Is a magnum primer really necessary for H110 powder in the .44 Magnum?

[DEDON45]

I've noted in the Speer reloading manual they specify a Magnum (CCI of course) Large Pistol Primer for use with H110 in the .44 Magnum. In the latest Hornady manual, they are using a Winchester WLP Primer in similar loads... I've been loading using Magtech 2 1/2 primers (from what I've seen, functionally equivalent to the Remington 2 1/2 primer) ... just wondering if I'm getting all power I should be getting with the "non magnum" primer. I've had no Misfires, etc... but I have noticed that firing full house handloads (pushing max) loads do not recoil as much as Winchester factory hunting ammo (same grain bullet) does. I don't have a Chrony, (checking velocities would help solve the mystery to be sure) ... could it be the burn rate, etc. with the H110 powder just results in lighter recoil than the Winchester factory Ammo? Is anyone using 2 1/2 (Remington or Magtech) primers in their .44 Mag full house loads?

Thanks for the info guys...

[Ifishsum]

Well, you've kind of proven to yourself that they're not necessary, but slower magnum powders like H110 are harder to ignite, and you should get better performance and ignition consistency with a magnum primer. Magnum primers also have typically thicker cups to reduce primer flow in higher pressure loads, which is an even better reason to use them in your boomers.

I use H110 quite a bit (.357, .41 and .44 mag), always with magnum primers. Never had a reason not to, and my loads are every bit as powerful as the factory stuff. FWIW

[Unclenick]

AFAIK, H110, alias Winchester 296. is what Winchester uses in their factory loads. It is particularly hard to ignite and requires both a magnum primer and a maximum roll crimp to get the start pressure needed for best performance. If you look at the Hodgdon web site (Hodgdon now distributes both H110 and 296) you'll see the warning not to lighten this particular powder by more than 3% from their load data. The reason is it can fail to burn properly when you leave too much case volume, with the result it fizzles all the gas out the barrel-cylinder gap. leaving a bullet stuck in the barrel. That can cause a disastrous subsequent discharge event if the next round does not fizzle. Reducing primer flame duration could do the same thing. It probably would only happen less than one time in a thousand, but there no point in being the one holding the gun when it does.

So, I would follow the recommendation for safety reasons as well as performance. And don't forget the firm crimp.

[FM12]

Only squibs I've ever had in 30 years was with H110/WW296, in .38 special. No combination of crimp/bullets/primers could get them to fire. Works really well in .357 and.44 MAG, though! BUT...I still use mag primers and heavy bullets with heavy roll crimp.

[DEDON45]

Well, I guess the question is.... why doesn't Remington sell a Magnum Large Pistol Primer? I've checked, it's not in their catalog. Could it be they, like the Winchester WLP, are hot enough for magnum loads?

[1tomcat]

I never use powder that requires a magnum primer as my luck with this combo hasnt been all good, I use N110 and 2400 a lot which do not require magnum primers

[DEDON45]

An update... I've emailed the mfg. to see what they say (in this case, Magtech)... and I've decided that I'll probably be getting chronograph, not just to solve this mystery, but for other stuff as well.. I'll post my results when i get them.

[caz223]

After reloading for a number of years, I've found h110 likes magnum primers best.
Therefore, I wouldn't use standard primers, esp in the large size.
In a smaller caliber you may be able to get away with it.
If you don't want to use magnum primers, switch to a different powder.
I'm in the magnum primer camp, even sometimes not where indicated.
For instance 10mm blue dot with heavy bullets.
Load data mostly gives standard primers.
Magnum primers perform MUCH better.
In .357 mag sometimes standard primers have better SD than magnum primers with certain powders. 2400, for example.

[Sarge]

I've burned about a 5 gallon bucket of H110 or W296 over the years and all but maybe a handful has been lit, to my complete satisfaction, by Winchester Large Pistol primers 'for standard or magnum loads'.

[DEDON45]

Yeah, I'm aware that the WLP is recommended for H110 (my Hornady Manual uses them for it's loads)... my question was that since Remington doesn't make a magnum large pistol primer (in the same way that Winchester doesn't), would they be roughly equivalent.

I haven't had a chance to get that chrono yet to test this theory out.

[WESHOOT2]

Repeatable demonstrable fact: Non-'magnum' primers will show erratic velocities on the order of 200--400fps slower.
And erratic.
With H110.
Yep.

(Ws rereading a 1981 44 Magnum load data article where this exact question was once-again, even then, answered with a chronograph).

