutually exclusive. You never see the comparison between CCW people and their crime rates against the general population of CCW eligible people from the general population who opt not to get a CCW. Do CCW people actually commit less crime than their "equals" in the general population?
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July 16, 2010, 08:08 AM | #15 | ||
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July 16, 2010, 08:17 AM | #16 |
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I suspect that you'd find that there were alot more shootings committed per capita by off duty cops than by CCW holders, despite the favorable prejudice that cops almost always get from other officers.
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July 16, 2010, 09:43 AM | #17 | |
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Still, the point remains that even with "just" seven million CCW holders, the per capita rate of violent crimes among them is miniscule. Even if the nuns pass us up, it won't be by much. |
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July 16, 2010, 10:01 AM | #18 |
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CCW/CHL population is usually older, better educated, better incomes than the general pop.
I haven't seen a study of the gun pop vs. a matched demographic population on crime. Might be out there somewhere. However, even if the crime rates were equally low, it would argue that the presence of the gun per se doesn't lead to aggressive behavior as they drive you crazy. Of course, the demos of that population might be resistant to gun primed aggression. There's a bit of evidence that gun presence in not so charming demographics leads to more aggressiveness. The argument revolves around whether the action of bad people with guns should lead to a prohibition that includes good people with guns.
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July 16, 2010, 10:01 AM | #19 | ||
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It is very true that the statistics are skewed because you cannot be convicted of a crime and then hold a CCW, bringing about a bit of an issue with repeat offenders. But remember, license carriers are by nature law-abiding because they spent sometimes hundreds of dollars to make sure they are following the law when they carry their weapons. The same cannot be said for criminals. That is the argument I make when someone tells me that I just want to shoot the place up, etc etc: That I spent hundreds of dollars and went through various background checks and hours of training to get this license and cannot continue to carry this license if I have a felony conviction. Thus, the fact that I still have one is a pretty good indicator I'm a law abiding citizen. But again, this is not fool proof. Quote:
Statistics are a sticky issue, but we can draw some conclusions from logic. My argument is rarely ever that the CPL population is much less likely to commit a crime because of the fallacy DNS stated. It is much more often that the process, time, money, and hassle one has to go through to ensure that they are following the law when carrying their weapon is a much better indication of their intentions when it comes to committing crimes. |
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July 16, 2010, 11:28 AM | #20 | |
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Let's be honest - there are countless examples of LEO's acting illegally - many even committing criminal assaults and even murders upon citizens. It isn't far-fetched, by any means, to consider that one or more of CCW's shootings of law enforcement officers were fully justified under the self defense laws of the state in which it occurred. How on earth would you sconsider that in the same vein as an illegal shooting? Doesn't make any sense whatsoever. |
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July 17, 2010, 04:42 PM | #21 | |
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July 17, 2010, 05:37 PM | #22 |
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Anecdotal information.
In my time in policing... I've seen only two civilian's shoot a police officer in self defense. In both cases the officers died. Of the two only one was an actual case of self defense, the other was an abuse of the self defense statute. If any one is interested in the particulars. I'll post them later. Glenn |
July 17, 2010, 09:06 PM | #23 | |
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I suggest that with such an infinitesimally small population of CCW's shooting police, each incident could be examined individually and an individual assessment made of the legality of the shooting. And, for the record, the count of LEO's who've committed any number of serious crimes, up to and including multiple murders, is legion. It is, to say the least, outrageous to simply assume that those who've been shot by CCW's are arbitrarily innocent of any wrongdoing without examining the circumstances of each case. |
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July 17, 2010, 10:54 PM | #24 |
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Yea but your not supposed to talk about it. LOL
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July 18, 2010, 12:07 AM | #25 |
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Yeah, you are right I am exposing my own pro CCW and RKBA agenda. I am also exposing my agenda that I believe that approximately 99.9998% of Police Officers do their jobs in such a manner as to not be shot in legitimate self defense by a CCW.
However, you OTOH are exposing your anti-Police mindset when you twist my query in an illogical way |
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