[Sarge]

Repeatable demonstrable fact: Non-'magnum' primers will show erratic velocities on the order of 200--400fps slower.
And erratic.
With H110.
Yep.

W296 is for all intents and purposes interchangeable with H110, and I've never seen anything like 200-400 fps deviation between shots when using WLP primers with it.

Whatever differences occur between Mag primers and WLP's, it won't make a fart in a hurricane's difference in the way they shoot.



By the third six I had all shots either on or cutting the red aiming point. They are highlighted in yellow and comprise a group of about six inches. The stray shots you see were most assuredly the fault of the operator, and not the primers.

[Al Norris]

Might as well add my 2 cents....

I use H110 and H4224 pretty regularly. Most load manuals will specify LPM primers for these two powders.

The only time I have seen a difference (and when I will use large pistol magnum primers) is when the temp drops below 0 degrees Fahrenheit. Other than that, I use almost exclusively, WLP primers for my .44's.

[Ozzieman]

For me H110 always gets a mag primer. In my Contender I use magnum rifle primers.
Do a simple test.
Take two of the same cases and load one with a standard primer and one with a mag primer.
Use the same manufacture and mark the mag some how.
Nothing else, no powder no bullet and fire them. Place them in the chamber of a revolver directly across from each other (6 o’clock and 12) and close your eyes and spin the chamber and close it so that you don’t know which is the mag vs. standard.
And fire them.
And make up your own mind on which you want to use for hard igniting powder.

[DEDON45]

Well, an update is in order...

Emailed Magtech, their response was:

“According to our ballistic manager, the customer can use our 2 ½ primer with no problem, as it has enough energy to initiate the propellant.”

Then I was poking through the little Hodgdon Reloading Manual (not the big one, the little booklet one you get with Lyman products, came with my Case trimmer) ... and it shows their H110 Loads for .44 Magnum using a Remington 2 1/2 (what the Magtech primer is modeled after, even uses the same description) primer to light them off.

I feel pretty positive that I'm fine with the Magtech LP primers, based on these... I still haven't gotten a chronograph, but I'm going to the range at about 3:00PM today, and will have six rounds in hand loaded with CCI Magnum primers to compare with my Magtech loads (24 Grains of H110 behind a Hornady 240Grain XTP bullet -- yeah, it's max--in most manuals, anyway--but no pressure signs in my Ruger) to see if I can see any difference...

[LHB1]

I was told by the people at Hodgdon that H110 and W296 are the same powder, packaged and sold under two different names by two different companies. That being said, I have loaded and fired a LOT of W296 over a period of 10-12 years using Win LP primers with no ignition problems or extreme velocity variations detected by my Oehler chrono. Cannot speak for Rem or CCI primers as I haven't used them since about 1975 when I switched to WLP's.

[azredhawk44]

I feel pretty positive that I'm fine with the Magtech LP primers, based on these... I still haven't gotten a chronograph, but I'm going to the range at about 3:00PM today, and will have six rounds in hand loaded with CCI Magnum primers to compare with my Magtech loads (24 Grains of H110 behind a Hornady 240Grain XTP bullet -- yeah, it's max--in most manuals, anyway--but no pressure signs in my Ruger) to see if I can see any difference...

FYI, H110 and Win296 are not supposed to be much at all below maximum listed charges. 3% is permissible as stated above, but too much below and you get weak ignitions or detonation (gun grenade).

24 grains of H110 means exactly that... 24 grains. Subtract 3% and you get 23.3 grains or thereabouts, but to be safe I would just stay right at 24gr, especially with a Ruger platform. This is a case where "more" seems to actually be safer than "less."

Regarding primers, I've heard that Winchester large pistol primers are hotter than other standard large pistol primers and are reliable for magnum loads, whereas CCI are a bit "cooler" unless you deliberately buy the magnums they offer.

Never used Magtech or Remington so I have nothing to offer to augment what their rep told you, but I find it very believeable that they might have the same philosophy to primers as Winchester.

[TargetTerror]

I had a squib with a reduced H110 load 357 magnum with standard primers. the heat was out in my clubs indoor range, and as it was winter in new England, it was very chilly in there. I've always used a magnum primer and full house loads with H110 since then.

[WESHOOT2]

Winchester states their WLP as 'suitable for Magnum loads'.

[DEDON45]

Yeah, I read the part in the little hodgdon manual that said that H110 should not be loaded anywhere under 3% under max... I've been abiding by that. The charge "range" shown in the Hornady manual I have reflects that. I started about 2 grains under max, and worked up... I'm firing these in a Ruger Super Redhawk, so I had little concern about approaching max in this gun, given it's (well deserved) reputation for strength. My shooting buddy has a Ruger Super Blackhawk, he runs the same loads I do, but uses WLP primers... seem to feel exactly the same, when we swap ammo we hit the same spots on the target; so I feel even better about the Magtech / Remington 2 1/2 primer. I still do have some CCI Mag primers, for grins, and will see what that looks like; I suspect I'll see very little difference.

[DEDON45]

Yes, this thread is back from the dead! I got a new Chronograph (Competition Electronics Digital Pro... got it for 90.00, pretty good deal) and have conducted some "scientific" tests...

I bought some CCI Magnum Large pistol primers, and loaded up 12 rounds with 24 grains of H110, mixed cases (Winchester and PMC), and Hornady 240 grain XTP bullets... did them with the same setup on my LnL AP that I used to load up my other rounds with Magtech primers... also had my buddy with me who used the same bullets, same mixed cases, same charge, but he uses WLP primers exclusively. As an experiment, he also loaded some up with some CCI non-magnum pistol primers he had. Testing was done using his Ruger Blackhawk (6 1/2 barrel) and my Ruger Super Redhawk (it has a 8 1/2 or 9 inch barrel)

My Redhawk showed an average of 1448fps, and an extreme spread of 34fps, for the load with Magtech primers. Same gun, using the CCI Magnum primers, showed an average of 1475fps, with an extreme spread of 44fps. I repeated the test a few times, came up with similar numbers every time. So, while I get more fps with the CCI Magnum primer, I got less consistency... strange.

My buddy then tested the same load, with WLP primers... (his barrel is shorter, thus the lower overall speeds) He got an average of 1290fps, with an extreme spread of 56fps (not sure what that's about, he loads on a older Lyman turret press, while I load on a Hornady LnL AP, at a much faster rate). He also tried out those loads with some CCI 300 primers, got an average of 1335fps (faster!) and an extreme spread of 28fps. Again, these kind of results were repeatable...

My conclusion: There's nothing wrong with using the Magtech 2 1/2 primers in full-house .44 Magnum loads, and even non-magnum CCI primers are more consistent than WLPs... We also tested my .45ACP reloads (I loaded him up a few boxes while we were waiting on his new dies to get here) with both WLP and Magtech primers.... the Magtech loads ended up being more consistent than WLP-primed loads. Not by a lot, but they were more consistent... To put it mildly I was rather surprised, given that the Magtech's are somewhat less expensive than the Winchester primers. The only other factor I can think of that may be an issue with the full-house .44 Magnum loads is temperature; that is, how well do these different primers function at low temperatures. I think next time I'm going to put some rounds in a cooler and try them to see what happens.

Of course, this doesn't mean that the WLPs won't be better in some other load combination or another caliber; but for my .45ACP loads (HS-6 and some AA#5) and .44 Magnum (H110) loads, it isn't.

[TargetTerror]

Thanks for posting your results! i agree that temperature is a major factor. but most important (at least for me) is ignition in lower temperatures. Trust me, a squib will ruin your day fast, particularly if you don't notice and pull the trigger again with a full-house 44 magnum load...

[DEDON45]

I hear you... but given my results seem to indicate more consistent ignition with the magtechs than even the magnum CCI's (and WLPs, even), I think I'll be fine... I do plan to experiment with using some rounds that are cooled off a bit to see... I suspect I'll find that I'll have no issues.

[Al Norris]

DEDON45, if you're going to simulate a cold weather test, put your pistol in the deep freeze also. Otherwise, those cold cartridges, placed in a warm gun, will begin to heat up almost immediately.

[minnfinn]

No, Remington 2 1/2 is Large Pistol Primer (not magnum) that's the primer Hodgdon reloading booklet recommends with their H110 powder for .44 mag pistol load. The only reloading manual between Hodgdon, Nosler, Hornady and Speer to mention other than Large Pistol primers is Speer, which says CCI 300 or 350 with H110 for .44 mag.
I stick with Hodgdon's recommendations, because Remington 2 1/2 consistently fires in my Ruger Redhawk on DA. I had a little problem with another manufacturers primer on this revolver. Since then I've put many hundred of rounds through with consistent performance.